India Considers Buying More Boeing Apaches

[BLING]

AUSTERLITZ Good Question ! But what about Tibet ? Its mountains Too?

Even place like Arunachal,Ladakh ?

 

[jhungary]

I get that sir, but does that mean there is no point in planning for the future??

India is hardly like to fight an all out war with Pakistan and China tommorow (the later especially so). The simple fact is that the Indian defece establishment having serious procurement budgets is only a very recent phenomena as such it will take time for the Indian military to enact their plans and get to where they want to be.


The way things stand today is not nessercarily the way things will stand tomorrow or the day after that......

I am not saying country should throw away plan for the future, I am just saying it's more important to focus and plan your move with the stuff you have now rather than plan your move according to the stuff you might have in the future.

Problem with planning with future asset always go down in tears......Trust me, been in the very forefront of the firing line, I know how things does not goes your way feel.....

One bad miscalculation on ur part is t-90 tier 2 but al khalid tier 1.T-90 can take on any chinese or pakistani tank any where.we do have around 1000 of them.To compare t-90 to type-96 is incorrect.T-90 can eat that tank for lunch.
Chinese armour also has several design flaws in armour .

You sort of misunderstood the term Teir-1 does not mean anything, but just premier MBT, tier-2 does not mean they sucked or any worse than Tier-1. Just use Abrams for an example. Granted M1 and M1A2 are technologically different, but does that mean M1A1 with HA or certain upgrade can't fight a M1A2?

The tier is response to a mixed command structure, it would have no point (even stupid) to line all M1A2 in the same unit or Arjun in the same squadron, in battle, you mix and match. The Tier are referring to their operational function. For example. By definition, Tier 1 tank should be able to withstand a head on assault from a combine Armour taskforce onslaught. While Tier-1 stop enemy onslaught, Tier-2 rolled enemy back and counter attack, while Tier 3 deal with advancing infantry. Reason behind this is Tier 1 is most technological advance and they can take on numerous target at once or pinpoint and disrupt enemy's command structure, Tier 2 are most numerous and you need those tidal wave to roll your enemy, Tier 3 is just reserve and they are obsolete and they are to deal with second class threat.


This is always how Armor warfare worked. We don't use tank singularly nor use them as Static defence...

The tier System would have make much more sense in the west as the west usually use a single tank with different version to perform specific task. However, country like China, India, Pakistan, they do use different tank (not just different variation) in their armour brigade, this will make this even more clouded when using the western system on country like India, China or Pakistan or any country that uses more than 1 type of tank. traditional wisdom suggest Tier 1 vs Tier 1, Tier 2 vs Tier 2 and so on

 

[Abingdonboy]

@jhungary sir, believe me- I fully understand what you are saying and I'm sure the Indian military have these sort of plans utilising what they have today. Not to mention future plans taking into account future assets. The fact that India is not likely to go to war with either Pakistan or china anytime soon means the Indian military has some room to grow in capabilty and draw up plans.


I don't know what more I can say, year on year the Indian military is absorbing new tech and equipment so their plans are always going to be changing.

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

AUSTERLITZ Good Question ! But what about Tibet ? Its mountains Too?

Even place like Arunachal,Ladakh ?

Tibet and arunachal is mostly completely mountanous,more importantly its rugged with bad road infrastructure...unfeasible as tank terrain mostly.
Ladakh has flat terrain in places.
Light tanks are possibiity in places.

 

[longewala]

In the US, we have M1A2 as Tier 1, M1/M1A1 as tier 2, Selected M60, M2/3 as tier 3.
Indian Classification would be Arjun as T-1, T-90 as T-2, T-72 as T-3
Chinese Classification would be T-99 as T-1, T-96 as Tier 2, T-88, T-79, T-69 as Tier 3
Pakistan classification would be Al-Khalid as T-1, T-80 as T-2, type 85, 69, 55 as Tier 3

When you compare the matrix of Tier 1, you will see you get some 150 Arjun vs some 500 Type 99 and some 300 Al Khalid. Doesn't matter how well you spin your capability, you are running a 1 v 7 odds. For ever 1 shor fire by Arjun there are 7 shot fired from Type 99 and Al-Khalid. Survival rate is not good. However, when you look at supporting roles, this is where you get really alarming when you see 900 T-90 vs ~2000 type 96 and TU-80

Way off.

Firstly, 2/3rds of the 8000-strong Chinese tank force are obsolte T-59/79 tanks. Even modern infantry RPGs can handle these with ease, and they would stand no chance against any modern armour such as the Indian T-90s.
Secondly, the Chinese would be able to send at most a few hundred tanks against India, given the logitical difficulties and terrain, and because they need most of their tnks to defend the rest of their country. Vietnam, Russia and Hong Kong would be delighted if you send 5000 tanks against Ladakh, because we won't even bother with the tanks, we will simply take out their supply lines and roads, and you would end up with thousands of useless tanks with no fuel or ammo, stranded on the mountains.

That is why the Indian deal for 354 T-90MS sepcifically for the North-East. That is the ideal number supported by that front. And superior to anything the Chinese can throw at ot other than the Type-99s. 354 T-90MS and a few hundred T-72 versus even a thousand t-59/79/96 would be a one-sided battle.

So, the way to look at it is, take out 500 T-72 tanks from the current Indian fleet for the Chinese, and then assess vs Pakistan.
And then, your tank classification is way off. It's more relevant to look at it as a 2- tier system, and it is safe to put Khalid / T-90 / T-80 in the same bracket.

Tier 1: about 1,100 Arjun / T-90 (and growing fast) versus 500 Khalid + 320 T-80, a ratio of 1.3 to 1.
Tier 2: 2,418 T-72 (minus 500 for the China front) versus 600 Al-Zarrar, 300 Type-85, 400 Type-69, maybe a few hundred T-59, a ratio of 1.2 to 1.

And two things worth remembering: the stock of tier-1 tanks deployed is increasing much faster on India's side, we should have 2400 by the end of the decade (adding 200-300 Arjun mk-2 and total of 1657 T-90, plus 354 for North-eaast), and will outnumber Pakistan almost 2-1.
And, the quality of India's Tier-2 is far superior. Upgraded T-72, mostly built in the last 25 years, versus a pakistani fleet that is 75% T-69 or T-55 variants that are 40-years old?

 

[jhungary]

Way off.

Firstly, 2/3rds of the 8000-strong Chinese tank force are obsolte T-59/79 tanks. Even modern infantry RPGs can handle these with ease, and they would stand no chance against any modern armour such as the Indian T-90s.

Have you ever served in the Military??

Your concept of Armour warfare is not really the way we do battle in 21st century, not even in the WW2 era......

A lot of information in your post are either misinformed or simply untrue.

1st of all, full inventory of PLA Army armour is as follow

Type 59 - ~5000
Type 69/79 - ~200
Type 88 - ~500
Type 96 - ~1500
Type 99 - ~500

And it's not as easy as you said as to "Even modern infantry RPGs can handle these with ease" If you believe so then you should get a RPG-29 and stand in front of a Type 69 and try to shoot it down.

Secondly, the Chinese would be able to send at most a few hundred tanks against India, given the logitical difficulties and terrain, and because they need most of their tnks to defend the rest of their country. Vietnam, Russia and Hong Kong would be delighted if you send 5000 tanks against Ladakh, because we won't even bother with the tanks, we will simply take out their supply lines and roads, and you would end up with thousands of useless tanks with no fuel or ammo, stranded on the mountains.

While it's true PLA can only send a few hundred tank into India because of the terrain, but the reverse is also true. And You have to be stupid to assume Russia and Vietnam will do something if India are at war with China. I don't even know why Hong Kong made your list.

And how do you propose to take out the Chinese MSR??

That is why the Indian deal for 354 T-90MS sepcifically for the North-East. That is the ideal number supported by that front. And superior to anything the Chinese can throw at ot other than the Type-99s. 354 T-90MS and a few hundred T-72 versus even a thousand t-59/79/96 would be a one-sided battle.

China do not only have type 99 you know? You seriously underestimate the capability of the Chinese while seriously overestimate Indian own capability. You sure your 300 something t-90 Force can survive an onslaught of a few hundred Type 99 and Type 96?

So, the way to look at it is, take out 500 T-72 tanks from the current Indian fleet for the Chinese, and then assess vs Pakistan.
And then, your tank classification is way off. It's more relevant to look at it as a 2- tier system, and it is safe to put Khalid / T-90 / T-80 in the same bracket.
Tier 1: about 1,100 Arjun / T-90 (and growing fast) versus 500 Khalid + 320 T-80, a ratio of 1.3 to 1.
Tier 2: 2,418 T-72 (minus 500 for the China front) versus 600 Al-Zarrar, 300 Type-85, 400 Type-69, maybe a few hundred T-59, a ratio of 1.2 to 1.

That was not my classification you know, this is the US Army Armour warfare doctrine classification, it have been taught to 19X for quite sometime now, and I say again. THE TIER CLASSIFICATION IS NOT BASE ON THE TECHNOLOGY AND PERFORMANCE OF A CERTAIN ARMOR The tier system is based on their function. I cannot blame you as you have absolute no knowledge of how modern Armour/Cavalry warfare are conducted. It's based on Reaction (Tier 1), Offensive (Tier 2) and Supporting (Tier 3) roles, not base on individual tank performance.

It not like playing poker, which you play your card as your wishes......

And two things worth remembering: the stock of tier-1 tanks deployed is increasing much faster on India's side, we should have 2400 by the end of the decade (adding 200-300 Arjun mk-2 and total of 1657 T-90, plus 354 for North-eaast), and will outnumber Pakistan almost 2-1.
And, the quality of India's Tier-2 is far superior. Upgraded T-72, mostly built in the last 25 years, versus a pakistani fleet that is 75% T-69 or T-55 variants that are 40-years old?

Well, I can understand your patriotism and all, but if you do think what you are saying is indeed correct, then you have a serious logical problem. On the one side, you discounted almost all equipment from China, on the other hand you give unlimited support value for Indian kits. It will be an understatement to call your post "Biased" while fan boy chest thumping is a better and more suitable word

 

[jhungary]

@jhungary sir, believe me- I fully understand what you are saying and I'm sure the Indian military have these sort of plans utilising what they have today. Not to mention future plans taking into account future assets. The fact that India is not likely to go to war with either Pakistan or china anytime soon means the Indian military has some room to grow in capabilty and draw up plans.


I don't know what more I can say, year on year the Indian military is absorbing new tech and equipment so their plans are always going to be changing.

lol, this is a good thing, with more new tech and more new equipment, you need a better training, I have never met an Indian Soldier before and I have never train with them before, but you guys could not be any worse than those Afghani I trained back in 2005

But in the end, high tech gear and stuff like that won't save you in the battlefield, you have to have a decent command structure, C4I(SR) is very important too, don't ever forget about it

 

[Anonymous_CryptoSpy]

Tibet and arunachal is mostly completely mountanous,more importantly its rugged with bad road infrastructure...unfeasible as tank terrain mostly.
Ladakh has flat terrain in places.
Light tanks are possibiity in places.

bro,mistake, arunachal is mountainous, Tibet is mostly plateau ,(thus IA got some tactical edge).
PS I hail from northeast

 

[Rocky25]

Self delete!

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

bro,mistake, arunachal is mountainous, Tibet is mostly plateau ,(thus IA got some tactical edge).
PS I hail from northeast

Man, tibet is on chinese side and yeah ladakh is western edge of tibet.Facing chinese tibet is arunachal on our side which is mountanous,thats what i meant mate.

 

[Tshering22]

Personally, I think we should not go for a repeat order so soon and instead speed up LCH work to join us in more numbers, faster and ON TIME (that's the key word here).

LCH was created for this purpose: high altitude warfare in the Himalayan terrain, which the Apache cannot handle because of its heavier payload and lesser ceiling on full load.