India faces threat from China, Pakistan: Jaswant

[muse]

Vish and Salim

Your reaction is so defensive and entirely inappropriate - if indeed you feel as defensively about this as your post suggests, then try the truth - that way you will not need to be defensive.

I cannot fathom why, but some of our Indian contingent seem to think it is their mission to suggest that india is a land of milk and honey - guys, if that was true you would not have to sell it so hard -- take it easy, and come and talk on a level of humans and not web warriors, this is after all not WAB or PDF - you are not among enemies and its not as if we do not know the truth about the kinds of maladies afflict our societies.

If yo are really so upset about these muslims in your midst, and I can understand that from a certain persepective, their presence is a defilment of the holy mother - on the other hand they are a reality and as one Indian Muslim recently told me, "we are still a force in society even though we are marginalized when it comes to education, professional opportunities and government jobs but and we are trying but anti-muslim feeling is ever present" by the way, this man was once a police trainer and still very proud of the guys he trained.

Like I said to you before, take it or leave it - but please to be sane and reasonable in your reaction - you behave as if I pushed some button - and any way I did not mean to.

 

[vish]

Vish and Salim

Your reaction is so defensive and entirely inappropriate - if indeed you feel as defensively about this as your post suggests, then try the truth - that way you will not need to be defensive.

I cannot fathom why, but some of our Indian contingent seem to think it is their mission to suggest that india is a land of milk and honey - guys, if that was true you would not have to sell it so hard -- take it easy, and come and talk on a level of humans and not web warriors, this is after all not WAB or PDF - you are not among enemies and its not as if we do not know the truth about the kinds of maladies afflict our societies.

If yo are really so upset about these muslims in your midst, and I can understand that from a certain persepective, their presence is a defilment of the holy mother - on the other hand they are a reality and as one Indian Muslim recently told me, "we are still a force in society even though we are marginalized when it comes to education, professional opportunities and government jobs but and we are trying but anti-muslim feeling is ever present" by the way, this man was once a police trainer and still very proud of the guys he trained.

Like I said to you before, take it or leave it - but please to be sane and reasonable in your reaction - you behave as if I pushed some button - and any way I did not mean to.

Dude, you post that and argue about sanity?

I don't say that all is paradise in India, but India and non-Muslim Indians are not as anti-Muslim as you make them out to be.

 

[muse]

I don't know what you are on - but I have only said you what Indian muslims I speak to have related to me.

If you point is that there is no discrimination in India - OK by me India is heaven on earth and if these are the terms that you are happy with - please by all means. you can take it or leave it - but the whole point of these interacts is to learn that there are any number of points of views that we might consider - or not - right? what exactly are you so hot about? You must try and not be so sheltered, problems are something common to all of us, our task is to solve problems and be begin by knowing about problems - right? So what are u so hot about?

After all, are naxalites not a problem? is communalism not a problem? isn't caste a problem? -- so why behave as if the world is your enemy, instead of behaving as if you bubble just burst, you might begin by acknowledging problems as if you are discussing with people who can be empathetic and learn from you?

 

[vish]

I don't know what you are on - but I have only said you what Indian muslims I speak to have related to me.

I have met Indian Muslims; yes they feel discriminated... but they also say that they would be here than anywhere else.

If you point is that there is no discrimination in India - OK by me India is heaven on earth and if these are the terms that you are happy with - please by all means. you can take it or leave it - but the whole point of these interacts is to learn that there are any number of points of views that we might consider - or not - right? what exactly are you so hot about? You must try and not be so sheltered, problems are something common to all of us, our task is to solve problems and be begin by knowing about problems - right? So what are u so hot about?

When did I say that there is no discrimination in India? Ofcourse there is. But to suggest that India, as a whole, and Indians, hundreds of millions of them, are anti-Muslim, as you are doing, is incorrect. Yes there are unhappy Muslims in India; what you conveniently overlook is the fact that there are unhappy Hindus, Sikhs and Buddhists too. We know our problems better than you because we live here. Don't go by an article while forming your views on the plight of the Indian Muslims, as if these are the only lot of unhappy people in India. You're the one who started this all by sensationalizing that "India is threatened by Indian Muslims"...

After all, are naxalites not a problem? is communalism not a problem? isn't caste a problem? -- so why behave as if the world is your enemy, instead of behaving as if you bubble just burst, you might begin by acknowledging problems as if you are discussing with people who can be empathetic and learn from you?

Ofcourse, communalism, Naxalism, and casteism are our problems. There is abundance of these and my country well-being is threatened by these. You jump the gun assuming that we only talk fantasyland stuff... perhaps sensationalizing again.

Stop whinning "what are you hot about?" I'll answer your question: your subtle manipulation of facts.

 

[Flintlock]

Identity politics is indeed a big problem in India, where politicians tend to shy away from real issues and use emotive (and hence divisive) ones to get votes en-masse.

Mulayam and Mayawati's loud proclamations on the nuke deal are meant to rally muslim votes.
Even staunchly secular parties like the CPI(M) are guilty of wooing muslim votebanks by creating a din on issues such as picture of the Prophet in some obscure book etc. etc.

However, since India is a democracy, things work bottom-up. Until and unless people smarten up and stop falling prey to such empty rhetoric, their votes will continue to be bought cheaply.

As far as discrimination is concerned, there are several types of discrimination in India, and I need not repeat that India is a very complex and diverse country.
Different parts of India have different levels and types of discrimination. Gujarat is indeed highly polarized, whereas Kerala is the opposite.
Haryana and Punjab has severe gender discrimination but Tamil Nadu fares much better.
North-east India too has very little or no gender discrimination, but there is a lot of anti-hindu sentiment built up by evangelizing missionaries.

Each state in India has its own unique history, and hence unique attitudes. Gujarat has always been famous for its religious riots for hundreds of years. The reasons are quite simple: Gujarat has borne the brunt of Islamic invaders for much of its history. Much of the anti-muslim sentiment has to do with how the locals experienced Islam in the past.

On the other hand, southern states like Karnataka, TN, Andhra had very different experiences with Islam. Kerala was never invaded by muslim rulers, and all its muslims are converts from evangelical merchants or traders. So you will never hear of communal riots in Kerala.

Similarly, Caste-based discrimination is severe in some states, and almost non-existent in others. The severe caste problems in UP and MP for example, are a result of several factors including the policies of the British, which pitted communities against each other in order to keep their hold on power.

So muse, we do thoroughly understand the nature of problems in India, which is why our leaders have been able to hold together such a vast country.
However, when Pakistanis accuse Indians of mistreating Muslims, it tends to hit a nerve simply because Pakistan has a very poor record as far as introspection is concerned.

 

[muse]

So you are hot that you made a silly comment and you want to blame me for it?

Is it too much for you say, yeah, maybe that was a ill considered comment? OK baba - my mistake, my error - happy?

"But to suggest that India, as a whole, and Indians, hundreds of millions of them, are anti-Muslim, as you are doing, is incorrect. Yes there are unhappy Muslims in India"

Perhaps you did not read the author of the piece, Aijaz something or other, not muse. And listen, no chufungi tricks, the point was not that muslims or hindus or martians are unhappy - or happy - the point was that they feel discrimination in every aspect of life -- now it may be their own shortcoming but of course you may have a point. And again, no one has asserted neither the author nor I that all Indians are discriminating against muslims - but if you need that straw man for your argument, please feel free to use it -- I merely suggest that you may discuss honestly.

btw - what do you think of the "chufungi" --

 

[vish]

So you are hot that you made a silly comment and you want to blame me for it?

What silly comment? To suggest that the state is above the religion is silly? You twisted my comment to suit your agends.

Is it too much for you say, yeah, maybe that was a ill considered comment? OK baba - my mistake, my error - happy?

When did I say they are perfectly happy or they do not feel discriminated...? Ofcourse they do... but the way you put it across is so misleading.

You still ignore the fact that I mentioned that I'll say the same statement to followers of any religion?

"But to suggest that India, as a whole, and Indians, hundreds of millions of them, are anti-Muslim, as you are doing, is incorrect. Yes there are unhappy Muslims in India"

Perhaps you did not read the author of the piece, Aijaz something or other, not muse. And listen, no chufungi tricks, the point was not that muslims or hindus or martians are unhappy - or happy - the point was that they feel discrimination in every aspect of life -- now it may be their own shortcoming but of course you may have a point. And again, no one has asserted neither the author nor I that all Indians are discriminating against muslims - but if you need that straw man for your argument, please feel free to use it -- I merely suggest that you may discuss honestly.

Dude, I read the article, inspite of the fact that the colouring and bolding is real "dhinchak." The point that you made is that the Indian Muslims threaten India; this is what I'm contesting. You jumped on the bandwagon boasting about my anti-Muslim "stance" and how it benefits Pakistan in the long run.

The author clearly is saying that "nobody in India cares for the Muslims because India is cosying up to America and Isreal." We are cosying up to India and Isreal because it is good for us. If Muslims feel otherwise due to their psuedo-obligations, then what can be done? Listen to their non-realpolitik views?

btw - what do you think of the "chufungi" --

I did not get what is "chufungi."

 

[Keysersoze]

M.Khurram khan appears to be a fraud gentlemen please do not bother with him

 

[muse]

Vish

Go back and check my original post, tell me and everbody else here if it is different from this : "Threatened by China, Pakistan and maybe Indian Muslims, too?"

You will note the question mark - vish, there are any number of sides to any issue and any number of persuasive arguments to be made -- in almost all cases, my posts are meant to intiate discussion or debate - there is no reason for you to go so personal, I don't know you, it's not personal anything, it's just an attempt at reasoned debate.

You could have said that it is a problem and that muslims in india do tend to think that the indo-us deal is essentially anti-muslim because it will put in a US orbit - and what the effect on the indo US nuclear deal will be, you don't know or do know -- but instead 5 or 6 posts in which I am not just an interlocutor but a bad guy because you said something that is not just difficult to defend but also adds to the argument in the Aijaz xxx piece.

 

[vish]

Vish

Go back and check my original post, tell me and everbody else here if it is different from this : "Threatened by China, Pakistan and maybe Indian Muslims, too?"

That is what I'm contesting. But now I'll ask what is being threatened? You answer.

You will note the question mark - vish, there are any number of sides to any issue and any number of persuasive arguments to be made -- in almost all cases, my posts are meant to intiate discussion or debate - there is no reason for you to go so personal, I don't know you, it's not personal anything, it's just an attempt at reasoned debate.

Neither am I being personal; if it appears so, it is only for the length of the argument.

Reasoned debate is poles apart from sensationalism.

This is what I've said: "Indian Muslims are Indian first and Muslims later; otherwise they are welcome to abandon ship. Further, I'll say the same for any other religion."

What wrong did I say? You are adding a twist to it by implying that I'm telling every Muslim to get out.

Further, answer my query: Are not Pakistani non-Muslims Pakistanis first and then members of their respective religions?

You could have said that it is a problem and that muslims in india do tend to think that the indo-us deal is essentially anti-muslim because it will put in a US orbit - and what the effect on the indo US nuclear deal will be, you don't know or do know -- but instead 5 or 6 posts in which I am not just an interlocutor but a bad guy because you said something that is not just difficult to defend but also adds to the argument in the Aijaz xxx piece.

That dude's write-up is crap for he ignores one simple thing -- realpolitik. He is suggesting that the nuclear deal is bad for India because it will "restrict" India. He then links this somewhat-right assertion to the Muslims' objection to this deal by stating that India is joining hands with anti-muslim forces and this will offend Indian Muslims.

This is the reason why I made my abovementioned statement. I'll stand by my statement and I'll quote again (PS: This time read it entirely after the first fullstop):

Indian Muslims are Indian first and Muslims later; otherwise they are welcome to abandon ship. Further, I'll say the same for any other religion.

 

[M.KHURRAM.KHAN [747 ARMY]]

I am not fraud.Why you said me fraud

 

[BATMAN]

I find it painful when someone whines over religion and how everyone discriminates!

If the Jews are doing well, how are they doing so when they were hated in Europe?

Let us not blame Hitler alone. Anti Jew feeling was historically universal in Europe.

Yet, the Jews made themselves indispensable in all walks of life and they could not be ignored!

What stops people of the Islamic faith to do the same, instead of cringing and whining and blaming everyone?

Be bold and face the world on its terms and conquer it like the Jews!!

Can you or you are not of the same mettle?

^^To whom are you talking? sorry to say, but totally out of context!

And why do you see only evil in Muslims? or are you just trying to rant here?

It seems you are very fond of highlighting religous issues and than for few days you keep on beating the same bush!

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Vish and Salim

Your reaction is so defensive and entirely inappropriate - if indeed you feel as defensively about this as your post suggests, then try the truth - that way you will not need to be defensive.

I cannot fathom why, but some of our Indian contingent seem to think it is their mission to suggest that india is a land of milk and honey - guys, if that was true you would not have to sell it so hard -- take it easy, and come and talk on a level of humans and not web warriors, this is after all not WAB or PDF - you are not among enemies and its not as if we do not know the truth about the kinds of maladies afflict our societies.

If yo are really so upset about these muslims in your midst, and I can understand that from a certain persepective, their presence is a defilment of the holy mother - on the other hand they are a reality and as one Indian Muslim recently told me, "we are still a force in society even though we are marginalized when it comes to education, professional opportunities and government jobs but and we are trying but anti-muslim feeling is ever present" by the way, this man was once a police trainer and still very proud of the guys he trained.

Like I said to you before, take it or leave it - but please to be sane and reasonable in your reaction - you behave as if I pushed some button - and any way I did not mean to.

The issue of defensive is not there. In fact, you are yourself defensive.

India is not a land of milk and honey as is so obvious if one observes the various issues that are there in India.

People of the Islamic faith are not marginalised. It should be understood that those who did not join the exodus to Pakistan during the Partition were either those who had vast properties (and did not want to forsake the same) or the very poor of the artisan category. The second category was the majority. They have not made much effort to educate themselves since they were satisfied (as is the attitude of all of this class, irrespective of religion) with their ancestral profession since it was guaranteeing their rozi roti. That is why there still quite a huge number, who are semi literate in India and it is not any special attribute of the people of the Islamic faith in India. It i obvious that without education one cannot join any profession that requires basic education.

Yet, now the people of the Islamic faith have realised that without education and ambition, there can be no progress. This news report should give you some cheer:

Maulana Becoming IAS Officer: Time to Celebrate or a Matter to Deliberate for Madrasas
ShareThisJun 22 2008 | Views 83 | Comments (0) Leave a Comment

Maulana Becoming IAS Officer

Time to Celebrate or a Matter to Deliberate for Madrasas

Muhammadullah Khalili Qasmi

Maulana Becoming IAS Officer: Time to Celebrate or a Matter to Deliberate for Madrasas : Maulana Becoming IAS Officer: Time to Celebrate or a Matter to Deliberate for Madrasas, Khalili blogs on sulekha, General blogs, Khalili blog from india

Therefore it is essential to understand the environment.

I find your syntax is more of a cyber warrior concerned about the Holy Mother rather than us. Just go over the post to realise so.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

^^To whom are you talking? sorry to say, but totally out of context!

And why do you see only evil in Muslims? or are you just trying to rant here?

It seems you are very fond of highlighting religous issues and than for few days you keep on beating the same bush!

Surely not talking to you; be rest assured.

Where did you drop in from?

Since you are not aware of the context, there is no requirement for me to fill you in.

 

[ejaz007]

Salim,
When did you beat bush and are you still in India or in _____?