India considering lease of second Russian nuclear submarine

[RPK]

India considering lease of second Russian nuclear submarine : South News - India Today


Union Defence Minister AK Antony on Wednesday said that India was considering a proposal to lease a second Russian-built nuclear powered attack submarine. "There is a proposal, but we haven't taken a decision yet," Antony told the media at the induction of India's first nuclear-powered attack submarine (SSN), the INS Chakra. Antony did not reveal who had made the proposal, but sources say it was made by Russia a few years back. Funds are clearly not a problem. "India can afford it (the second submarine). It is reasonable," Antony said.

The Russian-built INS Chakra has been leased from Russia for ten years. It was inducted into the navy at a small function organized at 'Jetty X' a secured anchorage inside the Shipbuilding Centre (SBC) near the naval dockyard Vizag.

The boat and its crew of 84 personnel arrived in India on May 31 after a submerged passage from Vladivostok lasting over 50 days. The induction of the INS Chakra has catapulted India into an elite club of five nations operating nuclear powered submarines.

Initially, India had planned to lease two Akula-class submarines, originally built for the Soviet navy. The lease, however, was signed in 2003 only for a single SSN. The prohibitive cost was one of the reasons cited for this decision. The total cost of the lease is around $1 billion (Rs 5,000 crore).

Antony said that the Chakra would play a major role in reshaping the Indian Navy's maritime security. As the 8,000-ton submarine's nuclear powered reactor hummed silently in the water below, dignitaries including Russia's envoy to New Delhi, Alexander Kadakin, hailed the induction as a landmark in Indo-Russian defence cooperation. "No other country is ready to share everything," Kadakin said, referring to joint ventures like the BrahMos supersonic cruise missile and the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft.

Armed with anti-ship and land-attack cruise missiles and torpedoes, the Chakra is a huge force multiplier. Navy chief admiral Nirmal Kumar Verma said the induction of the Chakra would increase the navy's operational flexibility and contribute to its presence in the Indian Ocean Region (IOR).

The SBC in Vizag is a highly secured facility in Vizag guarded by electrified wire, dogs and Marine Commandos. It is the core of India's ambition for a nuclear navy under the Advanced Technology Vessel (ATV) project jointly run by the navy, DRDO and Bhabha Atomic Research Centre (BARC). Media persons were first let in here in July 2009 for the launch of the INS Arihant, the country's first indigenously constructed ballistic missile submarine (SSBN). "In the coming months and years, you will have to come here for many more functions," Antony told media persons. The Arihant began harbor trials this year. Antony said the Arihant would be ready for sea trials later this year.

Naval officials indicate it could be commissioned in another year. Two more SSBNs, the second of which is to be called the Aridaman, are being built here.

 

[Ignited Mind]

What use are such subs when we don't have proper working long ranhe sub-launches ICBM's in place?

They are useless if all we are going to arm them with are 300km range ponies while the big workhorses like K-15 are nowehere near being inducted.

In fact I'm not sure if we have have a long range sub-launched ICBM program in place. I'm talking of ranges>1500km.

 

[RPK]

Media persons were first let in here in July 2009 for the launch of the INS Arihant, the country's first indigenously constructed ballistic missile submarine (SSBN). "In the coming months and years, you will have to come here for many more functions," Antony told media persons. The Arihant began harbor trials this year. Antony said the Arihant would be ready for sea trials later this year.

Just loved it!

 

[Agent_47]

But,how can it be possible? Start from scratch?
The very same Sandeep Unnithan of india tody told me last week that this plan was scraped years before.

 

[IndiaIsrael]

What? only 1.

 

[Varunastra]

the more the better i say!

 

[Hello_10]

What use are such subs when we don't have proper working long ranhe sub-launches ICBM's in place?

They are useless if all we are going to arm them with are 300km range ponies while the big workhorses like K-15 are nowehere near being inducted.

In fact I'm not sure if we have have a long range sub-launched ICBM program in place. I'm talking of ranges>1500km.

I don’t think IN might have paid $1.0bn for leasing it for 10 years without ICBMs also . If it may be loaded with 28 ICBM nuclear missies at one time then I guess IN might have bought at least 28 of them, even if they don’t disclose it due to legal commitments. Like how we heard, India had got too many ICBMs of different range with S-300 also during 90s but they haven’t officially disclosed it. Even Pakistan use M11 missiles with giving it a Pakistani name. when it will be required, IN will organize a ‘test’ and declare that they have got a ICBM of range 3000+ for this INS Chakra.

But at the same time, we would also consider that even if range of Brahmos missiles is close to 300km, the chances are close to 100% that it will hit the target, as it won’t be intercepted by any of the current missile interceptors. Hence you are already on the position of a definite hit on the targets in war scenario

 

[Hello_10]

What? only 1.

I read that IN had signed for 2 of them around 3 years before, on many places. So I strongly believe that IN would buy at least 4-5 of them with different upgrades. Scorpion submarines from Project 75 may be delayed for 4-5 years more and stealth submarines from Project 75I wont be inducted before 2020. At the same time we have a running production line of Akula 2, so more IN buy, cheaper it will be for them. I find Russian Navy and Indian Navy will keep buying one of this type with future upgrades every year, until they will have opened a production line of better one then this submarine class. So, we would expect one submarine of this type in IN at the time interval of every 2 years from now, with future upgrades

 

[sexy gun]

^ are you sure ? SSNs can't be bought or sold as per international treaties..

 

[Capt.Popeye]

But,how can it be possible? Start from scratch?
The very same Sandeep Unnithan of india tody told me last week that this plan was scraped years before.

AFAIK that plan did not get scrapped. The original proposal from the Russians was for India to lease 2 Akulas, which were then unfinished hulls. At that time the Russians were going through a cash crunch and did not have funds to complete construction; India inked the deal for one keeping the option open for another. While the Nerpa was being completed and inducted some time passed and events ocurred. One of them was a re-appraisal of Russia's own need for the Akulas coupled with availability of funds within Russia. So they fast-tracked the completion and induction of some of their unfinished projects. The original option is still on the table, but is not tied up to any funding of unfinished projects. If the second option is exercised, it may well be a "hot-transfer". Such an option may get firmed up around the time that INS Arihant prepares for commissioning and will factor in some changing dynamics in the region, notably the change of leadership in Beijing and the consequences thereof. The China factor will work in that regard, the Pakistan factor has no relevance in any way to the nuke boomers in the Indian Navy.

About the opinions expressed about the non-readiness of the SLBMs (e.g.post#2) that is a non-issue at the present time. First Operating Crews have to trained and worked-up to handle these boats. Not single crews, but multiple crews. That takes time, from normal peace-time handling SOPs to Combat Readiness routines. If this training is not internalised, the missiles will be show-pieces. So the development of the SLBMs can proceed in tandem. When they are ready, they will be inducted and operationalised on fully worked up platforms by fully trained crews. The IN has its hands full already, without trying to plunge head-long in to something else new.

 

[lightoftruth]

What use are such subs when we don't have proper working long ranhe sub-launches ICBM's in place?

They are useless if all we are going to arm them with are 300km range ponies while the big workhorses like K-15 are nowehere near being inducted.

In fact I'm not sure if we have have a long range sub-launched ICBM program in place. I'm talking of ranges>1500km.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/109355-india-developing-6000-km-range-agni-6-slbm-mirv.html

 

[Ignited Mind]

http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/109355-india-developing-6000-km-range-agni-6-slbm-mirv.html

It's still under development, right?

Let's assume, given DRDO's past record, it takes further 5 years to become fully inductable.

By that time, you'd have wasted 5 years of your 10 year lease.

...what's the use?

My point is, why can't we time our sub-procurement in such a manner that our subs are read just in time when we start receiving the relevant ICBM's from DRDO.

Why waste the lease period all the while spending money on it?

I don’t think IN might have paid $1.0bn for leasing it for 10 years without ICBMs also . If it may be loaded with 28 ICBM nuclear missies at one time then I guess IN might have bought at least 28 of them, even if they don’t disclose it due to legal commitments. Like how we heard, India had got too many ICBMs of different range with S-300 also during 90s but they haven’t officially disclosed it. Even Pakistan use M11 missiles with giving it a Pakistani name. when it will be required, IN will organize a ‘test’ and declare that they have got a ICBM of range 3000+ for this INS Chakra.

But at the same time, we would also consider that even if range of Brahmos missiles is close to 300km, the chances are close to 100% that it will hit the target, as it won’t be intercepted by any of the current missile interceptors. Hence you are already on the position of a definite hit on the targets in war scenario

Well, we obviously can't debate over stuff that's not in the public realm. All we can do is hope that whatever we do not know of is only working in our favour at the end of the day.

 

[punjabimunda32]

It's still under development, right?

Let's assume, given DRDO's past record, it takes further 5 years to become fully inductable.

By that time, you'd have wasted 5 years of your 10 year lease.

...what's the use?

My point is, why can't we time our sub-procurement in such a manner that our subs are read just in time when we start receiving the relevant ICBM's from DRDO.

Why waste the lease period all the while spending money on it?

k 15 is going to be testd again this year



Well, we obviously can't debate over stuff that's not in the public realm. All we can do is hope that whatever we do not know of is only working in our favour at the end of the day.

k15 is awaiting one more test. the missile has been approoved and is now under serial production. it will be inducted nxt year. while gas booster of k4 has already been tested and k5 is under development. everything is going fine

 

[Capt.Popeye]

It's still under development, right?

Let's assume, given DRDO's past record, it takes further 5 years to become fully inductable.

By that time, you'd have wasted 5 years of your 10 year lease.

...what's the use?

My point is, why can't we time our sub-procurement in such a manner that our subs are read just in time when we start receiving the relevant ICBM's from DRDO.

Why waste the lease period all the while spending money on it?



Well, we obviously can't debate over stuff that's not in the public realm. All we can do is hope that whatever we do not know of is only working in our favour at the end of the day.

What has the lease of INS Chakra got do with the DRDO? Chakra is a SSN not going to launch SLBMs. No connections.

 

[Bobby]

Good good....