India for stronger military ties with ISRAEL

[pagans]

The title should be "India for strongest military ties with Israel".

The illegal state of israel and blood sucker brahmins of India are natural friends of each others. The cost have to be paid by us and all other peace lovers.

Israel is not illegal . It is as valid as India and America.

 

[Developereo]

Our stance is very simple..We see Israeli- Palestine problem as Israel-palestine [...] ..Now how do they solve it??thats for them to decide...we wont interfere

Given the ridiculous disparity between their relative strenght, that's a convenient cop out.

That's like saying we won't interfere in the Holocaust. It is a German matter for the Nazis and the Jews to solve themselves.

Israel is not illegal . It is as valid as India and America.

So was Nazi Germany.

Does that mean everybody should have let them do what they wanted with a weak minority under their control?

 

[deckingraj]

Given the ridiculous disparity between their relative strenght, that's a convenient cop out.

So what is your suggestion...Arm Palestine or disarm Israel or what??? The matter is under UN observation and that's the way it has to be solved...Now you and I can argue about how much teeth UN have but it is not something that India or Pakistan can solve...All we can do is take sides...India has chosen to be friends with both where as Pakistan has chosen to be just with palestine...

That's like saying we won't interfere in the Holocaust. It is a German matter for the Nazis and the Jews to solve themselves.

No not at all..Are you saying that Israel is committing Holocaust in Palestine??? Holocaust was the most horrific period of modern civilization...Don't belittle it because of your obvious hatred for Israel...

So was Nazi Germany.

Does that mean everybody should have let them do what they wanted with a weak minority under their control?

Again that's not a valid argument..You are saying Israel is illegal and then comparing it with Nazi Germany...To me both these arguments are not correct...However lets save this discussion for a relevant thread...Right here the point of the matter is India see good relations with palestine as well as Israel in her national interests...So far we have done a good job as far as diplomacy is concerned i.e. Both Palenstine and Israel people consider us their friends...

Now with in this context(India-Israel relations) what is your point??

P.S: I am trying hard for people not go off topic here and i would appreciate a little help in that regard...

.

 

[Developereo]

Are you saying that Israel is committing Holocaust in Palestine??? Holocaust was the most horrific period of modern civilization...Don't belittle it because of your obvious hatred for Israel...

This is the standard Israeli line. It is part of the Zionist apologist bag of tricks. First trick is to use the race card and throw the word anti-Semite at anyone who critisizes Israel. If that doesn't work, then the Holocaust is brought in, both as a sympathy card, and as a comparative yardstick to say, "hey, at least it's not the Holocaust".

Both Palenstine and Israel people consider us their friends...

Now with in this context(India-Israel relations) what is your point??

First point is a moral point. Most countries boycotted the South African apartheid regime out of principle. Significantly, Israel was one of the few holdouts and even supplied weapons to the apartheid regime.

Second point is to note that your cooperation, especially military cooperation, will likely result in weapons which will be used to kill Palestinians, including children. You will disagree, but I see it as comparable to helping the Nazis develop gas chambers.

The question is a moral one for India's voting public. Do they consider the Israeli situation as oppression of the Palestinian people and, if so, do they want their government to be an accomplice?

Every country has to make choices and, in the arena of military technology, India is probably the country with the most choices in terms of partners and suppliers. It is not like India has to deal with Israel. It choses to. And it can chose not to, if it feels the moral repugnance.

 

[asq]

Developereo.

excellent point bro.

 

[deckingraj]

@Developereo

man i have got a chance to discuss with you couple of times...My impression about you is that you are comparatively a reasonable person...So with that impression lets talk about it...

@Request

My only request is to keep the discussion about Israel and Palestine conflict short.. otherwise we will end up going in circles... However if you think otherwise i am all for discussions...

This is the standard Israeli line. It is part of the Zionist apologist bag of tricks. First trick is to use the race card and throw the word anti-Semite at anyone who critisizes Israel. If that doesn't work, then the Holocaust is brought in, both as a sympathy card, and as a comparative yardstick to say, "hey, at least it's not the Holocaust".

Dude i am not sure if this is Israel line or not...I am an Indian and shared my view point with you...I don't think that whatever is happening in Palestine is anywhere close to holocaust...Please share with me your thoughts about why you think otherwise...As far as i know i don't think if there are camps where Palestines are treated like dogs and forced to work for Israel and later on killed mercilessly without any reasons....but looking forward to see why you think it is right to equate the two...

First point is a moral point. Most countries boycotted the South African apartheid regime out of principle. Significantly, Israel was one of the few holdouts and even supplied weapons to the apartheid regime.

Well lets not talk about Moral point here....The way you have suggested is that all countries that deal with Israel including some islamic countries are immoral...As far as i know Pak have good relations(atleast on Paper) with US who supports Israel like anything...With that where do you see Pakistan going???...Also just because your country don't have good relations with Israel you cannot bring in morality here....We(Pak, India) all have done lot of things in the past which was no where close to morality.....I am leaving it there with the assumption you will understand my point...Let me know if you wish to continue...

Second point is to note that your cooperation, especially military cooperation, will likely result in weapons which will be used to kill Palestinians, including children. You will disagree, but I see it as comparable to helping the Nazis develop gas chambers.

You are right i disagree.... Because the way Pakistan's and india's help to Palestine is not going for support of Hamas and thereby killings of Isaeli's including children this money is also not going for that purpose...We recognized Israel only in 1991...Defence deals of large scale started only after Kargil war...I guess this Israel-Palestine conflict is 6 decades old...

The question is a moral one for India's voting public. Do they consider the Israeli situation as oppression of the Palestinian people and, if so, do they want their government to be an accomplice?

Are you kidding me??? I hope you have read one of many such news...May be this answer a little bit of your morality part...

India votes in favor of Goldstone report | balita-dot-ph

Even though Israel from sheer benefits perspective is far more better friend than Palestine yet New Delhi choose to oppose them in an international arena...On what basis you are calling GOI an accomplice...We always support peaceful existence of both Israel and Palestine...Now if you say the only way to show morality is wipe out Israel from map than i am sorry my friend...Also no-one including ASQ has answered one question of mine...

Both Israel and Palestine people think New Delhi as their friend but my pakistani friends see it different way...Are you saying people of Israel and Palestine are stupid??? After all relationship with Israel is an open one...its not something happening through back channels...

Every country has to make choices and, in the arena of military technology, India is probably the country with the most choices in terms of partners and suppliers. It is not like India has to deal with Israel. It choses to. And it can chose not to, if it feels the moral repugnance.

What are you talking about??? It simply suggest you have no idea about Israel military innovations and her capabilities...Even you all weather friend China seek Israel co-operations(US acting as a spoiler)..... I would rate Israel even important than US...Dealing with US can back fire and your air-force have learned it the hard way...

Anyways just read this article...To be a true friend of Palestine doesn't mean you have to be an enemy of Israel...Here is an expert

Populist Pakistani media instead spotlit Pakistan's interest in having a "constructive role" in the Palestine issue, arguing that only countries having "good relations" with both Israel and the Palestinians can take part in resolving the dispute.

PAKISTAN - ISRAEL RELATIONS: THE 'FIRST FORMAL CONTACT'

 

[asq]

decki

U bring in the discssion about Pakistan's relations with U.S, and u do not mention that Pakistan on every occasion has told U.S. in no uncertain terms about Israeli behavior in all the occupied territory including Gaza. so report the whole story not the part that suits you.

Now i have noted some references below for ur reaction, let us see what kild of spin u have this time.





ei: Wilful Killing of 72-Year-Old Civilian by Israeli Forces in Hebron

ReliefWeb » Document » Israeli military police begin probe into killing and wounding of Palestinians carrying white flags during Operation Cast Lead in Gaza

Palestinian Centre for Human Rights

A 12 Year old Boy Shot Dead in front of YOUR Eyes

 

[deckingraj]

@ASQ

I am sure we both have better work to do than to keep on trying to make other look like fool...Don't we??

Anyways i would request you to atleast read the post and then reply...I cannot explain to you every time in details of what i am saying....

decki

U bring in the discssion about Pakistan's relations with U.S, and u do not mention that Pakistan on every occasion has told U.S. in no uncertain terms about Israeli behavior in all the occupied territory including Gaza. so report the whole story not the part that suits you.

If you would have paid some attention to understand what i am trying to say you would not have written all of above... Do you see anywhere me supporting the war crimes in palestine conflict???? How can you ignore the link that i have given..

India votes in favor of Goldstone report | balita-dot-ph

Above link specifically says that GOI voted against Israel in an international forum to condemn the war crimes commited in GAZA...I strongly support GOI's view point..

Now let me explain why did i mention Pakistan name...This is what @Developereo said

First point is a moral point. Most countries boycotted the South African apartheid regime out of principle. Significantly, Israel was one of the few holdouts and even supplied weapons to the apartheid regime.

In response i said this

The way you have suggested is that all countries that deal with Israel including some islamic countries are immoral...As far as i know Pak have good relations(atleast on Paper) with US who supports Israel like anything...With that where do you see Pakistan going???...

What does both quotes suggest you??? The way it was immoral to support Israel because she supported South Africa regime practicing Apartheid the same way Pakistan supporting US who is supporting Israel is also immoral...Do you understand the analogy that i have put forward???

Now i have noted some references below for ur reaction, let us see what kild of spin u have this time.

Do you see where we are going??? Now we are discussing Israel Palestine issue...Anyways i have already mentioned my stand on the war crimes...However not to belittle pain of Palestine people i can also share lot of links where Hamas has committed the same grave crimes...So my suggestion is lets keep this debate for future...

I guess i have made my point clear...

Now one question that no one is answering to me...

Both Israel and Palestine people think New Delhi as their friend but my pakistani friends see it different way...Are you saying people of Israel and Palestine are stupid???

I know you will not answer so let me help...Supporting palestine cause does not mean that you have to be Anti-Israel....that's the reason even despite your immense hatred towards us people of Palestine consider Indians as their friend...Let me share the same link that i shared in my previous post...read it...It gives a different perspective of supporting Palestine cause...

PAKISTAN - ISRAEL RELATIONS: THE 'FIRST FORMAL CONTACT'

 

[Developereo]

man i have got a chance to discuss with you couple of times...My impression about you is that you are comparatively a reasonable person...

Thanks. You too.

I am an Indian and shared my view point with you...I don't think that whatever is happening in Palestine is anywhere close to holocaust...Please share with me your thoughts about why you think otherwise...

It's not just me, it's Israeli lawmakers themselves, including one guy who said the image of an old Palestinian woman in front of her bulldozed house reminded him of his own grandmother during the Nazi terror.

There were images of Israelis tattooing serial numbers on Palestinain prisoners, reminiscent of what the Nazis did to the Jews.

The comparison is based more on justification and ideology. The Zionists make a clear distinction between themselves as a people, and the Palestinians. They are convinced they are entitled to special rights simply because they are Jewish, thereby implying that the Palestinians are inferior in an absolute sense. This ideological justification for their actions is exactly what the Nazis preached.

I agree it is not as bad as the Holocaust, but that is exactly the excuse the Israelis use to justify their actions. I can't find the quote but even one ex-Prime Minster complained of some Israelis' tendency to be so dismissive of any criticism.

The way you have suggested is that all countries that deal with Israel including some islamic countries are immoral...

Almost all (all?) the Muslim countries who are friendly to Israel are dictatorships where the government does not represent the will of the people. The only exception would be Turkey and I don't know how much of their friendship is based on appeasing the EU and the US.

As far as i know Pak have good relations(atleast on Paper) with US who supports Israel like anything...With that where do you see Pakistan going???

Every country has to be more or less friendly to the US, given the reality. Doesn't mean we have to like everything the US does.

...Also just because your country don't have good relations with Israel you cannot bring in morality here

I do believe one of the main reasons Pakistan has resisted recognizing Israel is because of morality. As you indicated, there is a lot of benefit to be derived from Israel, but we have stood firm as a matter of principle.

Because the way Pakistan's and india's help to Palestine is not going for support of Hamas and thereby killings of Isaeli's including children this money is also not going for that purpose...

There is a world of difference between giving money to charity and actively developing weapons of war for one side. I could consider India's position if it was engaged in civilian trade and educational/scientific cooperation, but India's engagement with Israel is specifically focussed on military matters.

Even though Israel from sheer benefits perspective is far more better friend than Palestine yet New Delhi choose to oppose them in an international arena...

Pfft. Inconsequential, meaningless diplomatic slap on the wrist.

India threw a bone to the Palestinians and made a calculated public relations ploy for their Arab customers. India has trade with the rest of the Middle East, too, and needs to keep the Arab masses happy.

Both Israel and Palestine people think New Delhi as their friend but my pakistani friends see it different way...Are you saying people of Israel and Palestine are stupid??? After all relationship with Israel is an open one...its not something happening through back channels...

The Israelis are smart. They know exactly the game that India is playing; how it needs to keep the Arabs placated while engaging with Israel.

The Palestinians are also smart but far more desperate. They have few friends, least of all in the Arab governments, most of whom are two-faced, self-serving dictatorships. Saudi Arabia would gladly give flyover rights to Israel to go bomb Iran. Egypt already helped Israeli dolphins cross the Suez canal as a show of force against Iran.

What are you talking about??? It simply suggest you have no idea about Israel military innovations and her capabilities...Even you all weather friend China seek Israel co-operations(US acting as a spoiler)..... I would rate Israel even important than US...Dealing with US can back fire and your air-force have learned it the hard way...

I agree that the Israelis have good technology and are smart innovators. But military innovation needs more than just brains. It needs money, lots of it. That's why the Russians have been desperately looking for partners and are happy to take India on board many of their projects.

Anyways just read this article...

Globalsecurity is a hardcore pro-Israel outfit. They are notoriously anti-Pakistan, but I did read the article nonetheless. They are saying Pakistan approached Israel mostly as a calculated ploy to stem the growth of the India/Israel military alliance. That's is probably true and it clearly didn't work, not that any sane person could possibly have expected it to.

 

[asq]

And the article that u posted is dated Sept. 05. And we are now at Nov. 09, besides it was a try by a dictator to push his agenda to please his benefactors,

Now let me post here an article which states true feeling of Pakistani people and politicians. Read on and enjoy. remember the operastive word is "TRUE".

where did I or any Pakistani for that matter have ever said that we are anti Israel, No dude we do not condone its polices of Hegemony and of continued collective punishment to Palestinians. Read the report below.

Effects of Israeli blockade of Gaza SF Gray Panthers

If Israel was smart it would listen to the world's opinion and stop its acts of belligerence and of forced starvation of the people in Gaza, if it was smart it would remember what its people went through during WW11, but alas they continue the policies of apartheid and those who support it are guilty by associations.

Read the report by red cross about the forced starvation of Gaza and the silly comments at the bottom by an Israeli politician.

Chronic malnutrition in Gaza blamed on Israel - Middle East, World - The Independent

There is no need for me to answer remaining queries as Developereo has already pointed so eloquently.

 

[deckingraj]

^^^^^^^^^^^

Hey guys(ASQ and Developereo)...I hope you are not teaming up against me ...Anyways was kidding... Let me reply one by one...

 

[Seadog1]

Wonder how outraged Muslims would be if Israel was just another Islamic Country oppressing people...Saddam slaughter muslims by the tens of thousands even useing posion gas on women and children and the rest of the Islamic world did not even give it a second though.

 

[asq]

It is not a question of teaming up, it is a question of morality and I hope all on this forum will stand up for morality and truthfulness anywhere any time.

Sea dog. have u not read many posts about Muslim countries and the dictatorial system under which Muslim populations are forced to live.

I hope that our leaders in west see the down side of supporting corrupt leaders and on the other hand up side and benefits of supporting honest, decent and democratically elected leaders. Let me put up an article which articulates point noted above.

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Parenti/Why_US_Intervenes.html

 

[deckingraj]

I agree it is not as bad as the Holocaust[/b], but that is exactly the excuse the Israelis use to justify their actions. I can't find the quote but even one ex-Prime Minster complained of some Israelis' tendency to be so dismissive of any criticism.

Not going into circles i agree with your bolded part...Also about the war crimes that Israel has commited...Though its a two way street(Hamas) yet Israel being military very strong bully's Palestine....

Almost all (all?) the Muslim countries who are friendly to Israel are dictatorships where the government does not represent the will of the people. The only exception would be Turkey and I don't know how much of their friendship is based on appeasing the EU and the US.

Every country has to be more or less friendly to the US, given the reality. Doesn't mean we have to like everything the US does.

Your above two posts is what i am trying to say about the Morality part....especially the bolded part....Why cant you see Indian Israel relationship with the same eye??? Why before formal relations with Israel India was accused to support Palestine cause to appease Muslim world and now still being accused to take Palestine people for a ride because they are helpless and on other hand Pakistan co-operation with US is a need but that does not mean they have to agree with everything...Why these different standards???

I do believe one of the main reasons Pakistan has resisted recognizing Israel is because of morality. As you indicated, there is a lot of benefit to be derived from Israel, but we have stood firm as a matter of principle.

Well rest assured Policy makers don't make decisions on emotional ground.. They make decisions on national interests... If not recognizing Israel is due to morality then being an ally of US who is the back bone of Israel in its attrocities agaisnt Palestine is what???

There is a world of difference between giving money to charity and actively developing weapons of war for one side.

Very true...

I could consider India's position if it was engaged in civilian trade and educational/scientific cooperation, but India's engagement with Israel is specifically focussed on military matters.

Comon buddy you can do better than this...Tell me how do you know charity is not getting used agaisnt Israel??? How difficult is to do so??? My point is simple...We have recognized Israel only in 1991...big buck defence deals started only after 1999(Kargil war)...Israel-Palestine conflict is 6 decades old...Be rest assured Israel do not need Indian money to fight with Palestine....

Pfft. Inconsequential, meaningless diplomatic slap on the wrist.

If our support is meaningless tell me any country whose support was/is meaningful??? I would like to learn what is meaningful help...

India threw a bone to the Palestinians and made a calculated public relations ploy for their Arab customers. India has trade with the rest of the Middle East, too, and needs to keep the Arab masses happy.

Stop being hypocrtical...Our trade with Arabs is still going great guns...Are you saying now New Delhi don't need good relations with Arab because last time i heard our relations with Israel are going great guns too???...I hope you are not saying Arabs are also helpless the way Palestine is and have no choice but to choose India as a friend...

The Israelis are smart. They know exactly the game that India is playing; how it needs to keep the Arabs placated while engaging with Israel.

In other words they are OK if India oppose them even on international forums..they will still be our friends and then you say Israel is smart???..Do you have any idea how much it means to oppose someone on an international forum???...Did you see US/China just hinted of meddling in Kashmir and new Delhi created a havoc(resulted in both back tracking)...

The Palestinians are also smart but far more desperate. They have few friends, least of all in the Arab governments, most of whom are two-faced, self-serving dictatorships. Saudi Arabia would gladly give flyover rights to Israel to go bomb Iran. Egypt already helped Israeli dolphins cross the Suez canal as a show of force against Iran.

You like a friend so can't even say stop ranting(would be too strong of a word)....So let me probe into what you said... Palestine accept our help because they are desperate??? So now you are suggesting Palestine as a country who is desperate and have no pride and are ready to take help from a country who is aiding their adversary to wipe them off from the map....Please i would request you to think again and then write what do you mean by above...

I agree that the Israelis have good technology and are smart innovators. But military innovation needs more than just brains. It needs money, lots of it. That's why the Russians have been desperately looking for partners and are happy to take India on board many of their projects.

And your point being???...That's what allies are for...you Benefit from each other...Lets save this discussion for some other time as far as Indian involvement is merely at providing money or more that that...

Globalsecurity is a hardcore pro-Israel outfit. They are notoriously anti-Pakistan, but I did read the article nonetheless. They are saying Pakistan approached Israel mostly as a calculated ploy to stem the growth of the India/Israel military alliance. That's is probably true and it clearly didn't work, not that any sane person could possibly have expected it to.

I guess you guys have misunderstood me a little...My only point of sharing that article was to assert my overall point ... In order to be a true friend of Palestine one doesn't necessarily have to be Anti-israel..Something India has been able to do successfully...Do you see anything wrong in it?? Also are their any talks going on in Pakistan to improve relations with Israel?? However thanks for sharing your thoughts on article...

 

[Seadog1]

Wonder how outraged Muslims would be if Israel was just another Islamic Country oppressing people...Saddam slaughter muslims by the tens of thousands even useing posion gas on women and children and the rest of the Islamic world did not even give it a second though.

Where have Pakistan’s Jews gone?
Reprinted from The Daily Times, Pakistan.

Adil Najam

Tufts-Fletcher-News:

Are we really concerned with right and wrong and the hundreds of thousands of Jews driven from Islamic Countries or just muslims