India feels stragetically checkmated, isolated and cornered in the region

[Turingsage]

First of all, being the biggest aid receiver makes u the biggest beggar,

India is nearly 7 times larger in population than Pakistan. So the aid received was greater in size.

The amount of aid received per person in Pakistan is SEVERAL MULTIPLES to the aid received by India.

Also Pakistan receives aid from China which you ignore. This must be billions per STATE SECRET. The DECLARED aid is in the maps.

Pakistan also "borrows" from the GCC each time IK or Qureshi visit with their begging bowl in hand. No one clearly knows how much as both sides are secretive.

Maps of aid received worldwide

 

[FuturePAF]

We do NOT have a border with Afghanistan.

The Most important point for a number of reasons

 

[FuturePAF]

I am going to say something very controversial on this forum: I, for one Pakistani in this forum, think that Afghanistan would have been better off under the Soviet occupation. Unlike after 9/11 when Pakistan had no choice, in 1979 Pakistan had a choice but Pakistan allied with America/West and other Islamic countries to churn out hundreds of thousands of Holy Warriors in both Afghanistan and Pakistan to fight the Soviets who were uplifting Afghans with education and women participation. I just wished the reforms were done on a slower pace though: Most of Afghans lived in rural areas and were deeply religious. The story of the chaos in Afghanistan from about mid 1970s and the on-going chaos is between the urban educated liberal minority versus rural conservative mostly illiterate peasants.

In short: Afghanistan if the Soviets succeeded, would have become another 'Stan' country: Less dogmatically religious, but more educated, more stable. AND it would be a more responsible neighbor to Pakistan instead of being a neighbor where the leadership would be constantly looking for foreign aid/intervention and thriving on strife.

Having said all this: India is only offering scholarships etc to Afghans to make more A. Saleh like people. India has far less sympathy and civilizational ties with either Afghanistan or Iran than Pakistan has. Indian BS about either Afghanistan or Iran and their people is just that: BS! The goal is to dilute Pakistan's positions in those two countries.

The Soviet invasion tainted their cultural influence on Afghanistan. Also, Soviet backing emboldened not chastened Afghans in terms of their relations with Pakistan. For personal gains, Afghan leaders have wrecked the reputation of liberal democracy, not once but twice. Once under the Soviets and again under the Americans.

 

[Meengla]

The Soviet invasion tainted their cultural influence on Afghanistan. Also, Soviet backing emboldened not chastened Afghans in terms of their relations with Pakistan. For personal gains, Afghan leaders have wrecked the reputation of liberal democracy, not once but twice. Once under the Soviets and again under the Americans.

We all are into to some kind of a guessing game. What could have been, should have been, would have been...
I grew up in the Pakistan of the 1980s when I was beyond a toddler and where the state-owned (and the only tv channel) the Pakistan Television (the PTV) used to air docu-dramas about the 'Mujahideens' fighting the 'infidel' commies. I was a teen ager then. The shows would make you so proud of Pakistan's role and the Mujahideens. And we would see American high officials on regular basis coming to Pakistan and talking to thousands of Afghan refugees, prodding them to fight the infidel Soviets. My dad, of course much older and wiser than me, would say: 'What are these young Afghan men doing here in Pakistan, ha? They should be out there fighting for their country instead of fleeing and fleecing Pakistan!' My dad was not political but he could see the absurdity of the 'Jihad' then which me, a hot-blooded teenager, could not see.
With that said, I will repeat: Pakistan had no choice but to oblige America after 9/11 and Pakistan had to oblige as fast, as much as America wanted and Pakistan would try to get as much out as possible. Only history would judge Pakistan's decisions then but Pakistan certainly averted becoming another Libya, Syria and Iraq then--MUCH to Indian disappointment. But Pakistan's deep involvement in Afghanistan after 1979 was a war of choice which Pakistan's hypocritical and shallow-witted Prime Minister Imran Khan is quiet about forever!! And, yes, however 'Red' would be Afghanistan under the Soviet occupation, it would end up an educated and eventually a responsible State.
I know my position is controversial on PDF but I believe I have the advantages of hindsight having lived in Pakistan and seen Pakistan evolved from a Sufi-oriented country in the 1970s to a country which had started to look like another Iran or Saudi Arabia by the time the Zia ul Haq rule ended--well, not quite as bad as Saudi Arabia and Iran but was getting there had the proto-Taliban Zia ul Haq didn't die.

 

[FuturePAF]

We all are into to some kind of a guessing game. What could have been, should have been, would have been...
I grew up in the Pakistan of the 1980s when I was beyond a toddler and where the state-owned (and the only tv channel) the Pakistan Television (the PTV) used to air docu-dramas about the 'Mujahideens' fighting the 'infidel' commies. I was a teen ager then. The shows would make you so proud of Pakistan's role and the Mujahideens. And we would see American high officials on regular basis coming to Pakistan and talking to thousands of Afghan refugees, prodding them to fight the infidel Soviets. My dad, of course much older and wiser than me, would say: 'What are these young Afghan men doing here in Pakistan, ha? They should be out there fighting for their country instead of fleeing and fleecing Pakistan!' My dad was not political but he could see the absurdity of the 'Jihad' then which me, a hot-blooded teenager, could not see.
With that said, I will repeat: Pakistan had no choice but to oblige America after 9/11 and Pakistan had to oblige as fast, as much as America wanted and Pakistan would try to get as much out as possible. Only history would judge Pakistan's decisions then but Pakistan certainly averted becoming another Libya, Syria and Iraq then--MUCH to Indian disappointment. But Pakistan's deep involvement in Afghanistan after 1979 was a war of choice which Pakistan's hypocritical and shallow-witted Prime Minister Imran Khan is quiet about forever!! And, yes, however 'Red' would be Afghanistan under the Soviet occupation, it would end up an educated and eventually a responsible State.
I know my position is controversial on PDF but I believe I have the advantages of hindsight having lived in Pakistan and seen Pakistan evolved from a Sufi-oriented country in the 1970s to a country which had started to look like another Iran or Saudi Arabia by the time the Zia ul Haq rule ended--well, not quite as bad as Saudi Arabia and Iran but was getting there had the proto-Taliban Zia ul Haq didn't die.

Pakistan needed a unifying force after the events of 1971, so as the 70s progressed, with what was happening in Iran, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, and the Middle East, Islam was politicized in a way it had not been before that, from what I understand.

It was not only Pakistan, but a wave was sweeping over the Muslim world, probably as a result of the perceived failures of “Islamic Socialism” and “Pan-Arab Nationalism” which led people to give other ideologies a chance.

Pair this all with what was Cold War politics and the economic weakness of Muslim nations like Pakistan and the path of least resistance was chosen. Had only we had a more stable economic system in the 60s and followed through on economic development (the famed 20 year plan which South Korea copied) by the time the 70s and 80s come along, it wouldn’t have been as easy for Pakistan to gone the way it did, IMHO. The loss of East Pakistan played a lot into the psychological shift.

This is why, at least now, with the benefit of hindsight, if Pakistan focuses on Economics with full gusto, it can remake itself within a 2 or 3 decades, principally because the average age of the population is 23 and the average age of next door Afghanistan is only 17. The Chinese under 30 basically don’t know a world pre-Deng Xiopings reforms. Universal education for all children and adult literacy programs can really help jump start this change. This time focused on our traditional cultural ethics and mores, and learning real skills for a modern global economy.

 

[Meengla]

Pakistan needed a unifying force after the events of 1971, so as the 70s progressed, with what was happening in Iran, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, and the Middle East, Islam was politicized in a way it had not been before that, from what I understand.

For sure. Two major events happened in Pakistan's neighborhood with huge impacts in late 1970s: A Western oriented, educated, progressive populace in Iran adopted a rigid form of Islam. And a very conservative, largely illiterate populace in Afghanistan were made to aggressively adopt a progressive, communist model of living. What a neighborhood Pakistan has!!
A society has to grow organically unless a strong occupying power like the Soviets changed the 'Stans' over a span of decades. In case of both Afghanistan and Iran, changes were too rapid, too radical. Pakistan must never fall for the idea of 'revolutions' because doing so would make Pakistan a failed state. Pakistan is a Sufi Oriented Islamic country and let the society grow according to that paradigm. Education, peace internally and externally, a welfare society, economic growth, environment management... Those should be the bedrock of Pakistan's existence.

 

[VkdIndian]

India is nearly 7 times larger in population than Pakistan. So the aid received was greater in size.

This aid taking has reduced drastically in last few years by India. These figures quoted by the likes of many experts here are till 2014 based on a publications going around the net.
In fact India is close to becoming a net donor unlike are friends here.

Foreign aid to India - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Moreover, this report that is the basis of these rantings hasn’t really been read by anyone of these. It was dissected threadbare on another thread and the facts came out about who is the beggar in the region.

Croatia to drop €1 billion on used Rafale fighter jets

Why didn't India get these Rafales? They seem to have missed the perfect opportunity

defence.pk

 

[airmarshal]

But Pakistan's deep involvement in Afghanistan after 1979 was a war of choice which Pakistan's hypocritical and shallow-witted Prime Minister Imran Khan is quiet about forever!! And, yes, however 'Red' would be Afghanistan under the Soviet occupation, it would end up an educated and eventually a responsible State.

By not involving ourselves after 9/11, we could have turned the corner.

Until 9/11 beginning from period of end of previous Afghan war, there was this misplaced euphoria that we won a war against the Soviets. This made our policy makers think they could get away taking sides in subsequent Afghan conflict. Even at the time of 9/11, Musharraf was openly hostile to Northern Alliance. As for giving in to Americans, Musharraf was sincere but I remember vividly, he was anxious for his presidency to be given legitimacy and recognition. This and India's hostility towards Pakistan led him to accept all American conditions in haste. He could have negotiated which Imran correctly insists.

On the other side, the mullahs thought they had won a grand jihad. It was this and the popular religious fervor that took hold of our society as result that nobody took a step back to consider that it was CIA's war and it had given it the tinge of jihad to use us idiots to fight their war!

Afghanistan from 1947 has been hostile towards Pakistan, Red or not. Their claim to territory was not Durand Line but upto Western bank of Indus. The only time it had been slightly friendly towards Pakistan was when it was black - that is when led by Taliban between 1996 and 2001. This was not because of them being friends. This was because the Marxists and Pakhtoon nationalists in Pakistan did not get any political space in Afghanistan.

I dont agree with everything Imran Khan does. But he is not a hypocrite nor shallow witted. In fact, he is a very intelligent man who can take a lot of pressure.

 

[Meengla]

By not involving ourselves after 9/11, we could have turned the corner.

Until 9/11 beginning from period of end of previous Afghan war, there was this misplaced euphoria that we won a war against the Soviets. This made our policy makers think they could get away taking sides in subsequent Afghan conflict. Even at the time of 9/11, Musharraf was openly hostile to Northern Alliance. As for giving in to Americans, Musharraf was sincere but I remember vividly, he was anxious for his presidency to be given legitimacy and recognition. This and India's hostility towards Pakistan led him to accept all American conditions in haste. He could have negotiated which Imran correctly insists.

On the other side, the mullahs thought they had won a grand jihad. It was this and the popular religious fervor that took hold of our society as result that nobody took a step back to consider that it was CIA's war and it had given it the tinge of jihad to use us idiots to fight their war!

Afghanistan from 1947 has been hostile towards Pakistan, Red or not. Their claim to territory was not Durand Line but upto Western bank of Indus. The only time it had been slightly friendly towards Pakistan was when it was black - that is when led by Taliban between 1996 and 2001. This was not because of them being friends. This was because the Marxists and Pakhtoon nationalists in Pakistan did not get any political space in Afghanistan.

I dont agree with everything Imran Khan does. But he is not a hypocrite nor shallow witted. In fact, he is a very intelligent man who can take a lot of pressure.

Musharraf should be tried for his Kargil mis-adventure but his actions after 9/11 were absolutely needed and needed in quick manners. Pakistan was a very weak country, America was enraged, and there was absolutely no one to support Pakistan after 9/11. There was no room to 'negotiate' and there was no time to negotiate then. These matters have been stated by the former Foreign Minister Khurshid Kasuri who was not responsible for the actions then--he quotes the former Foreign Sec. Abdul Sattar. Go and educate yourself!! The fact is that Pakistan as a country was guilty by association. Pakistan did try to help America to nab OBL before 9/11 but Pakistan had failed on that count. Pakistan even handed over, without due legal process, the person who was responsible for some attack in America before 9/11; I am forgetting the details but the guy was nabbed from Quetta. Pakistan cooperated with America and the CIA/Pentagon know Pakistan's help very well to this day!! Anyway, After the attacks on US Embassies in Africa and after USS Cole attack and others, it was only a matter of time before something like the 9/11 attack would happen. And, YES, this was an Al Qaida job and the only reason they didn't own that attack-unlike owning previous attacks--was this was too much to take the 'credit' for. Go see what an informed journalist like Pakistan's Hamid Mir says about that after 9/11: He is clear the 9/11 was an Al Qaida attack. The conspiracy theorists here need to realize: A '3rd grade burglary' cost Nixon his Presidency and here you expect an attack like 9/11 would not be traced and blamed to someone inside America?? People don't know how cut-throat and opportunistic American political system really, really is!

As for Imran Khan--I support him only because there is no alternative. Pakistan needs a sincere, non-corrupt, and a business-like leader. He fits the bill. But he makes dumb $ss statements about foreign policies and he is a hypocrite and an opportunist when trying to claim that he is the one who has always talked about 'dialogue' with the Taliban. The idiot should know that 'dialogue' was always on the offer after 9/11 but the terms the Taliban wanted--whether in Afghanistan or Pakistan--were totally unacceptable. It was the blood and sweat of the Pakistanis who beat the Taliban in Pakistan--not some dialogue. He insults Pakistanis sacrifices to score political points. I would go as far as to say: If Imran Khan had his way--Swat and the erstwhile FATA regions would be still under the Taliban rule. And perhaps Imran Khan wouldn't care much either-- he seems like one of those 60+ year old Pakistanis who find solace in religion after a life of philandry and gluttony, which he sure did in his younger years.

 

[FuturePAF]

For sure. Two major events happened in Pakistan's neighborhood with huge impacts in late 1970s: A Western oriented, educated, progressive populace in Iran adopted a rigid form of Islam. And a very conservative, largely illiterate populace in Afghanistan were made to aggressively adopt a progressive, communist model of living. What a neighborhood Pakistan has!!
A society has to grow organically unless a strong occupying power like the Soviets changed the 'Stans' over a span of decades. In case of both Afghanistan and Iran, changes were too rapid, too radical. Pakistan must never fall for the idea of 'revolutions' because doing so would make Pakistan a failed state. Pakistan is a Sufi Oriented Islamic country and let the society grow according to that paradigm. Education, peace internally and externally, a welfare society, economic growth, environment management... Those should be the bedrock of Pakistan's existence.

That’s why this time, Pakistan needs to get back to economic development as its primary focus. Pakistan should complete fencing on both of its western borders and make sure the navy and marines can prevent any infiltration from the sea, and the LEA can move on to fully resourced domestic policing so no rogue elements are allowed to operate unchecked.

 

[Titanium100]

The Most important point for a number of reasons

Atleast they are not in delulu regarding that part

 

[FuturePAF]

Musharraf should be tried for his Kargil mis-adventure but his actions after 9/11 were absolutely needed and needed in quick manners. Pakistan was a very weak country, America was enraged, and there was absolutely no one to support Pakistan after 9/11. There was no room to 'negotiate' and there was no time to negotiate then. These matters have been stated by the former Foreign Minister Khurshid Kasuri who was not responsible for the actions then--he quotes the former Foreign Sec. Abdul Sattar. Go and educate yourself!! The fact is that Pakistan as a country was guilty by association. Pakistan did try to help America to nab OBL before 9/11 but Pakistan had failed on that count. Pakistan even handed over, without due legal process, the person who was responsible for some attack in America before 9/11; I am forgetting the details but the guy was nabbed from Quetta. Pakistan cooperated with America and the CIA/Pentagon know Pakistan's help very well to this day!! Anyway, After the attacks on US Embassies in Africa and after USS Cole attack and others, it was only a matter of time before something like the 9/11 attack would happen. And, YES, this was an Al Qaida job and the only reason they didn't own that attack-unlike owning previous attacks--was this was too much to take the 'credit' for. Go see what an informed journalist like Pakistan's Hamid Mir says about that after 9/11: He is clear the 9/11 was an Al Qaida attack. The conspiracy theorists here need to realize: A '3rd grade burglary' cost Nixon his Presidency and here you expect an attack like 9/11 would not be traced and blamed to someone inside America?? People don't know how cut-throat and opportunistic American political system really, really is!

As for Imran Khan--I support him only because there is no alternative. Pakistan needs a sincere, non-corrupt, and a business-like leader. He fits the bill. But he makes dumb $ss statements about foreign policies and he is a hypocrite and an opportunist when trying to claim that he is the one who has always talked about 'dialogue' with the Taliban. The idiot should know that 'dialogue' was always on the offer after 9/11 but the terms the Taliban wanted--whether in Afghanistan or Pakistan--were totally unacceptable. It was the blood and sweat of the Pakistanis who beat the Taliban in Pakistan--not some dialogue. He insults Pakistanis sacrifices to score political points. I would go as far as to say: If Imran Khan had his way--Swat and the erstwhile FATA regions would be still under the Taliban rule. And perhaps Imran Khan wouldn't care much either-- he seems like one of those 60+ year old Pakistanis who find solace in religion after a life of philandry and gluttony, which he sure did in his younger years.

Imran Khan is the best our political system has produced. We need a school or series of schools (beyond the current law schools) which produce leaders from the ground up to learn, embrace and protect Pakistan’s interests. Right or wrong, that has been the Pakistani military, by and large. This is why most of the tiger economies of east Asia had a period of 30-40 years of authoritarian military dominated governance, under which pragmatic politicians developed so that the military could step aside and become apolitical. While I hope Pakistan doesn’t have to go through that to catch up, I hope the masses get educated so our politicians can up their game, and focus on the national interests and not political maneuvering against each other.

Atleast they are not in delulu regarding that part

The honest ones admit it, while those looking to posture claim it to justify their interference in Afghanistan as part of a proxy effort against Pakistan.

 

[Titanium100]

Imran Khan is the best our political system has produced. We need a school or series of schools (beyond the current law schools) which produce leaders from the ground up to learn, embrace and protect Pakistan’s interests. Right or wrong, that has been the Pakistani military, by and large. This is why most of the tiger economies of east Asia had a period of 30-40 years of authoritarian military dominated governance, under which pragmatic politicians developed so that the military could step aside and become apolitical. While I hope Pakistan doesn’t have to go through that to catch up, I hope the masses get educated so our politicians can up their game, and focus on the national interests and not political maneuvering against each other.

The honest ones admit it, while those looking to posture claim it to justify their interference in Afghanistan as part of a proxy effort against Pakistan.

They have been staring at the ceiling at empty spots they are not even relevant in the larger picture