INDIA- HELICOPTER Competitions::News and Discussions

[Kinetic]

The deal also include...

50 T700-GE-701D engines
12 AN/APG-78 fire control radar
12 AN/APR-48A radar frequency interferometer
814 AGM-114L-3 Hellfire Longbow missiles
542 AGM-114R-3 Hellfire II missiles
245 Stinger I-92H missiles
24 Mordernised target acquisition designation sight/Pilot night vision sensors


And all other training, simulators, ammunition, dummy missiles, logistical equipments etc.

 

[angeldemon_007]

Finally some movement on this..I guess a decision will be taken by mid-11 for both attack as well as Lift Helicopters..

No movement yet Jha Sahab.... I don't know whether US has even allowed this sale yet??/

 

[Kinetic]

No movement yet Jha Sahab.... I don't know whether US has even allowed this sale yet??/

DSCA notification mean green signal. Also if AH-64D block-III is selected it will be Govt-to-govt sale as mentioned in the notice. There is no question of any blocking.

 

[jha]

No movement yet Jha Sahab.... I don't know whether US has even allowed this sale yet??/

This notification means : Green Signal ( almost )..
I have a feeling that this no. will be increased because i have doubt on HAL sticking to schedule and delivering LCH..

 

[Kinetic]

This notification means : Green Signal ( almost )..
I have a feeling that this no. will be increased because i have doubt on HAL sticking to schedule and delivering LCH..

I also think that the number will be increased but there is no relation between LCH and AH-64D as both are different in many ways. Also LCH is on full track. They will go for IOC in December 2011 or by early 2012. That means first flight to IOC with in les than two years. that is also great achievement. Army and Air force orders are confirmed for LCH.

 

[indushek]

I also think that the number will be increased but there is no relation between LCH and AH-64D as both are different in many ways. Also LCH is on full track. They will go for IOC in December 2011 or by early 2012. That means first flight to IOC with in les than two years. that is also great achievement. Army and Air force orders are confirmed for LCH.

NO official confirmation and u guys seem to be decided that we are going for Block III already!!! How can u say that please tell me??

 

[KS]

NO official confirmation and u guys seem to be decided that we are going for Block III already!!! How can u say that please tell me??

WASHINGTON, December 27, 2010 – The Defense Security Cooperation Agency notified Congress on December 22 of a possible Foreign Military Sale to the Government of India of various engines, equipment, weapons, training, parts and logistical support for a possible Direct Commercial Sale of 22 AH-64D Block III Apache helicopters. The complete package is worth approximately $1.4 billion.

From the link Sancho posted.

 

[Kinetic]

With those missiles AH-64D block III will get lots of fire power. The combination of Longbow radar, AN/APR-48A Radar Frequency Interferometer Electronic Support target acquisition system and AGM-114L-3 Hellfire Longbow missiles along with AGM-114R Hellfire II and Stinger 92H will be deadly.

AGM-114L-3 Hellfire Longbow is a millimeter wave radar guided missile while AGM-114R Hellfire II is a semi-active radar guided missile. Both as 8 km range. Stinger Block I-92H is an air-to-air missile.

 

[sancho]

I would say there are some interesting points for us to discuss guys! I agree with Sudhir that the number of weapons are way too much for these small numbers of Apaches, so what does it mean? Also interesting are the facts, that only 12 of those 22 will get the mast mounted radar equipment and that there are now hydra rocket pods included into the package. But the most important point is the total cost of the deal, because as I often said before, normally the Apache does not fit into the budget that was reported in the media.

So one by one, the high numbers of Hellfire missiles don't have to hint for an increased order, but also could mean that we will integrate them into LCH too. Remember, the US proposed this missile for LCH before and HELINA (air launched NAG) is not ready as far as I know, that means Hellfire could be a dual use weapon for Apaches and LCH.

The low number of radars are a downer imo, because the combo of these and the netcentric capabilities should be an excellent addition in mixed squadrons of Apaches and LCH.

The weapon package as a whole also shows that they are aimed on the anti tank role mainly and possibly on countering low flying UAVs, but the fire support role will be diverted to LCH and that's why not IA, but IAF will get these Apaches.

Last but not least the costs, many articles said that the total budget for 22 x combat and 15 x heavy lift helicopters is $2 billions, but if these Apaches already cost that much, is there enough left to buy the 15 x HLHs?

 

[jha]

I would say there are some interesting points for us to discuss guys! I agree with Sudhir that the number of weapons are way too much for these small numbers of Apaches, so what does it mean? Also interesting are the facts, that only 12 of those 22 will get the mast mounted radar equipment and that there are now hydra rocket pods included into the package. But the most important point is the total cost of the deal, because as I often said before, normally the Apache does not fit into the budget that was reported in the media.

So one by one, the high numbers of Hellfire missiles don't have to hint for an increased order, but also could mean that we will integrate them into LCH too. Remember, the US proposed this missile for LCH before and HELINA (air launched NAG) is not ready as far as I know, that means Hellfire could be a dual use weapon for Apaches and LCH.

The low number of radars are a downer imo, because the combo of these and the netcentric capabilities should be an excellent addition in mixed squadrons of Apaches and LCH.

The weapon package as a whole also shows that they are aimed on the anti tank role mainly and possibly on countering low flying UAVs, but the fire support role will be diverted to LCH and that's why not IA, but IAF will get these Apaches.

Last but not least the costs, many articles said that the total budget for 22 x combat and 15 x heavy lift helicopters is $2 billions, but if these Apaches already cost that much, is there enough left to buy the 15 x HLHs?

Yes..The high no. of Hellfire is most probably for LCH also..Which is infact a boon to the program..A tested missile on a new platform will obviously better than a new weapon system on a new helicopter..
However the no. of Fire control Radar is obviously a matter of concern..However in the mean time lets hope that HELINA turns out to be same as was promised..

 

[Kinetic]

I would say there are some interesting points for us to discuss guys! I agree with Sudhir that the number of weapons are way too much for these small numbers of Apaches, so what does it mean? Also interesting are the facts, that only 12 of those 22 will get the mast mounted radar equipment and that there are now hydra rocket pods included into the package. But the most important point is the total cost of the deal, because as I often said before, normally the Apache does not fit into the budget that was reported in the media.

Sancho I think the 12 radars are extra, in addition to those already mounted on 22 AH-64D. All the listed systems will be bought in conjunction with the choppers as spares.

If the Government of India selects the Boeing-U.S. Army proposal, the Government of India will request a possible sale of 50 T700-GE-701D engines, 12 AN/APG-78 Fire Control Radars, 12 AN/APR-48A Radar Frequency Interferometers, 812 AGM-114L-3 HELLFIRE LONGBOW missiles, 542 AGM-114R-3 HELLFIRE II missiles, 245 STINGER Block I-92H missiles, and 23 Modernized Target Acquisition Designation Sight/Pilot Night Vision Sensors, rockets, training and dummy missiles, 30mm ammunition, transponders, simulators, global positioning system/inertial navigation systems, communication equipment, spare and repair parts; tools and test equipment, support equipment, repair and return support, personnel training and training equipment; publications and technical documentation, U.S. Government and contractor engineering and logistics support services; and other related elements of logistics support to be provided in conjunction with a proposed direct commercial sale of 22 AH-64D Block III APACHE Helicopters. The estimated cost is $1.4 billion.

 

[sancho]

Yes..The high no. of Hellfire is most probably for LCH also..Which is infact a boon to the program..A tested missile on a new platform will obviously better than a new weapon system on a new helicopter..
However the no. of Fire control Radar is obviously a matter of concern..However in the mean time lets hope that HELINA turns out to be same as was promised..

Of course Hellfire is not a bad choice, although I guess Spike was on offer too, but possibly more costly. However, as a stop gap, or alternative these foreign missiles are a good choice.

Sancho I think the 12 radars are extra, in addition to those already mounted on 22 AH-64D. All the listed systems will be bought in conjunction with the choppers as spares.

I have some doubts about that, because the number of engines mentioned in the paper is 50, which translates into 44 (2 each Apache)+ 6 extra in reserve.
The conjunction part is meant to the service and logistics as far as I understands it.

 

[sudhir007]

hi sancho so why we are not aiming for a2a mode in this package we are not getting any shorter range a2a missile like AIM-9X sidewinder. and can you tell me what are the role of stinger missile ?????

The weapon package as a whole also shows that they are aimed on the anti tank role mainly and possibly on countering low flying UAVs, but the fire support role will be diverted to LCH and that's why not IA, but IAF will get these Apaches.

 

[jha]

hi sancho so why we are not aiming for a2a mode in this package we are not getting any shorter range a2a missile like AIM-9X sidewinder. and can you tell me what are the role of stinger missile ?????

I guess Stinger is for that role..Integrating Sidewinder will not be a wise idea..

 

[sancho]

hi sancho so why we are not aiming for a2a mode in this package we are not getting any shorter range a2a missile like AIM-9X sidewinder. and can you tell me what are the role of stinger missile ?????

Like Jha said, the Stinger missiles that are part of the weapon package, are meant for the A2A role and will be used against other helicopters, or UAVs mainly. AIM9, or other SR AAMs are way heavier, which makes Stingers more useful for helicopters, or armed UAVs.

AIM-92 Stinger - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Launch weight : 16 kg

AIM-9 Sidewinder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Weight 86.2 kg