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India has tech for nuclear warships

Technological development is necessary, but less should be spent on military and more to improve the quality of life of average citizens. When 40% of Indians earn $1 or less, I cannot really praise when that country wastes money on nuclear armaments. It does not bring prestige to India. In Bengali we say Gariber Ghora Rog or a poor man's indulgence in horse racing.

I think the latest feat by India will start a dangerous arms race in the Sub-continent.
i respect your opinion.but for a country like india it is must to keep its defence equipped with modern weapon system as much as possible.yes i do agree that there should be a balance in its expenditure among defence and development.mmmm i,d say we r doing pretty good. well not as good as communist china.but as said it is after all COMMUNIST CHINA and as for the ARMS RACE what do you expect from india.to stay with old weapon system so that the rest dont start an arms race. this very reason lead the britishers to rule over us.we cant afford to stay behind.:guns:
 
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Like many of us (Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, Sri Lankans and Chinese) have told you guys over and over -- we don't view you Indians as enemies (perhaps a little annoying at times).

It's the "West" that is the common enemy of us all. They fear anyone to improve themselves. I fear you will encounter much trouble in getting the Uranium.

Here's my suggestion, bypass the NSG and directly invest/mine in Khazakastan (Australia is very racist against Indians and won't let you mine their STOLEN land). :cheers: Cheers my Indian brothers!!! :cheers:
sounds fair enough to me.but my friend you c majority of our south asian population do not have intellect like yours:cry:.
 
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sounds fair enough to me.but my friend you c majority of our south asian population do not have intellect like yours:cry:.

Khazakastan is a friendly nation with abundant uranium. Khazaks share heritage with China and South Asia. India is big enough to make direct deals with Khazak without worrying about foreign pressures or threats! Stay cool my friend. :cool:
 
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Regardless of the cost factor, it is really heartening to know that LWR technology has the prospect of lighting up our villages. For me, it is far more important than a nuclear powered warship.

I doff my hat to the Indian scientists. No praise is enough for them.

I agree with toxic_pus, it's more important to use such techs in the civil field, than for carriers and cruiser!

Hi guys,

Though your intentions are noble, I am afraid we may not be able to use this particular type of reactor for rural electrification! This is primarily because the Arihant reactor is a Pressurised Water Reactor (PWR) type and uses Highly Enriched Uranium (HEU) as fuel. Apart from our weapons programme HEU is only being used to power Arihant’s reactor and will be used to power the reactors of other nuke subs that India builds. The Rare Materials Project at Ratnahalli, near Mysore, is currently producing enriched uranium for the subs and as far as my knowledge goes, this facility was built to produce HEU for the subs only and has very limited capacity.

This is because India doesn’t possess any significant reserves of quality Uranium. That is the main reason why we never considered PWRs for indigenous power generation in India. After, the nuke deal with US, foreign countries will be developing PWRs in India but the fuel for those reactors will come from the supplier country on agreements of perpetual supply.

The Indian civil nuclear programme consists of three stages. In stage one, we developed Pressurized Heavy Water Reactors (PHWRs) which uses natural Uranium as fuel. This technology has been mastered and is ready to be exported to other countries. The second stage comprises of building Fast Breeder Reactors (FBRs) which use plutonium-uranium oxide as fuel. The FBRs will be commissioned in 2011. The third stage consists of building Advanced Heavy Water Reactors (AHWRs) that will use Thorium as fuel. Incidentally, India possesses 25-30% of known reserves of Thorium and will be sufficient to provide energy security for a couple of thousand years.

So, in essence, using PWRs to generate power in a commercial scale doesn’t figure in the scheme of things for the DAE. Theoretically, since we possess the tech it may be a possibility. But, even then I am guessing that the fuel will be imported.

Just my 2 cents!
 
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Khazakastan is a friendly nation with abundant uranium. Khazaks share heritage with China and South Asia. India is big enough to make direct deals with Khazak without worrying about foreign pressures or threats! Stay cool my friend. :cool:

Yes, we have already signed a deal with Kazakhstan on Uranium supply in Jan this year. Remember the Kazakh President was the chief guest for this year's R Day. India-Kazakhstan uranium deal, nuclear energy and power generation uranium deal | DWS Business
But India is not about to bypass the NSG. That will imply deliberately sidelining and isolating the country. Then we will be in the same league as N Korea or Myanmar.
 
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India is also vying to sell Nuclear reactors (indigenous PHWRs) to Kazakhstan amongst other Asian, African and South American countries! The Hindu Business Line : India takes a step forward on N-reactor export front Kazakhstan could well be the first export customer of Indian PHWRs. They have also offered us to mine Uranium from their sites! So, the relationship with Kazakhstan is quite healthy and independent of foreign pressure as long as we are not violating any international treaties.
 
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OT

Screaming Skull;

This month BHUVAN & ‘Ocean Sat-2' will be launched. Any new news regarding those satellites.
 
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Sinking billions into nuclear weapons

When Ms Gursharan Kaur, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh's [ Images ] wife, broke a coconut on the hull of the INS Arihant amidst the chanting of Vedic verses, the Indian government took a step towards realising its post-1998 quest for a grand nuclear weapons power status.
When the submarine is commissioned in a few years, India will have a 'second-strike capability': Even if its land-or air-based nuclear weapons are destroyed/immobilised, India can still fire a nuclear-tipped missile at the adversary from the ship, which can stay underwater for months at a time and is therefore hard to detect.

The Arihant's launch has been called a great achievement of indigenous technology, which gives 'real teeth' to nuclear deterrence and enhances India's security without threatening others.

Dr Singh said: 'We do not have any aggressive designs, nor do we seek to threaten anyone...' But the rationale of nuclear deterrence is based on inducing terror through mass destruction weapons.

According to that doctrine, you prevent your enemy from nuking you by threatening 'unacceptable damage' through an attack which instantly kills hundreds of thousands or millions of civilians. Nuclear deterrence is a deeply flawed doctrine and was described for half-a-century by India as morally 'abhorrent' and strategically irrational.

However, what of the claim that the Arihant is an indigenous technological feat, which shows mastery of 'complex' skills of compacting the reactor which propels the submarine? In fact, the core of the Arihant technology lies in the reactor's design and construction. And that technology came from Russia . Scores of Russian engineers were sent to India to aid the Department of Atomic Energy (DAE) and the Defence Research & Development Organisation (DRDO).

It was the Russians who supplied the vital designs, precision equipment based on their VM-5 reactor, and the technology of miniaturising the reactor.

At the launch, Dr Singh, Defence Minister A K Antony and Navy chief Admiral Sureesh Mehta all appreciatively mentioned Russia's 'cooperation' -- a euphemism for virtually building the reactor, fitting it with high-quality components and providing precision welding inputs.

Present at the function were 143 Russian engineers, designers and consultants who were crucial participants in the project. So much for the 'indigenous' technology claim.:whistle:

In fact, the nuclear submarine project is a long story of failures on the part of the DAE and DRDO, two of the worst performing departments of the government, which have never completed a major project on schedule and without huge cost overruns such as 200 or 500 percent.:what:

The submarine project was sanctioned in 1970 by Indira Gandhi. Then DAE secretary Raja Ramanna's original design of 1975 proved totally unviable and had to be abandoned after about Rs 100 crores (or Rs 1 billion in today's terms) was spent on it.

The DAE learnt no lessons from this disaster. Indeed, when a critic with a reactor engineering doctorate, then navy Captain B K Subba Rao, voiced his doubts about its design, he was victimised. He was arrested on his way abroad for an academic conference and charged with espionage -- an accusation he successfully disproved after long periods in jail.

The project, codenamed Advanced Technology Vessel (ATV), was relaunched in 1975 under the DRDO, helped by the Bhabha Atomic Research Centre, Mumbai and the Indira Gandhi Centre for Atomic Research, Kalpakkam, and a large number of consultants in the public and private sectors.

This soaked up as much as Rs 2,500 crores (Rs 25 billion) in research and development (R&D) costs alone within two decades. But the project failed because the concerned agencies couldn't fabricate high-quality components and equipment.

In 1987-1988, India decided to try 'reverse engineering' by leasing from the USSR a Charlie-class nuclear submarine, renamed Chakra, for three years. This too yielded no worthwhile results in design or fabrication. The Soviet Union collapsed in 1991 and the lease wasn't renewed.

Finally, in 1998, construction began on the submarine's hull. A basically Russian-designed compact pressurised-water reactor was eventually fitted into the hull after nine years.

Meanwhile, the cost meter kept ticking. India has so far spent a humongous Rs 30,000 crores (Rs 300 billion) on the ATV, with virtually no side benefits. This equals the entire budget of the National Rural Employment Guarantee Act last year, which generated 45 million person days of employment. This makes nonsense of rational public-spending priorities.:tsk:

But the government is planning to build 10 nuclear submarines. Work on two has already started. India has also negotiated the lease of yet another Russian submarine, a hunter-killer type, distinct from the Arihant, which is a ballistic-missile launcher. The lease will cost another Rs 350 crores (Rs 3.5 billion) -- although the Navy brass says it's not keen on the hunter submarine.

However, will the Arihant give India greater security via nuclear deterrence? Deterrence assumes that nuclear adversaries don't attack each other because they are fully aware of each other's nuclear doctrines, want to avert 'unacceptable damage' from retaliation, and hence will behave rationally at all times. Equally, it assumes there will be no strategic misperceptions or miscalculations, and no accidents whatever.

These assumptions don't hold in reality. During the Cold War, there were countless misperceptions and accidents with counter-strikes being averted at the last minute. Weather rockets were confused for missiles. Vessels carrying nuclear weapons collided with one another. The world was lucky that nukes weren't used. There were 20,000 false alerts which could have led to instant retaliation -- despite sophisticated command and control systems on which $6 trillion were spent.

In the India-Pakistan case, no such sophisticated systems exist. There's a rich history of miscalculation from 1965, 1990, 1999 and 2001-2002 -- when war almost broke out. Indeed, Kargil did happen -- a mid-sized military conflict with more than 40,000 troops. This falsified the deterrence premise that nuclear powers don't fight conventional wars.

Clearly, nuclear deterrence is too flawed and unstable a basis on which to build security. Even old warhorses like Robert McNamara, who recently died, came to that conclusion. India will go down that very slippery slope and court disaster while continuing to deprive half its population of minimum needs.

Yet there's no limit on how much we'll be asked to spend on the military in the name of the Holy Cow of 'security'. And we're only at the first stage of acquisition of a large arsenal of nuclear weapons and their delivery vehicles, including missiles, aircraft and ships of various description, along with the requisite command and control systems, and elaborate means to protect so-called nuclear assets, which inevitably become a liability.

As this column has consistently argued since the Pokharan II blasts of 1998, India's nuclear weapons pursuit is likely to lead to a runaway increase in arms spending -- over and above rising expenditure on conventional weapons. Since 1998, military spending has risen threefold in absolute terms, the highest such increase since Independence.

As India builds up its nuclear arsenal, its adversaries will also try to match it or retain their superiority.

The real danger is an uncontrolled arms race in which your adversaries, not you, become the decision maker.

Throughout the Cold War, India rightly warned against the degenerative and unstable nature of nuclear deterrence and a runaway arms race. It is repeating that historic folly on a continental scale -- and possibly beyond, given India's (and China's) ambitious plans to build a blue-water navy, develop long-range inter-continental ballistic missiles and acquire 'Star Wars'-style ballistic missile defence systems.

Today, there's virtually no internal or external restraint on military spending -- witness the 34 per cent spurt in the defence budget in a single year, which will probably go through Parliament without a debate. This cannot be justified in the name of fighting terrorism.

You don't need amphibian ships, long-range fighter planes, aircraft carriers and nuclear-capable missiles to combat terrorism. Yet, so low is the accountability of the armed services that they can get away with wild budget increases, which they often don't fully spend.

Nothing illustrates this better than the latest CAG report on the acquisition of the Russian aircraft-carrier Admiral Gorshkov. This was first offered in 1994 as a 'free gift' provided India pays for its refitting and buys jetfighters to be put on it deck. A 'fixed price' contract was signed for $974 million. The ship was to be delivered refurbished by August 2008.

Soon, Russia demanded an additional $1.2 billion and pushed the delivery date to December 2012. But last year, Russia further raised the bill dramatically to $2.9 billion. India is now negotiating hard, but it's unlikely that the price tag will be under $2.5 billion. Besides, the ship won't even have a 'close-in' weapons system until 2017.:what::tsk:
According to the CAG report, the supreme, if ugly, irony is that the 'Navy is acquiring a second-hand refitted carrier that has half the lifespan and is 60 percent more expensive than a new one.'

A CAG official describes the Gorshkov deal as 'the biggest defence mess-up' ever.

The Gorshkov case isn't unique. Other major arms deals, including the French Scorpene submarine (price tag, Rs 18,701 crores/Rs 187.01 billion) and British advanced jet-trainer (cost, Rs 8,120 crores/Rs 81.20 billion), are also marked by allegations of undue favours, huge kickbacks, and dilution of warranty and performance norms. This only underscores the need for greater accountability on the defence services' part and for strict Parliamentary oversight of military contracts.
 
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Sinking billions into nuclear weapons

It would have been nice if you could have provided the link for the article Gabbar. But, anyway I googled and found that the article was written by Mr. Praful Bidwai. Must say I wasn’t surprised at all. Before proceeding let me give a brief intro about the author-

  • First of all Bidwai is an IIT-B drop-out and I think that s about the best qualification he has on his CV!
  • He is a member of the International Network of Engineers and Scientists against Proliferation (INESAP) and Co-founder of the Movement in India for Nuclear Disarmament (MIND).
  • His latest book is New Nukes: India, Pakistan and Global Nuclear Disarmament

In short he is a hard-core nuclear non-proliferation and disarmament shark.

Now, read his article in light of his credentials that I have mentioned above.

According to that doctrine, you prevent your enemy from nuking you by threatening 'unacceptable damage' through an attack which instantly kills hundreds of thousands or millions of civilians. Nuclear deterrence is a deeply flawed doctrine and was described for half-a-century by India as morally 'abhorrent' and strategically irrational.

Some key words- “prevent your enemy from nuking you” and “threatening”. This means without actually using nukes a country is preventing the other from nuking you. I don’t know how this logic can be called flawed? India still identifies 'deterrence based on Nuclear weapons' as 'morally abhorrent and strategically irrational' and hence the ‘no first use policy’.

However, what of the claim that the Arihant is an indigenous technological feat, which shows mastery of 'complex' skills of compacting the reactor which propels the submarine? In fact, the core of the Arihant technology lies in the reactor's design and construction. And that technology came from Russia . Scores of Russian engineers were sent to India to aid the Department of Atomic Energy (DAE) and the Defence Research & Development Organisation (DRDO).

The man lost the plot here! Russia is a signatory to the NPT and hence can not proliferate nuclear technology, civilian or military to any other country in the world, especially non-NPT signatories! Add to that, Dr. Kakodkar has himself claimed that the reactor was designed and developed in India by Indian scientists, a land based replica of which was shown to the journalist. Having, said that one can not discount the assistance provided by the Russians. They infact were there as consultants at every step to guide just to ensure that methods adopted by a first timer don’t result in any catastrophe and in the process helped in ensuring the safety of the people involved! But, to equate this to complete dependence on Russians is doing a great disservice to the scientists of the nation, which only the likes of Bidwai are capable of.

It was the Russians who supplied the vital designs, precision equipment based on their VM-5 reactor, and the technology of miniaturising the reactor.

Let him prove that it is a VM-5 and then we can discuss further. The govt. hasn’t let anyone close to the project for decades now. Even the retired Admirals can’t take a guess on the design of the sub and the reactor and here we have a non proliferation shark telling us that it is a VM-5. Rubbish!

At the launch, Dr Singh, Defence Minister A K Antony and Navy chief Admiral Sureesh Mehta all appreciatively mentioned Russia's 'cooperation' -- a euphemism for virtually building the reactor, fitting it with high-quality components and providing precision welding inputs.

Present at the function were 143 Russian engineers, designers and consultants who were crucial participants in the project. So much for the 'indigenous' technology claim.

He should be proud that at least the leaders of the country graciously acknowledge others’ support and help when they could have easily done without it. If only high quality components, precision welding inputs and 143 Russian engineers could build a nuclear sub, then we would have several such subs floating in the IOR now. By the way what are these high quality components? If he is talking about sub grade steel and anacholic tiles, then they might have been imported with Indian money! What else? The hull was developed by L&T, the sensors by NPO (DRDO) and the reactor by BARC. So, what are these high quality components this IIT drop-out is talking about? As far as the 143 Russian engineers go, it is an open secret, reported several times since the launch.

In fact, the nuclear submarine project is a long story of failures on the part of the DAE and DRDO, two of the worst performing departments of the government, which have never completed a major project on schedule and without huge cost overruns such as 200 or 500 percent.

Long story of failures? Yeah right! He expects a country developing its first sub that too a nuke powered one to do things smoothly and according to plan? What a hypocrite!
And DAE, the worst performing dept. of the govt.? Joke of the century! DAE is by far the best performing govt. organization, working under such stringent sanctions even before the 74 test that they had to develop every damn tech in house. Look at the results. We are now in a position to export nuclear reactors with 100% indigenous parts to other countries. We are now in a position to generate power from FBRs, a technology long abandoned by the developed nations of the world. For a third world country, living under sanctions and nuclear isolation for the better part of our existence, we have done magnificently well and all credits go to DAE. Unfortunately, such achievements are lost upon suckers like Bidwai!

The submarine project was sanctioned in 1970 by Indira Gandhi. Then DAE secretary Raja Ramanna's original design of 1975 proved totally unviable and had to be abandoned after about Rs 100 crores (or Rs 1 billion in today's terms) was spent on it.

The DAE learnt no lessons from this disaster. Indeed, when a critic with a reactor engineering doctorate, then navy Captain B K Subba Rao, voiced his doubts about its design, he was victimised. He was arrested on his way abroad for an academic conference and charged with espionage -- an accusation he successfully disproved after long periods in jail.

The project, codenamed Advanced Technology Vessel (ATV), was relaunched in 1975 under the DRDO, helped by the Bhabha Atomic Research Centre, Mumbai and the Indira Gandhi Centre for Atomic Research, Kalpakkam, and a large number of consultants in the public and private sectors.

This soaked up as much as Rs 2,500 crores (Rs 25 billion) in research and development (R&D) costs alone within two decades. But the project failed because the concerned agencies couldn't fabricate high-quality components and equipment.

In 1987-1988, India decided to try 'reverse engineering' by leasing from the USSR a Charlie-class nuclear submarine, renamed Chakra, for three years. This too yielded no worthwhile results in design or fabrication. The Soviet Union collapsed in 1991 and the lease wasn't renewed.

Finally, in 1998, construction began on the submarine's hull. A basically Russian-designed compact pressurised-water reactor was eventually fitted into the hull after nine years.

What a load of BS! Everything has been misconstrued to suite his agenda. I suggest members refer to Admiral Raja Menon’s recent article to get the correct facts.

Meanwhile, the cost meter kept ticking. India has so far spent a humongous Rs 30,000 crores (Rs 300 billion) on the ATV, with virtually no side benefits. This equals the entire budget of the National Rural Employment Guarantee Act last year, which generated 45 million person days of employment. This makes nonsense of rational public-spending priorities.

From where the hell did he get this figure? GoI spent a total of $2.9 Billion to develop the ATV and this includes the cost of producing 3-5 ATV class subs!

Well I can continue to comment on this load of crap from Bidwai, but seriously simply reading his biased account is making me sick let alone commenting on it.
 
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Sinking billions into nuclear weapons
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Honestly Gabbar, I dont know what made you quote this Bidwai character. I mean he is a serious nut case who has absolutely no credibility at all. It is only in India that this type of nut case can live and prosper in the name of a democratic dissenting voice. Had it been Pakistan, he would have been banished to a hut in SWAT which had AI QUAIDA written on the roof and the US Predators informed. In China, he would have found himself in the Gobi desert carrying a water bottle with a hole in it.
 
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India is definitely making massive strides in nuclear technology and this will not only help it develop potent weapon systems such nuclear submarines and aircraft carriers but also enable to produce massive amounts of electricity to fuel economic growth.

India's progress in nuclear power has even made China take notice. Xinhua.com has posted a front-page headline today on India's nuclear industry -

India to build 4 more nuclear reactors

NEW DELHI, Aug. 3 (Xinhua) -- India will soon build four more 700-MW capacity nuclear reactors, the country's Atomic Energy Commission (AEC) announced Monday.

"We are looking forward to launching new 700 megawatt power reactors. The government has already given in principal approval for four 700-megawatt units. So we want to quickly get the approval and start the construction," AEC Chairman Anil Kakodkar said in Chennai, southern India.

The decision to build four more nuclear reactors to meet the growing demand of nuclear power in the country came in the wake of the United States, Russia and European Union nations have expressed their willingness to sell nuclear technologies, materials and services to India.

During the U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton's visit to India last month, the two countries have reported agreed upon two sites to build nuclear reactors with U.S. nuclear technology.
 
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Nuclear aircraft carrier is must. India have ability to make it. 10years or 15years it dont matter. What matter is we should have it. To all my friends i want to ask what was india before britishers came to rule on india? India was 'GOLDEN BIRD'. What happened after 200years of british rule??? India became poor of the poorest. Why india became poor when it was alot rich country??? The answer is 'POOR DEFENCE'. Now i see alot people saying india should feed poor people and has to stop spending in military weapons. i dont think india going to do that mistake again by keeping our defence weak. Why a super power america spends 750 billion dollars per year on military?? Why? Answer is no country safe without proper defence. India should have aircraft carriers and alot more advance weapons or result would be same like last time when britishers came in india. India making right moves. Thank you.
 
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India is definitely making massive strides in nuclear technology and this will not only help it develop potent weapon systems such nuclear submarines and aircraft carriers but also enable to produce massive amounts of electricity to fuel economic growth.

India's progress in nuclear power has even made China take notice. Xinhua.com has posted a front-page headline today on India's nuclear industry -

India to build 4 more nuclear reactors

NEW DELHI, Aug. 3 (Xinhua) -- India will soon build four more 700-MW capacity nuclear reactors, the country's Atomic Energy Commission (AEC) announced Monday.

"We are looking forward to launching new 700 megawatt power reactors. The government has already given in principal approval for four 700-megawatt units. So we want to quickly get the approval and start the construction," AEC Chairman Anil Kakodkar said in Chennai, southern India.

The decision to build four more nuclear reactors to meet the growing demand of nuclear power in the country came in the wake of the United States, Russia and European Union nations have expressed their willingness to sell nuclear technologies, materials and services to India.

During the U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton's visit to India last month, the two countries have reported agreed upon two sites to build nuclear reactors with U.S. nuclear technology.

Of course, when our Indian brothers do good we are also proud. This is a delicate time, if we do it right (i.e. work together) a Asian Century will shed light on the world. :cheers: If we fight amongst ourselves, it will weaken all of us for the Lion's kill. :agree:
 
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