India forgetting 1999 Kargil victory against Pakistan: Gen. V.P Malik

[Rocky25]

India's Defence Minister was asked point-blank if India lost any territory at Kargil, and he was caught lying.

Despite all the media propaganda that India won, Pakistan actually gained territory. Kargil has exchanged hands three times since our independance, and until Kashmir is resolved and India doesn't stop mass-graves and terrorism, it can expect a hundred more Kargils.

Indian army are ready for zillion more Kargils! Welcome.

All wars are decided by objectives achieved! Was occupying the so called one peak is Pakistan's whole objective?

 

[karan.1970]

Indian army are ready for zillion more Kargils! Welcome.

All wars are decided by objectives achieved! Was occupying the so called one peak is Pakistan's whole objective?

No.. Its a consolation prize for Pakistani army.. Just like a captured GNAT is for Pakistan's failed war of 1965 and a better shot down aircrafts tally is for the defeat in 1971.. Every one should be allowed their straw in the storm ...

 

[Rocky25]

The general's views reflect the underlying fallacy in the peace process.
The strategic machines of both nations, in all their goodie goodie or distracting statements(WoT, China focus..etc).. are in the end focused only on each others destruction.. and only the death of millions if not a billion will satisfy their thirst for blood.

It was not this general who ordered his soldiers to occupy the Pakistani Peaks!

The peace process is stupid, If Pakistan wants peace then it would had abolished the terror training camps long long ago and hanged all the terrorists by now. Pakistan will not clean the camps, If Indian Army attacks the camps then it will be considered as a violation sovereignty.

Untill India has credible ABM, India has to face the consequence of terrorism!

 

[INDIAISM]

Since Tiger Hill is the highest peak in the sector, the Pakistani forces who held the peak could easily see the military headquarters of the 56 Brigade, the main Indian force in charge of the area. The Pakistanis could also watch the Srinagar-Leh Highway, the main supply route of the Kargil Sector, and relay information of troop and supply movements to their superiors.
Thats wat Pakistan achieved from Kargil. Wat Indians gained from it?

See the difference between the stature of India and Pakistan Pre Kargil and Post Kargil.....You will realise what we gained and what you lost.....Kargil wad Eye openner for us and it helped us to come togather and think about our country only....

 

[Rocky25]

See the difference between the stature of India and Pakistan Pre Kargil and Post Kargil.....You will realise what we gained and what you lost.....dude you are still struck in Tiger hill.....

He copy-pasted something from wiki, But he should read it again FULLY.

Tiger Hill, Kargil - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[karan.1970]

See the difference between the stature of India and Pakistan Pre Kargil and Post Kargil.....You will realise what we gained and what you lost.....Kargil wad Eye openner for us and it helped us to come togather and think about our country only....

Inability to think strategically has always been the bane of Pakistani generals (real as well as armchair ones)

 

[buddyboyyash]

Inability to think strategically has always been the bane of Pakistani generals (real as well as armchair ones)

remove the boldened word and read again....

 

[notsuperstitious]

A war is won in terms of which side achieved the objectives.

Since Pakistan's objectives are unknown, but probably was the Army's desire to halt the peace process started by Vajpayee's lahore visit. Pak army achieved the objective very well, hence the usual army fanboys tend to call it a victory.

So it was a victory for pak fauj in in its internal power struggle with the incompetent pak awaam. Internationally, it was a small sacrifice. Pak fauj is used to bigger sacrifices in its war on pak civilian governments, for example that war on Awaami League.

 

[trinity]

Firstly respect to the army for their service and sacrifice to the country but I disagree. A war should never be celebrated, humans die on both sides. Its nothing to celebrate about.

War should be celebrated only when you haven;t started the conflict. It is under such cirucmstances that wining is actually a way to pay homage for those who sacraficed and to never forget. Gen. Malik is correct in his analysis. A strategic culutre is what India lacks and quite frankly it is quite evident. This non violent approach and peaceful rise isa good gesture but for the wrong times.

 

[Qasibr]

No.. Its a consolation prize for Pakistani army.. Just like a captured GNAT is for Pakistan's failed war of 1965 and a better shot down aircrafts tally is for the defeat in 1971.. Every one should be allowed their straw in the storm ...

What a wonderful concept: "All Wars are Decided by Objectives Achieved". Rocky should put that on a poster.

In the 1948 war India set out to capture Kashmir because the Hindu ruler of the Muslim-majority state supposidly signed an "Instrument of Accession". Ended up they couldn't even capture 50% of the territory. Oh, and I say "supposidly signed" because India hasn't shown the document in 60 years, and India decided to forcefully occupy the State of Hyderabad when the Muslim ruler of the Hindu-majority state signed the "Instrument of Accession" with Pakistan - shows their incredible moral flexibility.

In 1965 India was to use the element of surprise to capture Lahore, among other territory. They attacked before dawn and a General famously boasted about how they'd capture undefended Lahore and be sipping tea in Gymkhana by noon. Turned out they miserably failed. The Indian AF was five times PAF's size. And PAF shot down so many IAF aircraft that IAF claimed in retaliation that they had shot down 100+ PAF aircraft(our total strength was less than 150 combat aircraft), meaning nearly all of our F-86 Sabre fleet. And Pakistan held a huge aircraft display on March 23rd next year, exposing India's claims for the lies that they were, forcing India to finally shut-up.

So, by those standards - India lost two of the three wars Pakistan and India have fought. Heck - even the '71 war was lost, our Bengali brothers kicked pressured India to withdraw it's army in 1974, and Bangladesh did not become an obedient client-state like Nepal or Bhutan(India doesn't even let them buy weaponry from other states, all they can get is Indian defective weaponry that famously overheats when used).

And Kargil - Tiger Hill overlooks the main supply route India has, into Siachen. Pakistan still holds it. It was so important strategically, that India tried until 2003 to re-capture it, and failed. Limited warfare went out until 2003, when truce was declared and the fighting stopped.

So boo-hoo. India really needs to grow up. A nation that has border disputes and problems with EACH AND EVERY neighbor, clearly has some deep problems.

 

[Kyusuibu Honbu]

In the 1948 war India set out to capture Kashmir because the Hindu ruler of the Muslim-majority state supposidly signed an "Instrument of Accession". Ended up they couldn't even capture 50% of the territory. Oh, and I say "supposidly signed" because India hasn't shown the document in 60 years, and India decided to forcefully occupy the State of Hyderabad when the Muslim ruler of the Hindu-majority state signed the "Instrument of Accession" with Pakistan - shows their incredible moral flexibility.

One can say the same about Pakistanis, however in Hyderabads case a plebiscite was held, in Kashmir case your nation was reluctant to accept the necessary steps prior to conducting a plebiscite,

In 1965 India was to use the element of surprise to capture Lahore, among other territory. They attacked before dawn and a General famously boasted about how they'd capture undefended Lahore and be sipping tea in Gymkhana by noon. Turned out they miserably failed. The Indian AF was five times PAF's size. And PAF shot down so many IAF aircraft that IAF claimed in retaliation that they had shot down 100+ PAF aircraft(our total strength was less than 150 combat aircraft), meaning nearly all of our F-86 Sabre fleet.

And who started 1965 war, was it India who pumped infiltrators in Lahore ?

And Pakistan held a huge aircraft display on March 23rd next year, exposing India's claims for the lies that they were, forcing India to finally shut-up.

Can you quantify this huge word here?

So, by those standards - India lost two of the three wars Pakistan and India have fought. Heck - even the '71 war was lost, our Bengali brothers kicked pressured India to withdraw it's army in 1974, and Bangladesh did not become an obedient client-state like Nepal or Bhutan(India doesn't even let them buy weaponry from other states, all they can get is Indian defective weaponry that famously overheats when used).

Finally! was waiting for the day when a someone would say 1971 was not a victory for India, when did any Indian Govt offcial announce that making BD a client state was part of the 1971 objective.

Your nation launched a preemptive strike on India , and India responded with her UN based right of self-defense. The rest is history.

Article 51

Nothing in the present Charter shall impair the inherent right of individual or collective self-defence if an armed attack occurs against a Member of the United Nations, until the Security Council has taken measures necessary to maintain international peace and security. Measures taken by Members in the exercise of this right of self-defence shall be immediately reported to the Security Council and shall not in any way affect the authority and responsibility of the Security Council under the present Charter to take at any time such action as it deems necessary in order to maintain or restore international peace and security.

Charter of the United Nations: Chapter VII: Action with Respect to Threats to the Peace, Breaches of the Peace and Acts of Agression

And Kargil - Tiger Hill overlooks the main supply route India has, into Siachen. Pakistan still holds it. It was so important strategically, that India tried until 2003 to re-capture it, and failed. Limited warfare went out until 2003, when truce was declared and the fighting stopped.

Tiger Hill is with Pakistan

So boo-hoo. India really needs to grow up.

India is growing.

A nation that has border disputes and problems with EACH AND EVERY neighbor, clearly has some deep problems.

Wonder which nation that might be.

 

[illusion8]

What a wonderful concept: "All Wars are Decided by Objectives Achieved". Rocky should put that on a poster.

In the 1948 war India set out to capture Kashmir because the Hindu ruler of the Muslim-majority state supposidly signed an "Instrument of Accession". Ended up they couldn't even capture 50% of the territory. Oh, and I say "supposidly signed" because India hasn't shown the document in 60 years, and India decided to forcefully occupy the State of Hyderabad when the Muslim ruler of the Hindu-majority state signed the "Instrument of Accession" with Pakistan - shows their incredible moral flexibility.

In 1965 India was to use the element of surprise to capture Lahore, among other territory. They attacked before dawn and a General famously boasted about how they'd capture undefended Lahore and be sipping tea in Gymkhana by noon. Turned out they miserably failed. The Indian AF was five times PAF's size. And PAF shot down so many IAF aircraft that IAF claimed in retaliation that they had shot down 100+ PAF aircraft(our total strength was less than 150 combat aircraft), meaning nearly all of our F-86 Sabre fleet. And Pakistan held a huge aircraft display on March 23rd next year, exposing India's claims for the lies that they were, forcing India to finally shut-up.

So, by those standards - India lost two of the three wars Pakistan and India have fought. Heck - even the '71 war was lost, our Bengali brothers kicked pressured India to withdraw it's army in 1974, and Bangladesh did not become an obedient client-state like Nepal or Bhutan(India doesn't even let them buy weaponry from other states, all they can get is Indian defective weaponry that famously overheats when used).

And Kargil - Tiger Hill overlooks the main supply route India has, into Siachen. Pakistan still holds it. It was so important strategically, that India tried until 2003 to re-capture it, and failed. Limited warfare went out until 2003, when truce was declared and the fighting stopped.

So boo-hoo. India really needs to grow up. A nation that has border disputes and problems with EACH AND EVERY neighbor, clearly has some deep problems.

In 48 Pakistan sent its forces to capture Kashmir but Indian forces stopped them after the accession.
In 65 one more attempt by Pakistan to take over Kashmir with the use of it's forces, and ended up defending its own territory.
In 71 India and Rehman coined the word Bangladesh - a sovereign country carved out of Pakistan and India achieved it to the bitter lamentation of all Pakistan.
In 99 PA set out to take over Kargil and occupied Tiger hill and Indian forces evicted them from Tiger hill and all other peaks and Pakistan was forced to surrender and turn back. Kargil still stands as Indian territory and India has a big @ss Air force base in Kargil.

 

[Damadji]

Indian politicians and bureaucrats have still not learned their lesson and they will get us into another kargil.

 

[Qasibr]

One can say the same about Pakistanis, however in Hyderabads case a plebiscite was held, in Kashmir case your nation was reluctant to accept the necessary steps prior to conducting a plebiscite

India refuses to conduct the plebiscite. It even refuses to show this "Instrument of Accession", and has not shown it in the past 60 years.

And who started 1965 war, was it India who pumped infiltrators in Lahore ?

Indians always blur the difference between a Line-of-Control and an International border. A Line-of-Control simply defines the different areas different sizes have under their control, when warfare is stopped and truce is declared in a disputed area. When India aided and abetted Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka(something with even a former Sri Lankan PM stated, and then was pressured/threatened by India to apologize), or the insurgency in Baluchistan in the 70's or now again in the 2000's, this was "infilitration". However, when India crossed the International Border in 1965, that was war.

Finally! was waiting for the day when a someone would say 1971 was not a victory for India, when did any Indian Govt offcial announce that making BD a client state was part of the 1971 objective.

It was unthinkable for India to even think about withdrawing it's army in 1971 after the war. It took many years, and when India's Army finally withdrew, it was celebrated as a huge victory.

Tiger Hill is with Pakistan

Hahaha! So funny. Except it's not. Here's an excerpt from the Indian media, published in 2009 at the tenth anniversary of Kargil:

Standing tall and dominating the famous Tiger Hill on the Line of Control (LoC) is a grim reminder of the Kargil war. Point 5353, the highest peak in the region which has a clear view of the National Highway 1 D, remains occupied by Pakistan even a decade after the battle.

While the point is clearly on the Indian side of the LoC, it remains in Pakistani control which has fortified it with reinforced bunkers and has even built a special road nearby to carry up supplies for soldiers.

The Indian Army, which made several unsuccessful attempts to occupy the post after the Kargil war, has since given up the post as “untenable” given the geography of the region that makes it fairly easy for Pakistani troops to climb.

What makes Point 5353 so valuable for the two armies is that it has a clear view of the national highway that connects the Kashmir valley with Kargil. The main reason the Army retaliated hard to the Pakistani intrusion in 1999 was that disruption of traffic on the road would cut off supplies to Ladakh and the Siachen glacier.

While officers say that Point 5353 is surrounded by three Indian posts, including Point 5240 and any action from there would be neutralised, the fact remains that artillery observers from the post can easily direct fire on a 25 km stretch of the national highway.

Besides, the most dominating feature in the region has a clear view of the Tiger Hill and surrounding areas. Sources say Pakistan has constructed concrete bunkers at the location and have a special supply base on their side of the LoC that has substantial reinforcements.

Several attempts to dislodge Pakistani troops from the posts with the help of artillery fire remained unsuccessful till action became impossible after the 2003 ceasefire. The Army has since given up the option of retaking the post in the larger interest of peace in the area.

Indian Express - Near Tiger Hill, Point 5353 Still Pak-Occupied

So yes - this strategically vital mountain peak is still under Pakistani control.

 

[EzioAltaïr]

.... Am I reading it wrong, or are there Pakistanis here who avtually believe gaining one peak and 3 ridges in exchange for anywhere between 700-4000 men is a "victory"? And you can look it up, all 4 points lie on the LOC, so India never owned them at all, Pakistan didn't either but it took them ti feel good.