India-China Air Force Clash: IAF Pilot Explains Why A Superior J-20 Stealth Jet Will Avoid A Skirmish With Rafales, Su-30MIs

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Erich Hartmann who is the world’s most celebrated fighter ace had a great point - it is that first shock and awe that wins you a fight and then the enemy crumbles - superior or inferior becomes less relevant . Whether it was the Styx SSM coming out of nowhere to sink Pakistan Navy ships, An Amraam hitting or even just shell shocking a Su-30MKI and the Mirages seeing 10+ fighters in front of them, or a hypothetical strike by a combination of land and air launched Brahmos crippling a Chinese command center in Aksai.

This example makes it seem that war is a struggle of momentum. Whoever catches momentum first has the advantage, but the struggle becomes one of sustaining it. One can argue that the PAF had the momentum in 1965, but as the days went on, the momentum gradually waned. So, the question is, how do you sustain momentum? Is it a combination of supply chain control, training, discipline, funding, fuel, and relentlessness?

 

[Han-Tang]

And if this j20 of theirs was really superior they wouldn't be buying su35s from Russia. This clearly shows that Chinese Jian is junk.

by your logic, every weapon made in India is junk，because you buy everything.

 

[Caprxl]

the simulation makes not losing a PAF asset or two in the air situation that day near impossible

Just a thought, had the simulation become reality, would it had gone for tit for tat?

1) Would PAF call it a day/victory of bombing IA & losing an aircraft or two in the process?
2) Or a Mig-21 & MKI kill would be considered enough against losing a pair of Mirage or thunder or a combo?

(Then again it is known that Vipers & Thunders were circling in the skies just across on our side of LOC to jump in if things did not go in our favour)

Personally I think not & those more than half a dozen targets locked by PAF would have been engaged to settle the score.

Which again would have brought the ball back to Indians whether they backed down or wanted to escalate (for which obviously PAF/State of Pakistan would have been prepared already).

Need your thoughts/opinions,

Regards,

 

[SQ8]

This example makes it seem that war is a struggle of momentum. Whoever catches momentum first has the advantage, but the struggle becomes one of sustaining it. One can argue that the PAF had the momentum in 1965, but as the days went on, the momentum gradually waned. So, the question is, how do you sustain momentum? Is it a combination of supply chain control, training, discipline, funding, fuel, and relentlessness?

First and foremost - you don’t pick the battle you cannot win yourself. Hitler should have never opened the eastern front or should have tackled it first.

But in the PAF case in 65, it did not really get momentum - 60% of its initial strikes were botched or ineffective or compromised by dithering mid level leadership or a disoriented senior commander in Nur Khan who in fairness was just thrust into the situation after returning to the PAF from a completely commercial role and disconnected from warfare.
Had those strikes really materialized as expected, the IAF would never have left the ground on the 7th - it was that good a plan and that hapless an enemy.

Then, knowing the spares and fuel conditions - the mid-level yes men continued to make decision mistakes while the national leadership started failing.

So, it really isn’t a good example of shock and awe - although it is in the sense from Sarfaraz Rafiqui’s dispatching of nearly an entire IAF vampire flight right over their troops that effectively had the IAF think them absolutely useless and grounded them and the Ourogans completely. There are other stories reported by Indian authors themselves that mirror the hilarity of 27th February and highlight the same anger and helplessness that the true professionals if that IAF felt seeing blithering idiots lead them.

 

[thinkingcap81]

There are other stories reported by Indian authors themselves that mirror the hilarity of 27th February and highlight the same anger and helplessness that the true professionals if that IAF felt seeing blithering idiots lead them.

I haven't found them although @Dustom999 seems to make some types of Indian members here unhappy. The stories you are referring to need to be fished out since pro-BJP articles are given high prominence by the BJP IT Cell. Any leads to find the stories?

As for the martial race thing, it also shows how outdated Indian understanding of today’s Pakistani military mindset is. @PanzerKiel

Well, i did write in my post that Are there still takers for the martial race theory?. So i made a provision to escape from stating that Pak Army still has the martial race fantasy at the higher levels. However, i expect that the superiority thingy is a problem for both our armed forces.

 

[Jobless Jack]

indians and thier BOL BACHAN no one can beat an indian in talking

If wars could be won with tongue play, Indians would be the masters of the world.

Indians have made tongue play an art.

 

[antonius123]

Learn about lenseburg first.

Superior j20? Wtf would that even mean? Our radars in Ladakh have picked them up many times. It's not even stealth.

 

[retaxis]

It doesn’t matter about what the actual enemy is, you train assuming they are equal or better.
You assume the Chinese are as competent or better than your pilots and will outnumber you in most straight fights - so what tactics and assymetric strategies does the IAF apply to make this superior enemy fight on its terms.

Erich Hartmann who is the world’s most celebrated fighter ace had a great point - it is that first shock and awe that wins you a fight and then the enemy crumbles - superior or inferior becomes less relevant . Whether it was the Styx SSM coming out of nowhere to sink Pakistan Navy ships, An Amraam hitting or even just shell shocking a Su-30MKI and the Mirages seeing 10+ fighters in front of them, or a hypothetical strike by a combination of land and air launched Brahmos crippling a Chinese command center in Aksai.

As for the martial race thing, it also shows how outdated Indian understanding of today’s Pakistani military mindset is. @PanzerKiel

How did 'poor' soldiers steam roll America in North Korea and whoop Indians a22 in 62? What does that say about Indian soldiers lol.

 

[SQ8]

I haven't found them although @Dustom999 seems to make some types of Indian members here unhappy. The stories you are referring to need to be fished out since pro-BJP articles are given high prominence by the BJP IT Cell. Any leads to find the stories?

Well, i did write in my post that Are there still takers for the martial race theory?. So i made a provision to escape from stating that Pak Army still has the martial race fantasy at the higher levels. However, i expect that the superiority thingy is a problem for both our armed forces.

Start always with the earliest accounts on most things - but as far as the 65 war goes there are plenty of accounts including those by pushpindar singh and other IAF service members that describe indecision and chaos on the ground.

How did 'poor' soldiers steam roll America in North Korea and whoop Indians a22 in 62? What does that say about Indian soldiers lol.

I think the poor soldier is in itself a misnomer - how is a soldier/pilot/sailor poor? The things that really factor into it Training/Skill - Discipline - Leadership - Morale all then make a “poor soldier” . For e.g one assumes the 东方神剑 unit is going to be the best of the best and then the general conscript population is going to be the lowest tier. Which means that the best has generally the highest morale as well.

However, if you thrust in the best unit after it has taken losses and is fatigued and then compare their morale to the conscripts from a fresh unit then the conscripts may fight more eagerly due to higher morale.

In Korea the Chinese were a fresh force into the country whereas the US forces had fought a long and hard push with high battle weariness from the counter offensive leading to the Yalu river.

The Chinese forces who were fresh and outnumbered the Americans had the advantage and comparison of troop quality suggests it wasn’t that different in the 1950s compared to what it may(or may not) be now.

So - poor soldier is a bad term as is martial race(and very British concept) , otherwise the tall/fair/healthy “Muslim warriors” martial races of Pakistanis in Bangladesh in 71 while putting up a spirited fight wouldn’t have some of their key strongholds undone by other diminutive Nepali Gorkhas.

 

[thinkingcap81]

Start always with the earliest accounts on most things - but as far as the 65 war goes there are plenty of accounts including those by pushpindar singh and other IAF service members that describe indecision and chaos on the ground.

I was referring to the events of 26-27 Feb 2019. That's why i mentioned to the BJP IT cell which promotes one type of narrative. On the Pakistani side we have prominence given to another narrative. Guess we'll have to wait for a good book to be written on this, a few decades from now.

 

[SQ8]

I was referring to the events of 26-27 Feb 2019. That's why i mentioned to the BJP IT cell which promotes one type of narrative. On the Pakistani side we have prominence given to another narrative. Guess we'll have to wait for a good book to be written on this, a few decades from now.

I would think Acdre Kaiser still tried to be fair in his narrative - the real aspect is where the sources originate from. The best ones will always be in service and those active on that day - those people are(and will likely be) sworn to keep operational details a secret unless advised to talk on it. The most they will do , even for classfellows or relatives like myself will utter “we brought down the su-30 and mig” or “JF-17 jammed radars as well” - but I am not a reliable source and the same on the opposite sides rings true as well.

So unless one actually sees servicemen writing about it outside of a politically charged atmosphere - it really is upto an individual to discern based on whatever facts they know about both forces.

 

[jk007]

This example makes it seem that war is a struggle of momentum. Whoever catches momentum first has the advantage, but the struggle becomes one of sustaining it. One can argue that the PAF had the momentum in 1965, but as the days went on, the momentum gradually waned. So, the question is, how do you sustain momentum? Is it a combination of supply chain control, training, discipline, funding, fuel, and relentlessness?

War is a wastage of resources (weapons / soldiers / time).....whoever has more of these to waste will win........agree?