India can do nothing if there is another Mumbai

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Point is that 'continuous striving' is more cosmetic and India has not even seen a minimal improvement in results on the ground level

I disagree - seven perpetrators and masterminds, including Lakhvi and Zarrar Shah, are awaiting trial, and the LeT stands largely dismantled.

LeT became JuD with the infrastructure and cadre inact.A case of
OLD WINE IN NEW BOTTLES

The JUD 'infrastructure and cadres' that exist still are hospitals, schools, clinics, other social welfare project etc and those that work in them, and many are run by the Punjab government.

Technicality AM ,A Technicality exploited by the GoP establishment

No technicality - IAK is not Indian territory, it is occupied territory, and the right to fight occupation is recognized globally.

P.S: No pakstani government woudl survive after allowing Indian military action on its soil - cooperation with India wil not go that far, no matter what the situation.

 

[IceCold]

anyways this off topic.....

We also have a organization glorified by you and fellow mates RAW. And ISI and Pakistan will be helping us with aids and intelligence dont worry after the latest aid bill.

Of course there will be retaliation from Taliban else why the hell would be India invited to join.

You kicked the soviets because US was behind you or do you expect to fight the USSR of 80s. Heard of its arsenal.

Anyways Afghanistan is of stratergic importance for us.

I have already debunked your aid theory but it seems you are not here to learn but to rant. Aid bill be will be debated over before getting accepted, there may likely be the chance that it gets rejected. Have you ever given that a thought.

 

[ashwin]

I have already debunked your aid theory but it seems you are not here to learn but to rant. Aid bill be will be debated over before getting accepted, there may likely be the chance that it gets rejected. Have you ever given that a thought.

Even Indians also have not finalized yet............ So it will totally depend on the conditions.

My point was based on the bill getting passed......

 

[hembo]

stop making people fool in the name of composite dialogues .The only solution between india and pakistan is war.Destruction will be fate of Indians. InDia

I infer that the "Mods" here also endorses similar sentimets. Other-wise, what else inference can I draw from the fact that this post is still here in spite of my reporting it two days back.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I infer that the "Mods" here also endorses similar sentimets. Other-wise, what else inference can I draw from the fact that this post is still here in spite of my reporting it two days back.

You can infer that I am not checking reported posts - 'on hiatus'. I only pop in to post occasionally, and moderate if something obvious hits me on the threads I post on/read.

In any case - its his opinion. Just because its on the forum does not mean we endorse it.

Using your logic of deleting posts we disagree with, we would have to delete the majority of the posts by Indians!

And please keep moderating issues off the threads please - contact a moderator (or multiple moderators) through PM to express concerns.

 

[hembo]

You can infer that I am not checking reported posts - 'on hiatus'. I only pop in to post occasionally, and moderate if something obvious hits me on the threads I post on/read.

In any case - its his opinion. Just because its on the forum does not mean we endorse it.

Using your logic of deleting posts we disagree with, we would have to delete the majority of the posts by Indians!

And please keep moderating issues off the threads please - contact a moderator (or multiple moderators) through PM to express concerns.

Gotcha. However, even after you going through it now, the post, still glorifying destruction of all Indians and India, perhaps has not been of low enough quality to be moderated, deleted or repriminded.

 

[gubbi]

My God coming this out from a senior member, what can i say. Dude do you even realize what in the hell are you talking about......fragile gargantuan egos haaa really?

You do forget that I am a novice like a lot of others here. I am not a senior member, yet.
Have you ever met any of the diplomats? I wasnt talking about only Indian or Pakistani diplomats! You should see how huge their egos are!

You all the time talk about public pressure in India, how come you forget the same in Pakistan and does not consider its importance and how it can impact GOPs decision making. Do you seriously believe that even if the GOP complies (according to you) the opposition will stay quiet and as for the army, you seriously believe it will take on another embarrassing moment after 71 in its proud history.You better think again because this kind of underestimation about Pakistan can result into a war.

Given the situation Pakistan finds itself in today, I seriously doubt your Govt or Army can really do anything about the public pressure. They do realize that as a country Pakistan might end up losing a lot in the short term as well as in the long term and may be ignored on the world stage for years to come. You have to take into account the present geopolitical scenarios, which I believe the Pak army and govt are doing right now. I do believe if a push comes to shove, the Pak Army will remain silent in under remendous international pressure and for Pakistan's own interests, though they may demand their 'pound of flesh' in shooting down a couple of IAF birds, which the IAF can easily absorb. A full fledged war would be catastrophic to Pakistan, if not to India.
71 wasnt the only loss of face. You do so conviniently forget the '84 Siachen loss and various attempts to recapture Siachen subsequently - one SSG raid was infact planned and executed by Musharaff himself - I believe in '87? You forget kargil? There may be many other instances which are not out in public domain.

Let me tell you some plain hardcore facts India attacks on Pakistan, there will be no hue cry about that nor any noises, only weak makes such noises, you will not hear anything of that sort, what however you will hear is when your bases lit up in fire and from there we can predict what will happens after, a full-fledged war because India wont take on embarrassment either.

I did say there will be belligerent tones on both sides of the border, but behind closed doors, there will be an unprecedented level of co-operation - diplomatic and may be even militarily! Look at the big picture, my friend.

And please don't bring in the nuclear factor every time we talk about India Pakistan conflict, our nuclear threshold isn't that low.

Any skirmish, if any, will not go nuclear. You are right, your nuclear threshold is not that low. There is a reason as to why!
India would be vary about any missile launched by Pakistan during a skirmish - what with your first use policy. Any missile launched by Pakistan will be assumed to be a nuclear strike, even if its a conventional warhead. This will bring in massive Indian nuclear retaliation - a policy to deny a second strike capability. Either Pakistan would have to use a saturated nuclear missile attack first time around or not use its missiles altogether and try to contain a possible conflict to a small area.
Counter me with a logical counterpoint here. I seriously dont see much use of Pakistani missile arsenal in a conflict with India, except if it wants to lob a few nuclear warheads this side of the border. That would also mean world condemnation and severe consequences for Pakistan.
The ball's in your court, as they say.

 

[gubbi]

P.S: No pakstani government woudl survive after allowing Indian military action on its soil - cooperation with India wil not go that far, no matter what the situation.

Pragmatism and realpolitik always wins over rhetorical histrionics!

 

[IceCold]

You do forget that I am a novice like a lot of others here. I am not a senior member, yet.
Have you ever met any of the diplomats? I wasnt talking about only Indian or Pakistani diplomats! You should see how huge their egos are!

Given the situation Pakistan finds itself in today, I seriously doubt your Govt or Army can really do anything about the public pressure. They do realize that as a country Pakistan might end up losing a lot in the short term as well as in the long term and may be ignored on the world stage for years to come. You have to take into account the present geopolitical scenarios, which I believe the Pak army and govt are doing right now. I do believe if a push comes to shove, the Pak Army will remain silent in under remendous international pressure and for Pakistan's own interests, though they may demand their 'pound of flesh' in shooting down a couple of IAF birds, which the IAF can easily absorb. A full fledged war would be catastrophic to Pakistan, if not to India.
71 wasnt the only loss of face. You do so conviniently forget the '84 Siachen loss and various attempts to recapture Siachen subsequently - one SSG raid was infact planned and executed by Musharaff himself - I believe in '87? You forget kargil? There may be many other instances which are not out in public domain.

I did say there will be belligerent tones on both sides of the border, but behind closed doors, there will be an unprecedented level of co-operation - diplomatic and may be even militarily! Look at the big picture, my friend.

Any skirmish, if any, will not go nuclear. You are right, your nuclear threshold is not that low. There is a reason as to why!
India would be vary about any missile launched by Pakistan during a skirmish - what with your first use policy. Any missile launched by Pakistan will be assumed to be a nuclear strike, even if its a conventional warhead. This will bring in massive Indian nuclear retaliation - a policy to deny a second strike capability. Either Pakistan would have to use a saturated nuclear missile attack first time around or not use its missiles altogether and try to contain a possible conflict to a small area.
. I seriously dont see much use of Pakistani missile arsenal in a conflict with India, except if it wants to lob a few nuclear warheads this side of the border. That would also mean world condemnation and severe consequences for Pakistan.
The ball's in your court, as they say.

Thats such a lame argument seriously without any sarcasm intended i dont know where to start from
There is nothing new in your argument that i havent countered in my previous post. keep repating the same old things over and over does not make them right.

Counter me with a logical counterpoint here

Tell me where does logic apply in your post and i will gladly reply with logic. Ever heard of cruise missiles? And for your poor information both India and Pakistan does not have such a pathetic nuclear command and control center where they would mistake a conventional missile strike with a nuclear one and even if we imagine the worst case scenario, the responsibility still lies on India's shoulder to tone down the rhetoric, control its yellow media that spreads nothing short of propaganda and hatred to its misguided war thirsty viewers about Pakistan.

 

[Storm Force]

So do we conclude that India sits helpless at the mercey of terrorists who kill indians in india and blow up 5 star hotels.

I think if india cannot protect its citizens or its hotels it should better spend the $30 billion a year defense budget on its poor

 

[paritosh]

Too bad if this is the kind of thinking that previals into the mindsets of Indians. Does anyone realize the disastrous consequences of it? Pakistan nor its institutions are in any manner responsible nor complicit with any non state actor responsible for an attack on India. It is the duty of India itself to protect its citizens and tighten its security control more over if India did had any information why in the hell did they not share before hand so inorder to prevent the occurence of mumbai incident.
Point being made here is to avenge 100, India is willing to loose God knows maybe 10000 or even more.Think rationally

There is not one point I disagree on...but the fact of the matter is that there would be insurmountable fury if an incident of the scale of Mumbai is to be repeated...and the biggest boon/bane of democracy is that it's the govt of/by the people...the ruling party would fear it's future prospects...i have seen the sorts happening in India...
Let us hope it doesnt come to that..you are right about the 100/1000 thing...but sometimes logic has to give way to mob fury...don't get me wrong I don't support it.

 

[gubbi]

Thats such a lame argument seriously without any sarcasm intended i dont know where to start from
There is nothing new in your argument that i havent countered in my previous post. keep repating the same old things over and over does not make them right.

Of course it will seem lame, but set aside your patriotic feelings and denial of your own weaknesses and think real hard. In today's geopolitics Pakistan is at a crossroads. The direction it chooses will depend on how far sighted its leaders are. Either way, whichever direction your leaders wish to embark upon, rest assured, you will face short term losses. But depending on the direction, one might be a blessing in disguise and the other a curse. I think your leaders know where they are heading.
Its far more complicated than what our simple brains can comprehend. There are teams of thinktanks weighing pros and cons of every available option before deciding on what is acceptable and what is not.

Tell me where does logic apply in your post and i will gladly reply with logic. Ever heard of cruise missiles? And for your poor information both India and Pakistan does not have such a pathetic nuclear command and control center where they would mistake a conventional missile strike with a nuclear one and even if we imagine the worst case scenario, the responsibility still lies on India's shoulder to tone down the rhetoric, control its yellow media that spreads nothing short of propaganda and hatred to its misguided war thirsty viewers about Pakistan.

You cannot tell whether an incoming missile, cruise or not, is carrying a nuclear warhead or a conventional one. No one can. Neither can US nor Russia nor EU nor China. The whole cold-war was based on second and third strike, triad etc capability. Didnt you ever wonder why?
If India knew what your missile's warhead was carrying then apparently Indian forces know the location from where it would be launched and by extrapolation they already know the location of all your nuclear tipped missiles. Neither is Pakistan going to warn India that its launching a nuclear missile or a conventional one. Makes sense?
In such a case are we going to wait for you to launch a nuclear tipped missile? Or would there be a pre-emptive strike to take out those batteries/silos?
So my assumption still stands. Any missile launched by Pakistan will be treated as a nuclear attack drawing a "massive" Indian retaliation. Period. This is the line of thought in defense circles these days. Like I said, Pakistan's missile arsenal is presently worthless vis-a-vis India, unless you want to start a nuclear war. In that case again, Pakistan is the one to face the heat and not India. Any senior members with experience can refute this?
Gotta think real hard my friend. Countries and their policies don't practically run on emotions.

ps: theres yellow journalism, there journalism masquerading as serious work and then theres serious journalism itself. Inbetween theres satire and serious work cloaked as a joke. It up to ones capability as to filter out the riff-raff from the serious stuff. Ever read serious articles from Indian journos? Why not post those?

 

[Spitfighter]

Why are we only considering a military scenario? There are many ways in which India can seriously destabilize Pakistan. We can choke them economically, we could rally world support and impose crushing sanctions. India has already come close to having Pakistan declared a state sponsor of terror.

Even if India doesn't attack, the repercussions for Pakistan will be grave. If anything, India could take some symbolic military action to ratchet up the pressure on Pakistan and the world community. I doubt the conflict would escalate, Pakistan can't afford another war right now.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Pragmatism and realpolitik always wins over rhetorical histrionics!

Oh, so you mean there actually is a chance that the Indian government could resolve the Kashmir dispute by allowing the people of Kashmir to vote in a plebiscite to determine their destiny?

Because typically all we hear from Indians against the idea of any such move, in any of the various configurations suggested, is 'rhetorical histrionics', and how the GoI, any GoI, will never agree to such because of those 'rhetorical histrionics'.

 

[gubbi]

Oh, so you mean there actually is a chance that the Indian government could resolve the Kashmir dispute by allowing the people of Kashmir to vote in a plebiscite to determine their destiny?

Because typically all we hear from Indians against the idea of any such move, in any of the various configurations suggested, is 'rhetorical histrionics', and how the GoI, any GoI, will never agree to such because of those 'rhetorical histrionics'.

AM, India does not consider Kashmir a disputed territory, even if UN does. It is an integrated state of India with considerably more powers to the State legislature than other Indian states. It is not going to be resolved, that a big if, anytime soon.
I was talking about Indo-Pak interaction at the Govt/Military level, if - God forbid - another Mumbai style terrorist attack occurs on Indian soil, wth its origins traced to Pak soil.
No matter how you want to look at it, given the present scenario and each one's standing in the international community, Pakistan stands to loose a lot, Kashmir will be pushed back and talks will center around CBMs and trade. India is NOT giving up Kashmir anytime soon. Too risky from Indian pov.