India behind Pakistan on AWACS front, as delays plague projects

[#hydra#]

NEW DELHI: Already way behind China, India is struggling to even keep up with Pakistan in the critical arena of AWACS (airborne warning and control systems) aircraft that can detect incoming fighters, cruise missiles and drones much before ground-based radars as well as direct fighters in combat operations.

AWACS or 'Eyes in the Sky' are considered "major force-multipliers" in modern-day warfare due to their capability to provide early warning about hostile threats at ranges over 400km in all-weather conditions, as also act as autonomous command and control centres. India is yet to fully get its act together on this front.

For one, the new indigenous Rs 5,113 crore AWACS-India project is still languishing "largely on the drawing board", sources said. For another, the Rs 2,520 crore AEW&C (airborne early-warning and control system) project for 'miniAWACS' is still months away from completion after repeatedly missing deadlines since being approved in 2004.

IAF currently has just three Phalcon AWACS, with Israeli early-warning radars mounted in domes on top of IL-76 aircraft, which were acquired under the Rs 5,042 crore tripartite deal among India, Israel and Russia in 2004. The Phalcons do pack quite a punch, with 360-degree coverage over a 400km range. But while the long-pending $1 billion deal for two more Phalcons is yet to be inked, audit watchdog CAG has blasted the "sub-optimal utilisation" of the three existing ones due to poor planning and serviceability.

In contrast, China has over 20 AWACS, including the new KJ-500 ones that can track over 60 aircraft at ranges up to 470km. Pakistan has four Swedish Saab-2000 AEW&C aircraft and four Chinese-origin ZDK-03 (KJ-200) AWACS.

India's indigenous efforts to plug the operational gaps have been dogged by delays. DRDO officials said the three AEW&C aircraft, with 240-degree coverage radars fitted on three smaller Brazilian Embraer-145 jets, are now undergoing final trials. "There were delays due to several factors, including a 27-month one since IAF wanted additional operational requirements," said an official.

The bigger worry is the AWACS-India project, which will involve mounting 360 degree coverage AESA (active electronically scanned array) radars on two Airbus A-330 wide-body jets. "It will take 5-7 years to build the first two AWACS," said an official.

http://m.timesofindia.com/india/Ind...lays-plague-projects/articleshow/53371140.cms

 

[Kinetic]

import lobby at its best!

This is the only notable thing, rests are bull$hit. Can IAF do the same for foreign maals? India has three Phalcons, 2 more ordered. Three DRDO AEW are ready for induction. Total we will have eight AWACS in next two years.

"There were delays due to several factors, including a 27-month one since IAF wanted additional operational requirements,"

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/india-be...-delays-plague-projects.440941/#ixzz4FOmWsfMc

 

[punit]

import lobby at its best!

This is the only notable thing, rests are bull$hit. Can IAF do the same for foreign maals? India has three Phalcons, 2 more ordered. Three DRDO AEW are ready for induction. Total we will have eight AWACS in next two years.

"There were delays due to several factors, including a 27-month one since IAF wanted additional operational requirements,"

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/india-be...-delays-plague-projects.440941/#ixzz4FOmWsfMc

how about IAF version of the story? .. its difficult to take statement by DRDO at its face value.

 

[Kinetic]

how about IAF version of the story? .. its difficult to take statement by DRDO at its face value.

There will be always two different story but ne thing will be in common, "If wanted changes". The same IAF is ready to except foreign weapons without any changes.

 

[punit]

There will be always two different story but ne thing will be in common, "If wanted changes". The same IAF is ready to except foreign weapons without any changes.

but DRDO is quick with excuses and can blare it out in front of Gullible Media but IAF do not have this luxury.
Now the demand for changes can be genuine or may be not. But since there is not plan to buy DRDO type AWACS from outside and u cant compare Phalcon Awacs with DRDO ones .. we may conclude that demand may be genuine.

 

[Indian009]

If I am not wrong 3 of Saab Pak AWACS are destroyed @Oscar Can you tell us how many are in service.

 

[Agent_47]

but DRDO is quick with excuses and can blare it out in front of Gullible Media but IAF do not have this luxury.
Now the demand for changes can be genuine or may be not. But since there is not plan to buy DRDO type AWACS from outside and u cant compare Phalcon Awacs with DRDO ones .. we may conclude that demand may be genuine.

They are not ready to go for anything less than world class, which requires huge amount of funds. Spending that kind of money to import things in large numbers is stupidity.

If demand is genuine, order 6-7 AEW&CS now and wait for DRDO AWACS to mature by 2021-22.

 

[punit]

They are not ready to go for anything less than world class, which requires huge amount of funds. Spending that kind of money to import things in large numbers is stupidity.

If demand is genuine, order 6-7 AEW&CS now and wait for DRDO AWACS to mature by 2021-22.

so what is your suggestion .. IAF should go for sub optimal products ? And then there is big IF going by the track records of DRDO .

 

[#hydra#]

import lobby at its best!

This is the only notable thing, rests are bull$hit. Can IAF do the same for foreign maals? India has three Phalcons, 2 more ordered. Three DRDO AEW are ready for induction. Total we will have eight AWACS in next two years.

"There were delays due to several factors, including a 27-month one since IAF wanted additional operational requirements,"

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/india-be...-delays-plague-projects.440941/#ixzz4FOmWsfMc

Mate we lacks considerably in AWACS areas when compares to our rivals. Phalcon may be more capable than Chinese & Swedish equivalents,but numbers does have its own importance. Mere 3+2 phalcon is not adequate for national security.

 

[Agent_47]

so what is your suggestion .. IAF should go for sub optimal products ? And then there is big IF going by the track records of DRDO .

For 2 Phalcons we are spending around Rs 5,500 cr. IAF says they want 15, that means Rs 82,500 cr (without inflation). $13+ billion is a huge number, that means there should be a home grown solution. (like every strategic weapons).

Btw, How is DRDO AEW&C sub optimal ?

 

[GuardianRED]

Another BS Article from Rajat Pandit, "including a 27-month one since IAF wanted additional operational requirements," said an official."

1) This is an old info.... Induction of the 1st Embraer is stated for this Year , with the 2 second in testing and Final aircraft to be delivered to India end of the year

2) Love this word every one uses - its either "Official" or "sources" Q: has anyone verified this ?

 

[Genesis]

For 2 Phalcons we are spending around Rs 5,500 cr. IAF says they want 15, that means Rs 82,500 cr (without inflation). $13+ billion is a huge number, that means there should be a home grown solution. (like every strategic weapons).

Btw, How is DRDO AEW&C sub optimal ?

The plane is small, thus less equipment, the plane has less endurance than a Y-9. The bar configuration means no 360 coverage, and I have to assume other drawbacks.

China started with the bar configuration, due to the difficulties of the larger dome variant. Now it has moved on to full dome variant with KJ-500.


Home grown solutions for this is very difficult, it's not just the radar, though that too. You need a platform to carry it as well. I guess you can buy it, but these things are expensive to buy and maintain. It's also difficult to design without the ability to alter certain aspects of the plane.

This is one of the main reasons, China for so long, lacked these planes. No home grown platform. Any induction of home grown ones takes decades. Repeated delays even for Boeing.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

I posted the second embraer update here in January 2016
https://defence.pk/threads/update-i...-at-bangalore-with-flightradar24-data.415964/

I said there

One such bird is inducted in late June 2015. This is the second bird which was suppose to be handed over in Sep-Oct 2015 for User Trials. So i think this is the second bird doing User Evaluation Trials and will be inducted soon..
The third bird is expected for user trials around June-July 2016.

https://defence.pk/threads/update-i...-with-flightradar24-data.415964/#post-8044175

This article seems to have a different intention.

I guess people really don't get enough of bashing indigenous projects and DRDO..

May be ask Rajat pandit what solution he sees to this issue he mentioned.. may be name the platform also he wishes to support..

 

[Agent_47]

The plane is small, thus less equipment, the plane has less endurance than a Y-9. The bar configuration means no 360 coverage, and I have to assume other drawbacks.

China started with the bar configuration, due to the difficulties of the larger dome variant. Now it has moved on to full dome variant with KJ-500.

IAF knew these drawbacks from the start itself, they choose the platform and freezes the requirements.
Saab Erieye too have all these problems still 7+ nations operates it including pakistan.

Home grown solutions for this is very difficult, it's not just the radar, though that too. You need a platform to carry it as well. I guess you can buy it, but these things are expensive to buy and maintain. It's also difficult to design without the ability to alter certain aspects of the plane.

This is one of the main reasons, China for so long, lacked these planes. No home grown platform. Any induction of home grown ones takes decades. Repeated delays even for Boeing.

DRDO AWACS will be based on Airbus A330, they will modify the plane according to our needs.

Patient and difficult path is always worth in the long run.

 

[#hydra#]

The plane is small, thus less equipment, the plane has less endurance than a Y-9. The bar configuration means no 360 coverage, and I have to assume other drawbacks.

China started with the bar configuration, due to the difficulties of the larger dome variant. Now it has moved on to full dome variant with KJ-500.


Home grown solutions for this is very difficult, it's not just the radar, though that too. You need a platform to carry it as well. I guess you can buy it, but these things are expensive to buy and maintain. It's also difficult to design without the ability to alter certain aspects of the plane.

This is one of the main reasons, China for so long, lacked these planes. No home grown platform. Any induction of home grown ones takes decades. Repeated delays even for Boeing.

These days designing a large radar of the size phalcon isn't a big issue for both India and China,thr main hurdle is developing a source code and modeling which makes the reflected signals in useful data for the use of armed forces.