INDIA- HELICOPTER Competitions::News and Discussions

[Abingdonboy]

i think Indians are interested in Apache & in Chinooks
both are best and highly advance than Russian
Russian are far behind USA in defense field if India need really advance helo than Apache is best but mi-28 with western avionics make the competition tough.
Chinooks are best relief operation helicopter in the world
for Ur information it really help Pakistan during earthquake time in 2005 & during flood in 2010
our news papers called him hero of relief operations.
so Indians are also need Chinooks not mi-26 which is too big.
Pakistan is also request to USA for ch-47d for Pakistan army for the operations
but we are interested in cobra ah-1z which is comparable to Apache block-3

There is no way the Super Cobra is even comparable to the Apache Blk.3. Th Bell was in this tender but pulled out because it couldn't compete with Apache. Just admit India is to receive something better than you.

 

[angeldemon_007]

The infos on IMRH looks more like a complete new development and I also hope that they will opt for a NG tech helicopter development, with Russians, or Europeans and not just develop another normal helicopter.

No it does not. HAL was earlier looking for a partner and they even finalized 2 : Eurocopter Cougar and Mil Mi17. But they decided to cancel the project at that moment as armed forces requirement changed. Now HAL might go alone and if that happens we will get a bigger version of Dhruv but they might also go for a partner and if that happens again Eurocopter and Mil might be the last choice.

I am 100% sure that we will not go for any future design unless Russians offer us a partnership.

The Kamov Ka 92 would be a perfect co-development project for us and however such developments takes much time, stretching the Dhruv seems to be easier and preferable instead of procuring foreign helicopters.

If it was upto me i would say we should go for both Ka 90 and Ka92 but i am sure we won't be going for those. Funny thing is, there is a huge chance that HAL will go for 1970s design of Mi17 which apparently was finalist last time. But there is a chance that Russia might not go for this deal if Mil is selected because Russia has its own plans and it won't spend a penny or any time to work on an outdated design. Then its possible that Russians might offer a partnership with any of the two finalist which would be winner in their competition.

 

[angeldemon_007]

Buddy, all these things you pointed out here, are done with Dhruv, or Mi 17 class helicopters, not with heavy lift helicopters like Mi 26. That's exactly why I meant, that we have numbers of Mi 17s now as the base (another 139 on order), so be it the Chinook, or the Mi 26, none of them will be used for these roles and that's why really high numbers are not needed.

Buddy the IA right now is operating around 40-50 Dhruv and IA is using IAF's Mi17. We have a army of 1.1 million but our army operate around 200 helos and they are not transport chopper except 40-50 odd dhruv.

Situation is definitely changing with more orders of Dhruv but Dhruv is like for special operation. i am talking about in the real war like situation when we will be required to mobilize quickly and in large numbers so as to safe some critical forward base we are in no way prepared to protect our own land.

Just imagine next time if Chinese army decides to infiltrate but this time they decides not to leave the area then how are expecting our forces to respond ? Chinese have roads and railways on their side while it takes around 48-72 hours to reach most of our forward bases on foot. Its common everywhere. Not just in NE but also in J&K, Uttranchal and Himachal.

You said all that i have mentioned is being taken care of by Dhruv and Mi17. Not even 15 helicopters are participating in anti-naxal operation spreading around 180 districts in ten states of India.

BSF operates only around 9 helos while they operate in desert, mountains, snow-covered areas and heavy rain-forest and they are not just involved in guarding almost the entire indian border but also anti-naxal operations and anti-terrorist operations in JnK. With a strength of 240,000 personnel in 186 battalions, BSF operates only 9 choppers.

As far as role of Mi26 is concerned its upto our forces. Mi26 can carry around 90 troops with a speed of 255kmph. IA will soon be purchasing 145 M777 and 300 light tanks which is mainly meant for new battalions being set up for NE. If not for transporting troops we sure need 50-100 of these choppers so as to transport these things in deadly terrains of NE because i highly doubt we will be air dropping them in through C17s.

Eurofighter? According recent reports the Mi 17s belongs to the most reliable helicopters in IAF fleet and it will be sold in high numbers, altough it is that old.

You know it. Our latest Dhruv mk3 is even more advanced than Russian Mi17(I am not sure about latest Mi17). IAF and IA are talking about network centric warfare but they still wanna work with old USSR weapons which even Russian army has declared unfit for war. If you will look at other choppers in Mi17 category, then you will find that they are better than Mi17. IAF hass not operated any chopper other than Mi17 thats why they like it. Let the first batch of AW101 arrive and you will see how IAF will realise what they are missing. AW101 is one the best chopper in this category.

Again, it depends on what roles they are aimed on. The LCH will be the attack helicopter next to the Dhruv WSI and that in high numbers, the Apache/Mi 28 is just a replacement on the higher end, probably with special roles and capabilities.

Agreed and LCH will still be the main attack helo in IA fleet but my question still remains the same. Ok, if it was upto you, where will you station 22 Apaches ?
Also i don't really care now much about attack helos because after all these deals (LCH, Dhruv WSI, Apache), India will be operating maximum number of attack helos in Asia. My real concern is transport choppers. We are fighting on many fronts within our own country. There are areas in Chattisgarh were our forces has never kept foot.
The situation is really bad but its our point of view. Our forces are fighting right now, they were fighting before also and they will fight in future also but we have a choice by using these basic things we can ensure quick control over the problem with limited loss of life but it appears nobody cares about life of a armed personnel. The induction of LUH is really a great move as it will help in increasing the surveillance.

 

[angeldemon_007]

Personally, it looks damn ugly, but I guess performance is more important than looks right?

Your stretched version looks a bit sexier.

Changes:

- stretched cabine
- larger doors, possible locations for guns [this is what is important for dhruv to be used in SAR operation]
- seats for up to 20 passangers
- increased internal fuel + possibility to add external fuel tanks
- more powerful Shakti engine
- FLIR pod of the Dhruv WSI, or LCH, but integrated below the nose
- maritime surveillance radar

You are forgetting better landing gears and fold-able blades otherwise IN will again say no. I would also add weapons to it just like other choppers on your list.

 

[sancho]

If it was upto me i would say we should go for both Ka 90 and Ka92 but i am sure we won't be going for those. Funny thing is, there is a huge chance that HAL will go for 1970s design of Mi17 which apparently was finalist last time. But there is a chance that Russia might not go for this deal if Mil is selected because Russia has its own plans and it won't spend a penny or any time to work on an outdated design. Then its possible that Russians might offer a partnership with any of the two finalist which would be winner in their competition.

The Russians already developing the successor of the Mi 17, the Mi 38:

But it's a conventional design, while the Ka 92 would be in the same weightclass, but with some changes (a ramp and the pusher rotors on each side of the airframe) would be way better for transport roles, because it offers the speed and range of comparable fixed wing aircrafts. That makes it similar to the V22, but an easier concept which should be cheaper as well.

You are forgetting better landing gears and fold-able blades otherwise IN will again say no. I would also add weapons to it just like other choppers on your list.

Not sure if the ASW Dhruv already had folding blades, but I guess that was in the proposal anyway, just like different weapons. Dhruv ASW can basically use anything what the WSI, or the LCH uses as well and especially Helina would be interesing as well, when the mission is to attack smaller patrol boats.

 

[sancho]

Buddy the IA right now is operating around 40-50 Dhruv and IA is using IAF's Mi17. We have a army of 1.1 million but our army operate around 200 helos and they are not transport chopper except 40-50 odd dhruv.

True, but as mentioned, that has nothing to do with the heavy lift requirement of the Mi 26/ Chinook, because they will be used in these roles only in special missions during war times, while that is the prime role of the Mi 17s anyway. If IA, or IAF should take care of the Mi 17 fleet in general is a different issue, but troop transport is defenitely not a point to procure high numbers of Mi 26. Also the M777 howitzers can be lifted by Mi 17s as well, because they can lift up to 5t of external cargo.
That's actually the reason why I want the Mi 26, because the Mi 17 is already highly capable and only the Mi 26 would make a clear difference in terms of heavy lifting capacity, while the Chinook is somewhere in between only.

Our latest Dhruv mk3 is even more advanced than Russian Mi17(I am not sure about latest Mi17). IAF and IA are talking about network centric warfare but they still wanna work with old USSR weapons which even Russian army has declared unfit for war. If you will look at other choppers in Mi17 category, then you will find that they are better than Mi17. IAF hass not operated any chopper other than Mi17 thats why they like it. Let the first batch of AW101 arrive and you will see how IAF will realise what they are missing. AW101 is one the best chopper in this category.

True, there are helis that are more advanced now, but the Mi 17 is undeniable a great transport heli. It is cheap, rugged and very suiting to our climate and hights, for the moment they are the best choice to transport troops and light to medum cargo.

Ok, if it was upto you, where will you station 22 Apaches ?

By the fact that they are replacing the Mi 35s, they should be stationed at the same bases don't you think?
According to BR, that would be in Suratgarh and Pathankot (Sq. 104 and 125):

B-R.com/IAF/Units/Squadrons/292-Squadrons.html

 

[sancho]

Mi 26 at Maks 2011:

And to get an idea of the size of this beast, A50 in the back and Mi 17, 28, Ka 52... in the front:

 

[saumyasupratik]

A few Russian Helicopters at MAKS 2011

 

[Abingdonboy]

Mi 26 at Maks 2011:

And to get an idea of the size of this beast, A50 in the back and Mi 17, 28, Ka 52... in the front:

Biggest is not always best- the IAF needs to decide whether they want a tactical transport like the Chinook or a huge lifter like Mi-26 that is next to useless in times of war. Added to that the IAF have already had their fingers burnt operating the Mi-26 due to poor and lack of access to spares. The entire Indian define establishment is awakening to the fact that Russian kit has serious downfall in after care support and maintenance that outweighs the cheap initial cost. Look at MMRCA for proof.



+ any idea why the Ka-52 isn't in the tender anymore? seems like it outclasses the Havoc. Still believe Apache would/will win though. I am utterly sick of constant delays in Russian equipment deliveries and "shadow costs" that emerge after handing over to India. The way they treat India in no way mirrors all the big talk of closest and most trusted allies despite the BILLIONS india has pumped into them in the last decades. At least with US/Europeans you know what you're getting and when and that you will be looked after.

 

[sancho]

Biggest is not always best- the IAF needs to decide whether they want a tactical transport like the Chinook or a huge lifter like Mi-26 that is next to useless in times of war.

There is no tactical aim behind this procurement, because it's meant to replace older Mi 26 in the heavy lift role and not Mi 8/17s in troop transport, SAR...
Here are some example from the operational history of the Mi 26 in IAF so far, which should tell you what roles they are meant for:

- During the Kargil Operations, two Mi-26s logged about 25 hours airlifting heavy equipment and guns to the Kargil area.

- In July 2005, a Helicopter of the unit landing at Rampur in Himachal Pradesh was damaged after the rotor got entangled in high tension electrical cables. The aircraft was being used in helilifting heavy road building equipment in the area.

- One Mi-26 (Z3076) was written off after it crashed at Jammu airport on 14 Dec 2010. It was involved in the heavy lift of tunneling equipment for the Northern Railways. The crew escaped with injuries. This was the first and till date the only major airframe loss for the Mi-26 in nearly 25 years of service.

- The Mi-26s have been utilised in the sky-crane role over the years.

- Feb 89, MI-26 helicopter undertook the only of its kind underslung operation taking Pontoon bridge form Ludhiana to Sirhind canal.

- Early 1999, a crashed MiG-21 was airlifted by the Unit to Chandigarh.

- 21 Nov 2001, the Mi-8 which crashed in the Rann of Kutch was helilifted by the Mi-26s to Bhuj.

- 2002, a MiG-21 Bison which crashed in the fields near Ambala was airlifted by the Unit to Ambala Air Force Station.

- In Jul 2002 the Mi-26 recovered the first civilian aircraft (Beechcraft), which had met with an accident at Kangra airfield. Another first was achieved as the unit flew the longest ever underslung flight (3:15 hrs).

- 22 Feb 2006 - An Mi-26 flown by the CO, Wg Cdr Sushil Ghera, airlifted an Mi-17 that forcelanded in a river bed a few days earlier to Chandigarh Air Force Station.

-Sept 2007 - Mi-17 1V airlifted from Bandipore to Awantipura

-In 2010, the helicopter was actively used to lift heavy equipment for the Katra-Quazigand Railway project providing rail connectivity to the Srinagar Valley.

So be it the new Mi 26T2, or the Chinook, the main purpose is lifting heavy cargo (skycrane) role, especialy in, or to areas where other helicopters, or aircrafts can't be deployed!
In this case, bigger is indeed better, because the Mi 26T2 can carry way bigger and heavier loads internal and external and you are highly mistaken about it's use in war times mate:

MI-26 is back to covertly perform an indispensable task

Fri Oct 01 1999 IST


CHANDIGARH, Sept 30: In the middle of the night, as guns spewed fire across the Line of Control in the Kargil sector during Operation Vijay, a gigantic MI-26 heavy lift helicopter discreetly lifted off from the tarmac at the Chandigarh Air Force Station to quietly off-load vital equipment somewhere in the Northern Sector.

Two strategic aspects of the sortie are that nowhere in the world have choppers the size of the MI-26 -- the world's largest -- flown to such altitude, and, as per IAF stipulations, helicopters are not allowed to fly in mountains at night.

A similar sortie was undertaken again some time later, which also went unnoticed. Though IAF officers refuse to disclose what exactly they airlifted, the load, obviously would have been heavy weapons, beyond the capability of other IAF choppers, and that which were required urgently...


...Though the role of the MI-26s during Operation Vijay had been limited but indispensable, it is now that their tremendous power and airlift capability is being put to use. While carrying out logistic support during the operations the MI-26 had logged about 25 flying hours.

Sources say that certain heavy weapons and other equipment being positioned in the Kargil sector would have to be airlifted by the MI-26. Just this month, it airlifted bulldozers to that sector, in addition to transporting "several 100 tonnes" of military equipment since the war...

Added to that the IAF have already had their fingers burnt operating the Mi-26 due to poor and lack of access to spares. The entire Indian define establishment is awakening to the fact that Russian kit has serious downfall in after care support and maintenance that outweighs the cheap initial cost. Look at MMRCA for proof.

It's true that the Mi 26 had spare issues and was costly to operate in the past, but especially the earlier problem can be fixed by better planing, possibly change of suppliers (Indian, or western counterparts), while from an operational point of view it simply offers unique capabilities that the Chinook can't match.
And you are mistaken if you believe that IAF is unhappy with Russian arms and techs, the Mig was rejected because of beeing not capable enough compared to the competitors and because air chief Naik itself said that they don't want to put all eggs in one basket. On the other side, they are ordering more and more Mi 17s (which according to them are very reliable!), more MKIs and more A50 AWACS as well, so it's actually the opposite isn't it?
As mentioned above, in the 25 years of service only a single Mi 26 was lost which speaks for it's reliability as well, especially when we keep in mind the problems with spares, so the bottom line is, when we can handle the spare problem we get a reliable, proven and the most capable heavy lift helicopter.

 

[Abingdonboy]

There is no tactical aim behind this procurement, because it's meant to replace older Mi 26 in the heavy lift role and not Mi 8/17s in troop transport, SAR...
Here are some example from the operational history of the Mi 26 in IAF so far, which should tell you what roles they are meant for:




So be it the new Mi 26T2, or the Chinook, the main purpose is lifting heavy cargo (skycrane) role, especialy in, or to areas where other helicopters, or aircrafts can't be deployed!
In this case, bigger is indeed better, because the Mi 26T2 can carry way bigger and heavier loads internal and external and you are highly mistaken about it's use in war times mate:






It's true that the Mi 26 had spare issues and was costly to operate in the past, but especially the earlier problem can be fixed by better planing, possibly change of suppliers (Indian, or western counterparts), while from an operational point of view it simply offers unique capabilities that the Chinook can't match.
And you are mistaken if you believe that IAF is unhappy with Russian arms and techs, the Mig was rejected because of beeing not capable enough compared to the competitors and because air chief Naik itself said that they don't want to put all eggs in one basket. On the other side, they are ordering more and more Mi 17s (which according to them are very reliable!), more MKIs and more A50 AWACS as well, so it's actually the opposite isn't it?
As mentioned above, in the 25 years of service only a single Mi 26 was lost which speaks for it's reliability as well, especially when we keep in mind the problems with spares, so the bottom line is, when we can handle the spare problem we get a reliable, proven and the most capable heavy lift helicopter.

Yes reliable because the helo is on the ground most of the time so there is very little risk of crashs. And if India sighns this deal we have no idea when it will be delivered. Look at Mil-17VI deal, was supposed to be delivered early 2011, it is now lat August and still NO SIGN!! You can have the best helos in the world but if you deliver constanly late than what's the point? India doesn't need this headache anymore and can afford much better equipment from much more reliable partners.

 

[saumyasupratik]

In my opinion the Mi-26T2 is a better option for the IAF.The CH-47 should be for the Army Aviation Corps.The CH-47's are perfect for transporting the M777 howitzers.

 

[Dash]

The way Rosoboronexport for Kamovs, Tupolevs and Ilyushin aircraft in the Indian navy inventory. A simila arrangement can be done for Mils I guess. Russian spares wont be a problem after this.

Mi26 is a much better heli, compared to Chinook in terms of price, flexibility and agility..

 

[Zabaniyah]

Damn, those Mi-26s are huge. Big is beautiful

 

[brational]

Damn, those Mi-26s are huge. Big is beautiful

I have a business plan..