India-China Air Force Clash: IAF Pilot Explains Why A Superior J-20 Stealth Jet Will Avoid A Skirmish With Rafales, Su-30MIs

[SQ8]

Yes i know brother but i asked to the Indian member in a different way, he assumed that China bought Su-35 because of bad performance of J-20

They bought the Su-35 to see what improvements the Russians made to the baseline flanker and also keep the Russians engaged as a supplier.

 

[dbc]

So what is wrong in MKI dodging missiles that are fired at it?? You expect to fly straight into them??

Does US / pak SOP ask pilots to fly straight into missiles rather than dodge them?

Multiple times I asked what would you have done different on feb-29. All of those questions met with silence. Maybe, you are a low-level in US armed forces, and don't have answers.

Novices (like me) in this forum expect too much from (who we think are) knowledgeable people like you.

I guess you are a pak origin US national, masquerading as american patriot.

But then I am expecting too much from people who frequent pdf. Sorry for wrong expectations.

Maybe, people who has real knowledge are not in this forum.....stupid me....

Nothing wrong with dodging missiles but it is unusual to commemorate an accomplishment that wasn't really accomplished. i.e. AMRAAM' s weren't successfully dodged. If AMRAAM's were dodged then there would be no 'fantastic tea' would there? Nor would the mighty MKI's flee the battle and allow the PAF to bomb an Indian base unmolested- would it?

 

[siegecrossbow]

I suspect that they purchased those to prop-up the Russians and buy friendship to boot (a kinda bribe)

I think the purpose might’ve been more nefarious. Originally China wanted 4 of them but got a hard no from Russia. The process dragged out for half a decade until they finally settled on 24 fighters. Apparently Russia builtin failsafes that prevented the engines from getting tampered. Go figure why.

Either case the claim that China purchased the Su-35 because J-20 and other domestic fighters are junk doesn’t standup under scrutiny. Since 2016, China has inducted around 160 J-16s and around the same number of J-10B/C variants. It also purchased at least 24 J-20s, with a bare bone minimum of 10 stationed in frontline airports at Wuhu and then QuzhoU, where threats from US, Japanese, and Taiwanese aircraft are very real. Since 2020, they’ve also mass produced them with domestic engines and they have already been spotted in Anshan, an airport facing the Korean Peninsula.

In case people think that China is buying junk fighters as a form of cheap propaganda, keep in mind that China doesn’t shy from purchasing foreign weapons. As recently as last year China has purchased S-400 and transport helos from Russia (several hundred helicopters). But some how they drag their feet with further Su-35 purchases. Really makes you think doesn’t it?

 

[doorstar]

Which makes me think that it truly was the incompetence of Indian warfighters and their leadership that let the PAF pull off what they did that day.

was Maj. (retd) Pravin Sahney incorrect in stating that indians were blinded as well as deafened by Chinese and Pakistani interoperability and cooperation on that day (when the "humble" Thunder went thru its baptism of fire).

Incompetence that can be rectified by changing leadership to competent ones and training

theft of maintenance budget is even more lethal than the incompetence. anyhoo where do they get the competence? import it? or send indians to the US for many years to train out the indian-ness outa them? they are too afraid to send any indian overseas for long term training for fear of loosing some to the host country

I think the purpose might’ve been more nefarious.

you could say that but I couldn't possibly comment for fear of giving bharati PDFers a chance to jump up and down screaming reverse this reverse that. despicable cretins.

 

[dbc]

Interestingly, on a serious note if one tries to replay the 2/27/2019 scenario in something like Command MANO(widely respected as a highly accurate wargaming platform) https://www.warfaresims.com/?p=3885
the simulation makes not losing a PAF asset or two in the air situation that day near impossible. Which makes me think that it truly was the incompetence of Indian warfighters and their leadership that let the PAF pull off what they did that day.

Incompetence that can be rectified by changing leadership to competent ones and training - the result will be a much more costly impact to Pakistan or China than ANY Rafale or F-35z

I don't think a change in leadership will fix the IAF.

 

[siegecrossbow]

was Maj. (retd) Pravin Sahney incorrect in stating that indians were blinded as well as deafened by Chinese and Pakistani interoperability and cooperation on that day (when the "humble" Thunder went thru its baptism of fire).


theft of maintenance budget is even more lethal than the incompetence. anyhoo where do they get the competence? import it? or send indians to the US for many years to train out the indian-ness outa them? they are too afraid to send any indian overseas for long term training for fear of loosing some to the host country

you could say that but I couldn't possibly comment for fear of giving bharati PDFers a chance to jump up and down screaming reverse this reverse that. despicable cretins.

It’s fine. Reverse engineering is part of the process and it’ll be naive to think that China went from building Mig-21s to J-20 in under two decades purely using domestic knowhows. Replication is a part of the learning process.

 

[jk007]

Nothing wrong with dodging missiles but it is unusual to commemorate an accomplishment that wasn't really accomplished. i.e. AMRAAM' s weren't successfully dodged. If AMRAAM's were dodged then there would be no 'fantastic tea' would there? Nor would the mighty MKI's flee the battle and allow the PAF to bomb an Indian base unmolested- would it?

You are biased against India, and will see it different.....and you are ok.

I know India more than you do (I lived there half my life). Despite all of India's shot comings, I believe the following:
a) no MKI is shot down on that day (it is impossible to hide a fallen aircraft in india). India is very open society, with most of liberal media looking something to beat Modi in an election year. Liberal media would have had a field day with a fallen aircraft.
b) one pak aircraft is down on that day (not sure how much abhinandan contributed to it).
c) India does not give away unearned medals to it's pilots. Abhinandan was in that theater when pak aircraft went down. Hence, he is given the award.
d) we don't feel any shame on abhinandan being shot down. He is courageous, done his duty and my hero (he is from my neighboring state which makes me even prouder).

Pak people will believe their narrative, which is also ok and no need to have another long discussion on beaten points.

This is not an intention to troll. Pak members - I know and respect your arguments. So, leave it at that.

 

[doorstar]

India does not give away unearned medals

 

[White and Green with M/S]

You are biased against India, and will see it different.....and you are ok.

I know India more than you do (I lived there half my life). Despite all of India's shot comings, I believe the following:
a) no MKI is shot down on that day (it is impossible to hide a fallen aircraft in india). India is very open society, with most of liberal media looking something to beat Modi in an election year. Liberal media would have had a field day with a fallen aircraft.
b) one pak aircraft is down on that day (not sure how much abhinandan contributed to it).
c) India does not give away unearned medals to it's pilots. Abhinandan was in that theater when pak aircraft went down. Hence, he is given the award.
d) we don't feel any shame on abhinandan being shot down. He is courageous, done his duty and my hero (he is from my neighboring state which makes me even prouder).

Pak people will believe their narrative, which is also ok and no need to have another long discussion on beaten points.

This is not an intention to troll. Pak members - I know and respect your arguments. So, leave it at that.

LOL again conspiracy theory, If your MKI had been not shot down han why you show AMRAAM debris to the world which clearly showed a proximity fuse detonation signs and you have no Proves that you had been shot down F-16 Pentagon denied it, Lockheed Martin personals in Pakistan count all F-16 accounted for no one lost in this battle lol

 

[SQ8]

was Maj. (retd) Pravin Sahney incorrect in stating that indians were blinded as well as deafened by Chinese and Pakistani interoperability and cooperation on that day (when the "humble" Thunder went thru its baptism of fire).


theft of maintenance budget is even more lethal than the incompetence. anyhoo where do they get the competence? import it? or send indians to the US for many years to train out the indian-ness outa them? they are too afraid to send any indian overseas for long term training for fear of loosing some to the host country

you could say that but I couldn't possibly comment for fear of giving bharati PDFers a chance to jump up and down screaming reverse this reverse that. despicable cretins.

There was no cooperation involved that day(or needed) - The Thunder’s combat sortie against its intended peer enemy went better than expected but the only interoperability benefit was within PAF and Link-17 really proved its worth.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

Shamelessness had devastated India much earlier than COVID....

 

[jk007]

@SQ8 - I read in another forum (from a knowledgeable Indian member) that IAFs SOP did not allow / allowed limited engagement / allowed engagement at some distance or something like that (he says SOPs have since been changed).

Would you think those SOPs have something to do with the results on that day when 24 or so PAF aircrafts showed up?

 

[White and Green with M/S]

@SQ8 - I read in another forum (from a knowledgeable Indian member) that IAFs SOP did not allow / allowed limited engagement / allowed engagement at some distance or something like that (he says SOPs have since been changed).

Would you think those SOPs have something to do with the results on that day when 24 or so PAF aircrafts showed up?

Why you believe our F-16 were shot down you had a BVR disadvantages against PAF your claims comes after 3 months from the incident all AAMs were found at wreck site of MIG-21, so tell how can abhi able to engage our F-16 without any missile firing, and why our F-16 allowed Abhi to came close to F-16 kill F-16 when we had BVR advantages over you

Your govt always telling you lies and often pretends fake war trophies and Awards to its pilots lol

 

[SQ8]

@SQ8 - I read in another forum (from a knowledgeable Indian member) that IAFs SOP did not allow / allowed limited engagement / allowed engagement at some distance or something like that (he says SOPs have since been changed).

Would you think those SOPs have something to do with the results on that day when 24 or so PAF aircrafts showed up?

Thats idiotic of either the member or the IAF - take your pick. Why would you have restrictive SOPs the DAY after you attacked? Are we to assume that the IAF from top to bottom are complete goofballs who can’t understand the basic paradigm of expecting retaliation after the attack. The member is clearly either not informed or like all toeing the Bhakt line lying to fellow Indians and keeping the delusion going.

There was abject failure at all levels of IAF leadership from the chief down to the sector air defense commander who made the decision to shoot down the Mi-17 leading to the fratricide. It all points to poor training and expectations from these battlefield leaders who I assume are all “yes men” appointments with the true fighter leaders all sidelined for making noise against such complacency or leaving the IAF for greener pastures.

Again, I reiterate for the consumption of all Indian members and IAF fans - there are extremely experienced, knowledge and natural leaders and warfighters within the IAF who can and do perform. But it is also a side effect of political interference in military merit that the current Indian government has initiated that a large percentage of these will be sidelined simply because of speaking up.

27th February also exposed massive chinks in the Indian Air Defense armor that indicate a lot of expensive toys that don’t work well either in the actual environment and each other or the methods to make them work well were not tested in a battle environment.
I had a feeling many years ago that the IAF would come away with a bloody nose from the PAF not because of a majority of its pilots but because of the very way it was training its squadron leadership. Many Indians under the purported slight of ego went ballistic at the red flag video of the USAF colonel who plainly pointed out how they set up win-win scenarios for themselves during exercises with the USAF but performed poorly in an environment with a different and more equal scenario.

When you train thinking victory is easy with superior equipment and your enemy is beneath you - like many Indians do, you get 26th(botched strike) and 27th( military embarrassment). When you train to fight outgunned,outnumbered and assume your enemy is superior - you get what the PAF did and what the IDFAF did and continues to do.

The IAF is well placed to change its attitudes from this cultural misappropriation of superiority masking inferiority and focus on every man a tiger philosophy. Only then will it truly be the force to reckon with and dominate not just its western border but also its northern one.

As a reference, they can look to the period from December 65 to December 71 as an example of how to change mindsets and train as an effective fighting force.

 

[Sinnerman108]

Be is Rafales or the Sukhois.

Which credible air force have they faced ?