India caste council blamed for five suicides

[kugga]

It is amazingly amusing to see your doctorate level of understanding of Hinduism. Please do name the sects of Hinduism. Enlighten me.

SO tell me what is brahma, khatria, vishnu and shooder aren't hose castes.....

 

[kugga]

Muslims never fought against each other?! Do you really from Pakistan? No one is clean. Its the reality.

I never said that muslims never fought they fought but hindus, chritians, jews all fought with each other and are still fighting in some way or other christians now are not fighting coz maximum of them don't believe in religion.... hindus are following the footsteps of chritians.... there remains only two communities for whom religion is Important Muslims and jews...... But you cannot label any fight fought by a muslim as Islamic fight..... if a muslim rapes then he's lableled as muslim rapist but when a hindu rapes or a christian rapes he's never labeled as a hindu rapist or a christian rapist why??

 

[blueoval79]

In an inter-faith debate, most Hindus can easily be put on the defensive with a single word-caste. Any anti-Hindu polemist can be counted on to allege that "the typically Hindu caste system is the most cruel apartheid, imposed by the barbaric white Aryan invaders on the gentle dark-skinned natives." Here's a more balanced and historical account of this controversial institution. Merits of the Caste System

The caste system is often portrayed as the ultimate horror. Inborn inequality is indeed unacceptable to us moderns, but this does not preclude that the system has also had its merits. Caste is perceived as an "exclusion-from," but first of all it is a form of "belonging-to," a natural structure of solidarity. For this reason, Christian and Muslim missionaries found it very difficult to lure Hindus away from their communities. Sometimes castes were collectively converted to Islam, and Pope Gregory XV (1621-23) decreed that the missionaries could tolerate caste distinction among Christian converts; but by and large, caste remained an effective hurdle to the destruction of Hinduism through conversion. That is why the missionaries started attacking the institution of caste and in particular the Brahmin caste. This propaganda has bloomed into a full-fledged anti-Brahminism, the Indian equivalent of anti-Semitism. Every caste had a large measure of autonomy, with its own judiciary, duties and privileges, and often its own temples. Inter-caste affairs were settled at the village council by consensus; even the lowest caste had veto power. This autonomy of intermediate levels of society is the antithesis of the totalitarian society in which the individual stands helpless before the all-powerful state. This decentralized structure of civil society and of the Hindu religious commonwealth has been crucial to the survival of Hinduism under Muslim rule. Whereas Buddhism was swept away as soon as its monasteries were destroyed, Hinduism retreated into its caste structure and weathered the storm. Caste also provided a framework for integrating immigrant communities: Jews, Zoroastrians and Syrian Christians. They were not only tolerated, but assisted in efforts to preserve their distinctive traditions.

 

[kugga]

at least people do not kill people of other casts..
but In middle east countries are formed on the basis of sects (shia, Sunni)
they keep on fighting.... even in india.. where the muslim population is concentrate
tention is increased between them.. they dont know till now how to live with each other.... however they follw the same religion

Brother come to pakistan there are fightings on the basis of sects but still shia sunni are living together and not blaming each other everytime...... but shias are allowed to live in sunni communities and vice versa its not like hinduism where a shooder is not even allowed to live near the houses of brahmaas...... No shia or sunni is "born dirty". Even if we fight we fight on who's right and who's wrong not on the basis of where you were born...

 

[Raghu]

Five men have been sentenced to death and one jailed for life over the 2007 murder of a couple who married against the wishes of village elders.
The court in the northern state of Haryana last week convicted the men of the murders of Manoj and Babli, who were killed a month after they eloped.
Elders said they violated local customs by marrying within the same sub-caste.
Observers say this may be the first time an Indian court has awarded such a penalty over an "honour killing" case.
The young couple were kidnapped while they were travelling on a bus in Haryana in 2007. Their bodies were discovered later.
Those sentenced to death are all relatives of the girl, Babli, and include her brother, two uncles and two cousins, Indian media reports say.
The head of the village council in Haryana's Kaithal district, which ruled against the couple's marriage, was given life imprisonment. A driver found to have helped abduct the couple was given a seven-year prison term.
The village council said that by local tradition people within the same sub-caste are considered to be siblings.
The case was brought by the family of Manoj, Babli's husband. Unconfirmed media reports say that the couple had approached the police with their fears shortly before they were kidnapped and killed.
Campaigners hailed the verdict as a blow against "Honor killings", which are quite common in parts of northern India.
Correspondents say such killings have often not been reported or widely discussed in the past because families usually accept the verdicts.
Those found guilty in the case have the right to appeal. Death sentences in India are rarely handed down and even more rarely carried out

It has nothing to do with caste...

Its a case of honor killing where community member killed a couple for marry in the same "Gotra".

Gotra or clan is something that comes after family unit and everyone having same gotra is related and considered as brothers and sisters .So marriage is in one's own gotra is forbidden in Hindu religion.

In some places of Hariyana where they have khap panchyat (villages) where large number of people belonging to the same gotra lives together ,so marrying same gotra often invite fatal rejection from community members.

PS:its scientifically proven that intermarriage in same gotra carries the ill effect of inbreeding.So ,hey those ancient believes aren't without sound basis.

 

[kugga]

In an inter-faith debate, most Hindus can easily be put on the defensive with a single word-caste. Any anti-Hindu polemist can be counted on to allege that "the typically Hindu caste system is the most cruel apartheid, imposed by the barbaric white Aryan invaders on the gentle dark-skinned natives." Here's a more balanced and historical account of this controversial institution. Merits of the Caste System

The caste system is often portrayed as the ultimate horror. Inborn inequality is indeed unacceptable to us moderns, but this does not preclude that the system has also had its merits. Caste is perceived as an "exclusion-from," but first of all it is a form of "belonging-to," a natural structure of solidarity. For this reason, Christian and Muslim missionaries found it very difficult to lure Hindus away from their communities. Sometimes castes were collectively converted to Islam, and Pope Gregory XV (1621-23) decreed that the missionaries could tolerate caste distinction among Christian converts; but by and large, caste remained an effective hurdle to the destruction of Hinduism through conversion. That is why the missionaries started attacking the institution of caste and in particular the Brahmin caste. This propaganda has bloomed into a full-fledged anti-Brahminism, the Indian equivalent of anti-Semitism. Every caste had a large measure of autonomy, with its own judiciary, duties and privileges, and often its own temples. Inter-caste affairs were settled at the village council by consensus; even the lowest caste had veto power. This autonomy of intermediate levels of society is the antithesis of the totalitarian society in which the individual stands helpless before the all-powerful state. This decentralized structure of civil society and of the Hindu religious commonwealth has been crucial to the survival of Hinduism under Muslim rule. Whereas Buddhism was swept away as soon as its monasteries were destroyed, Hinduism retreated into its caste structure and weathered the storm. Caste also provided a framework for integrating immigrant communities: Jews, Zoroastrians and Syrian Christians. They were not only tolerated, but assisted in efforts to preserve their distinctive traditions.

O look what I reading..... So you say shoodars have veto power... give me a break.... where practically this is happening in india, obviously no where even muslims are treated like shoodars in remote areas.....Go read you scriptures first they say that a shoodar is made of foot of God (Nauzubillah) and they are made to be dishonoured........ Wow wat a caste system to assisst brahmaas.... why only brahmaas are allowed to have every opurtunity of a good life why not the shoodars??

No matter what ever you say you cannot justify the born dirty concept in hinduism

 

[Raghu]

is hindustan the only country in the world where ''caste-system'' exists?

very medieval and backwards by today's standards, i must say.

The social stratification among Muslims in the "Swat" area of North Pakistan has been meaningfully compared to the Caste system in India. The society is rigidly divided into subgroups where each Quom is assigned a profession. Different Quoms are not permitted to intermarry or live in the same community.[13] These Muslims practice a ritual-based system of social stratification. The Quoms who deal with human emissions are ranked the lowest.[13]

Lower castes are often persecuted by the upper castes. A particularly infamous example of such incidents is that of Mukhtaran Mai in Pakistan, a low caste woman who was gang raped by upper caste men.
Stephen M. Lyon of University of Kent has written about what he calls "Gujarism", the act of Gujjars in Pakistan seeking out other Gujjars to form associations, and consolidate ties with them, based strictly on caste affiliation


source:"Caste system among South Asian Muslims" from wikipidia..

 

[blueoval79]

^^^^

I need no advice form Pakistani about my Religion and Culture...the facts are in front of you......a system got deteriorated ....and thats about it.......but believe what ever you want.

 

[kugga]

The social stratification among Muslims in the "Swat" area of North Pakistan has been meaningfully compared to the Caste system in India. The society is rigidly divided into subgroups where each Quom is assigned a profession. Different Quoms are not permitted to intermarry or live in the same community.[13] These Muslims practice a ritual-based system of social stratification. The Quoms who deal with human emissions are ranked the lowest.[13]

Lower castes are often persecuted by the upper castes. A particularly infamous example of such incidents is that of Mukhtaran Mai in Pakistan, a low caste woman who was gang raped by upper caste men.
Stephen M. Lyon of University of Kent has written about what he calls "Gujarism", the act of Gujjars in Pakistan seeking out other Gujjars to form associations, and consolidate ties with them, based strictly on caste affiliation


source:"Caste system among South Asian Muslims" from wikipidia..

Wow.... what are you comaring its not clear at all. you started from swat and went to mukhtaaran maai from no where.... there is no such thing existing any where in pakistan where a certain Qoum is assigned a certain task any one can do any thing and even if there are such things it has nothing to do with Islam because Islam never promotes caste system it is even against nationalism jsut because you cannot control your birth place....

and the case of mukhtaaran maae is due to fuedalism in pakistan not because of caste system

 

[Raghu]

Brother come to pakistan there are fightings on the basis of sects but still shia sunni are living together and not blaming each other everytime...... but shias are allowed to live in sunni communities and vice versa its not like hinduism where a shooder is not even allowed to live near the houses of brahmaas...... No shia or sunni is "born dirty". Even if we fight we fight on who's right and who's wrong not on the basis of where you were born...

oh ,gosh u talking with so much authority.

Have ever been to todays India???

The Chief minister of most populous state of UP in India is a lady called Mayawate who is "shooder",but her closet confidant is Brahmin lawyer.

One sees so many cases of intercaste marrages these day,even one happened in my own family.

 

[Raghu]

Wow.... what are you comaring its not clear at all. you started from swat and went to mukhtaaran maai from no where.... there is no such thing existing any where in pakistan where a certain Qoum is assigned a certain task any one can do any thing and even if there are such things it has nothing to do with Islam because Islam never promotes caste system it is even against nationalism jsut because you cannot control your birth place....

and the case of mukhtaaran maae is due to fuedalism in pakistan not because of caste system

dont tell me what Islam say...as urself said that Islam against nationalism ,but we see 52 different Muslim countries.

 

[Bushy]

SO tell me what is brahma, khatria, vishnu and shooder aren't hose castes.....

Do you even know the difference between a sect and a caste? First you say Hindu sects, when I ask you tell me about the sects, you immediately change the term to castes. Don't be wavering so much, it undermines the value of your statements.

By the way, the terms you mentioned as castes shows your level of understanding. Do not be debating what you know nothing of. Brahma and Vishnu are two of the trinities. Khatri is a gotra, and not a caste (but perhaps you won't know the difference).

Let me help you with a general outline -

Four major castes are Brahman, Kshatriya, Shudra, Vysya.

Contrary to popular belief, (and even practice in modern era), the caste of a person is not defined by the family one is born in. Rather by the quality of profession/education one goes for.

As per Rig Veda (the oldest of Vedas that found Hinduism), a child, until have taken up a profession, remains free of castes. And the profession taken up later in life defines his/her caste.

A hymn from the Rig Veda clearly indicates that one's caste is not necessarily determined by that of one's family-

Rig Veda 9.112.3
—I am a bard, my father is a physician, my mother's job is to grind the corn.

If even that does not help you, then you should know that neither of the largest worshiped Avatar's of Vishnu (the most revered of the trinity in Hinduism) were uppermost caste.

Ram was a Kshatriya, and Krishna was a Yadu.

Now, with your half baked knowledge, before you go on to loathe others about caste-ism in modern times please do keep in mind that discrimination on the basis of caste in India is not only taboo, but also criminal.

P.S. There is no such thing as a sect in Hinduism. In Islam, oh yes, Ahmadis are there, and we all know what a godly treatment they are given in Pakistan. Refer to the defacement of the grave of Pakistan's first Nobel Laureate.

 

[makikirkiri]

...Go read you scriptures first they say that a shoodar is made of foot of God (Nauzubillah) and they are made to be dishonoured........ Wow wat a caste system to assisst brahmaas.... why only brahmaas are allowed to have every opurtunity of a good life why not the shoodars??

No matter what ever you say you cannot justify the born dirty concept in hinduism

Well , the born dirty concept is a social fabrication which happened over centuries.It's not a dogma given by hindu scripture.
Well true , the scripture mentions that the shudras are born out of gods feet.Hinduism though being called polytheistic and pagan, it clearly states that god is formless , someone who can't be comprehended nor be explained about and also all pervasive and is singular.It is clearly stated in vedas , vedangas and upanishads.Inspite of this why hindus worship dieties is an issue which can be understood only with a good understanding of various hindu spiritual philosophies.
But the thing to note is that acc to scripture one's caste follows only by one's profession and not by one's birth.In hinduism , head represents knowledge, shoulder represents strength , the abdomen represents material requirements and the feet represent something which bears weight.So acc to the profession , a scientist represents knowledge so is deemed to be born out of god's head(brahman). A military man represents strength and therefore is deemed to be born out of god's shoulders(kshatriya). Similarly a businessman is born out of god's abdomen(vysya) and the one doing menial,physical work is born out of god's feet(shudra).Are god's feet any less holy than his shoulder or his head?
Lower caste people being opressed is a matter of social and economic dynamics and not a religious , scriptural one.(Inspite of what the opressed or the opressor claims)

 

[kugga]

P.S. There is no such thing as a sect in Hinduism. In Islam, oh yes, Ahmadis are there, and we all know what a godly treatment they are given in Pakistan. Refer to the defacement of the grave of Pakistan's first Nobel Laureate.

FYI Ahmadis are not Muslims there is clear line drawn between them and muslims....they are considered as a non-muslim minority in pakistan and what india is doing to her minoroties in india is very evident what happened in Gujrat is not a seceret......

BTW Ahmadis are living peacefully in pakistan I have many ahmadi friends and they all agree that ahmadis and Muslims are two totally different entities they cannot be sects of same religion....

they say they are muslims and we say we are muslims now God is to decide who's right or wrong.... again it is a fight of who is right and who's wrong not where you were born like what's going on in India

 

[kugga]

Lower caste people being opressed is a matter of social and economic dynamics and not a religious , scriptural one.(Inspite of what the opressed or the opressor claims)

^^^^^
Look the people who kind of waged a war against pakistanis for not treating minorities well in there country what they say when it comes to themselves....