India bans broadcast of gang-rapist documentary

[Tshering22]

I don't know what these filmmakers like about trying to always portray the negative side of India. I watch documentaries on India from many countries' point of view and almost all non-English countries project problems like these as a general law & order issue which in fact, is indeed the problem.

Watch any Russian, Czech, South African or even Chinese or Japanese documentary on India. Any problem related to crime, is always put as a law and order notice rather than curse our culture and customs which certainly don't promote rape in any manner.

That journalist Leslee whatever has used this interview to say that we have a sick culture. Who the hell is she to tell that to the entire country?

UK being a tiny island and a minuscule population has more rapes per capita, while their BBC pees in their pants to name rogues by their ethnic identity and calls them "Asian" gang.

She should perhaps check her own population

_________________________

DEAR BRITS and AMERICAN MEMBERS HERE:

India is nothing like what your corporate politically-driven media or their pet projects in India's English speaking media tell you.

We don't have half the number of laws and regulations you have in your countries to keep people under control and yet in a 125 crore (1.25 billion) population, there is still so much restrain in general. That should tell you volumes about our culture than any single rape or murder which is prevalent all across the world, sadly.

This is not because we promote rape. We also have daughters, wives, mothers, sisters, nieces etc like you guys and we want their safety as well.

Come to any small city here in our country. If you visit smaller towns and villages, in many places you will find that people sleep at night with doors open, when their police stations barely have any policemen to manage anything if something goes wrong.

Can you imagine sleeping like that in your countries if the police is removed for even a couple of hours? Don't kid yourselves, you simply can't. Does that mean that British and American culture is full of thieves, muggers, rapists and arsonists?

In my city Gangtok, despite being the state capital, there is barely any such incident and nothing to the level that is mentioned here. We are also India and so is Delhi.

Then how can your media continue this false assault?

As a matter of fact, I distinctly remember studies both in USA and Britain where the rape per capita/per area figures are some of the highest in the world. Considering the resources, prosperity, your claimed-progressiveness and tiny populations with strong laws, you guys should have 0 rapes and crimes.

So who is worse here?

As per the Indian law, these 5 rapists have been convicted and given death sentences. In fact, it was your 'HUMAN RIGHTS' and NGO brigade who always defend any terrorist, rapist or violent criminal that has committed such horror and made to international news.

Our law of death sentences still holds for these violent criminals.

 

[opruh]

RIP to democracy, you will be missed.

 

[Always Neutral]

And we will take necessary actions against the irresponsible officials.In fact outsiders cant interview Tihar inmates not any more.
You cant judge entire Indians with some so called liberals in media houses.And our authorities didnt expect a stupidity like this.

Our media wont give platform for psycho rapists to prove his point.And you retard journalism also did that.She used the documentary for her reputation purpose and also for corporate interests of BBC.

Of course you are not that dumb to look in to your matters but others.You are not that dumb that is why your authorities didnt take action against those 5 mens that raped your 1400 girls in the name of so called immigrant rights.And perhpas your BBC might knows that media campaign is quite ineffective in Britian.After all Great Britian has people like that film.maker.

Now I know Why Katju your Supreme Court Judge says 95% Indian are idiots. BBC has done several programs on Roeheram and Oxfordshire. You are welcome to come do another no one in UK will ask for it to be banned.

I don't know what these filmmakers like about trying to always portray the negative side of India. I watch documentaries on India from many countries' point of view and almost all non-English countries project problems like these as a general law & order issue which in fact, is indeed the problem.

Watch any Russian, Czech, South African or even Chinese or Japanese documentary on India. Any problem related to crime, is always put as a law and order notice rather than curse our culture and customs which certainly don't promote rape in any manner.

That journalist Leslee whatever has used this interview to say that we have a sick culture. Who the hell is she to tell that to the entire country?

UK being a tiny island and a minuscule population has more rapes per capita, while their BBC pees in their pants to name rogues by their ethnic identity and calls them "Asian" gang.

She should perhaps check her own population

_________________________

DEAR BRITS and AMERICAN MEMBERS HERE:

India is nothing like what your corporate politically-driven media or their pet projects in India's English speaking media tell you.

We don't have half the number of laws and regulations you have in your countries to keep people under control and yet in a 125 crore (1.25 billion) population, there is still so much restrain in general. That should tell you volumes about our culture than any single rape or murder which is prevalent all across the world, sadly.

This is not because we promote rape. We also have daughters, wives, mothers, sisters, nieces etc like you guys and we want their safety as well.

Come to any small city here in our country. If you visit smaller towns and villages, in many places you will find that people sleep at night with doors open, when their police stations barely have any policemen to manage anything if something goes wrong.

Can you imagine sleeping like that in your countries if the police is removed for even a couple of hours? Don't kid yourselves, you simply can't. Does that mean that British and American culture is full of thieves, muggers, rapists and arsonists?

In my city Gangtok, despite being the state capital, there is barely any such incident and nothing to the level that is mentioned here. We are also India and so is Delhi.

Then how can your media continue this false assault?

As a matter of fact, I distinctly remember studies both in USA and Britain where the rape per capita/per area figures are some of the highest in the world. Considering the resources, prosperity, your claimed-progressiveness and tiny populations with strong laws, you guys should have 0 rapes and crimes.

So who is worse here?

As per the Indian law, these 5 rapists have been convicted and given death sentences. In fact, it was your 'HUMAN RIGHTS' and NGO brigade who always defend any terrorist, rapist or violent criminal that has committed such horror and made to international news.

Our law of death sentences still holds for these violent criminals.

NO BRIT OR AMERICAN WILL CHANGE HIS OPINION ABOUT INDIA BECAUSE OF THIS PROGRAM BUT AFTER SEEING YOUR GOVT. RUNNING LIKE HEADLESS CHICKENS TO BAN SOMETHING THEY GAVE PERMISSION THEY WILL SEE YOU NO BETTER THEN PAKISTAN, IRAN OR N KOREA. SO MUCH FOR BEING A DEMOCRACY.

 

[Ryuzaki]

I don't know what these filmmakers like about trying to always portray the negative side of India. I watch documentaries on India from many countries' point of view and almost all non-English countries project problems like these as a general law & order issue which in fact, is indeed the problem.

Watch any Russian, Czech, South African or even Chinese or Japanese documentary on India. Any problem related to crime, is always put as a law and order notice rather than curse our culture and customs which certainly don't promote rape in any manner.

That journalist Leslee whatever has used this interview to say that we have a sick culture. Who the hell is she to tell that to the entire country?

UK being a tiny island and a minuscule population has more rapes per capita, while their BBC pees in their pants to name rogues by their ethnic identity and calls them "Asian" gang.

She should perhaps check her own population

_________________________

DEAR BRITS and AMERICAN MEMBERS HERE:

India is nothing like what your corporate politically-driven media or their pet projects in India's English speaking media tell you.

We don't have half the number of laws and regulations you have in your countries to keep people under control and yet in a 125 crore (1.25 billion) population, there is still so much restrain in general. That should tell you volumes about our culture than any single rape or murder which is prevalent all across the world, sadly.

This is not because we promote rape. We also have daughters, wives, mothers, sisters, nieces etc like you guys and we want their safety as well.

Come to any small city here in our country. If you visit smaller towns and villages, in many places you will find that people sleep at night with doors open, when their police stations barely have any policemen to manage anything if something goes wrong.

Can you imagine sleeping like that in your countries if the police is removed for even a couple of hours? Don't kid yourselves, you simply can't. Does that mean that British and American culture is full of thieves, muggers, rapists and arsonists?

In my city Gangtok, despite being the state capital, there is barely any such incident and nothing to the level that is mentioned here. We are also India and so is Delhi.

Then how can your media continue this false assault?

As a matter of fact, I distinctly remember studies both in USA and Britain where the rape per capita/per area figures are some of the highest in the world. Considering the resources, prosperity, your claimed-progressiveness and tiny populations with strong laws, you guys should have 0 rapes and crimes.

So who is worse here?

As per the Indian law, these 5 rapists have been convicted and given death sentences. In fact, it was your 'HUMAN RIGHTS' and NGO brigade who always defend any terrorist, rapist or violent criminal that has committed such horror and made to international news.

Our law of death sentences still holds for these violent criminals.

India's Daughter: Here's why we need to go beyond BBC's nauseating moralising

The government's attempts to restrain the BBC from airing a documentary on rape, built around the story of the December 2012 Delhi gangrape victim (a.k.a. Nirbhaya), are pointless. It has effectively given BBC the opportunity to get higher viewership for their film, titled "India's Daughter", whose selling point is obviously the misogynist statements of the rapists (and their lawyers) who were interviewed for it.

The government’s response allows the BBC to adopt a high moral tone on how it is holding a mirror to Indian men's mindsets. Its tone is superior and nauseating: “This harrowing documentary, made with the full support and cooperation of the victim’s parents, provides a revealing insight into the horrific crime that sent shock waves around the world and led to protests across India demanding changes in attitudes towards women.”

As Indians, we should certainly not fight shy of acknowledging our own failings as a society, much less ban such films. The restraint order by a Delhi court on the screening of the film, however valid legally, demonstrates the impotence of the Indian state, and its inability to uphold its own laws, despite legislating so many of them.


A screengrab from the documentary

The reason why the BBC documentary offends us is not its essential truth, but the ignominy of an outsider pointing it out to us. I am sure enough Muslims in India would be equally offended if we made a documentary showing how Indian Islam treats its women. The outsider's critiques are always unpalatable.

At another level, the documentary also illustrates the inability of the Indian state, and its ruling elite, to understand the workings of global power manipulators using money, media and the technology of power and influence to undermine us. The western world knows how to use India's own umpteen faultlines – of caste, gender and economic inequities - to undermine the emergence of a strong state which can implement the rule of law fearlessly. The west does not want a strong state to develop in India or else its own geopolitical agenda cannot be pursued.

Before one discusses these points, let me make my stand clear on two counts: I am against any kind of ban on media documentaries or artistic work, whatever the motives of its authors or their financial backers. Also, I hold no brief whatsoever for “sick male mindsets” that are a product of centuries of misogyny and patriarchy. Our first job as a society is to speed up the process of ending patriarchy and making boys and men develop genuine respect for women on the basis of equality and a shared partnership for the benefit of society.

But we also need to understand how power equations work globally, and if we do not understand this, we are forever going to be pushed around on the basis of foreign agendas masquerading as concern for human rights. Indians often do not understand when we are fighting injustices in our own society and when we may be furthering someone else's covert agenda to undermine us.

Take the rule of law and how little we understand it. We should also understand how it will be used against us to show up our weaknesses, while the west will commit the same crimes under the veneer of their rule of law.

Here’s one illustration: Fake encounters to eliminate troublesome criminals or terrorists are illegal both in the Indian and US context. In India, fake encounters are the result of a weak state. The police resort to it in order to overcome the failings of a corrupt and excruciatingly slow legal system and inadequate resources to gather foolproof evidence against criminals and terrorists. Whether it is Punjab, Gujarat or UP, fake encounters have been the short-cuts used to eliminate people against whom we can’t find enough legal evidence to arrest and convict.

The west will use this endlessly against us, helped, in turn, by human rights activists here. But do we know that the US also conducts many such extra-legal assassinations? Do we know that President Obama has himself signed scores of death warrants of people he thinks are terrorists, including American citizens? He has converted the CIA, a spy agency, into an assassination squad, which uses snipers and drones to kill enemies of the US state (read here).

The difference is this: while we will call our killings fake encounters, the US assassinations will be couched in legalities and presidential findings. This is what I call the effective use of the technology of power, where a patently illegal act can be sanctified by using verbal and technological techniques to paint it differently in India and the US.

Take another example. The Indian media and its western counterparts have talked endlessly about the Sangh’s “ghar wapsi” programme – making us cringe with shame. But what is ghar wapsi? A religious reconversion programme that’s been badly handled in front of the media. Can a liberal state ban ghar wapsi when it cannot ban religious propaganda or conversions away from Hinduism? The media painted ghar wapsi as some kind of unmitigated evil, but did not produce even one documentary on what the evangelical organisations are upto. Did the BBC produce any such programme showing the “missionary mindset” and the harm it is doing to societal cohesion in India?

Once again, the point to underscore is this: the west knows how to use media and technology to pursue its own agendas, overt or covert. But we are unable to separate the issues in our own minds. We are poor players in the technology of power, media management and soft influence.

Now, let’s come to the BBC documentary. Consider how the author protects her own country’s laws, but how we are unable to protect ours.

First, we give a foreign reporter access to rapists - an access we would not give to our own journalists. What does this say about our kowtowing to goras? We will subvert our own laws to curry favour with them.

Second, the journalist involved, Leslee Udwin, gets signed consent letters from the rapists before filming their statements on rape. This shows that Udwin knows she has to respect the laws under which the BBC operates. But did she show equal concern for Indian laws beyond obtaining permissions from the home ministry? Did our own government get her to sign a legally valid document specifying what she can do or cannot do with the interview? There may be a general letter somewhere intended to protect a babu’s backside, but it will probably be legally unenforceable against the BBC.

The facts are that Udwin sought the home ministry's permission to interview the convicts and understand their psyche.The Times of India says Udwin promised to use the footage solely for "social purposes" and give the footage to the authorities for vetting. Apparently only the edited version was shown. But the "social purpose" documentary was then sold to the Beeb. How come the babus in the home ministry did not understand that practically anything can be done in the name of “social purpose.”


Why did the authorities let the crew circumvent procedures? AP

The question is: When Udwin did everything to follow the law back home in the UK, why did our home ministry not do anything to protect our laws and the rights of the convicts interviewed, when the appeal process is far from over? Such damaging releases of convicts' statements can work against their appeals, still pending in the Supreme Court, as the judiciary may now feel compelled to uphold the death sentences on these "sick minds". Would the legal system in the US or UK have allowed such a prejudicial airing of a convict's views before a verdict? Would defence lawyers not be screaming mistrial and attempts to bias the judge or jury? But we happily do this without regard to the law.

The Times of India quotes feminist lawyer Indira Jaising as claiming that the broadcast of the film “would amount to violation of Article 19(2) of the Constitution, Section 153A of IPC and Section 2(c) of the Contempt of Courts Act, 1971. ‘At present, the defendant's appeal against conviction and death sentence is pending before the Supreme Court; therefore, airing the documentary would amount to gross contempt of court,’” Jaising wrote to NDTV, which aired promos of the documentary containing the rapist’s statements.

Did the Indian home ministry not know the law before giving Udwin the right to interview convicted rapists? Now, by ham-handedly trying to prevent the BBC from airing it, it will even be accused of trying to curb freedom of speech, and shielding society from the plain unvarnished truth of “men with misogynist mindsets.” Two self-goals in one.

Udwin's interview to the Hindustan Times shows how well the foreign media establishment will use our own follies against us. Asked why she called the film "India's Daughter" when the title itself sounds patriarchal, she says: "Yes, but the victim was called India's Daughter by the press here and we are not allowed to name her in India."

Fair enough. But the media in India did not call Nirbhaya “India's Daughter" for the reason she cites. We called herIndia's Daughter because the idea evokes a strong cultural sense of protectiveness towards daughters in society, even though in actual practice we don't protect our vulnerable girls and women. When played abroad, India's Daughter will sound like an indictment of India and its society. The meaning of the title is subtly different in the Indian and western context. The west will use such documentaries to put us on the backfoot, questioning our intentions and undermining our national resolve to grow our defence or global clout, saying why not spend that money to protect your daughters?

Udwin also suggests that her efforts are unquestionable because "I am a rape victim myself." The assumption that a victim is best-placed to tell an objective story is questionable. Her own sense of anger might well have made her biased, but we can't say this without watching the film.

The BBC also says the film was done with the permission of Nirbhaya’s parents. Once again, such permissions mean little. Why would parents seeking justice for their child’s rape and murder not use any forum to air their views? How are they likely to know how the BBC will use their statements in the documentary? The BBC is a product of colonial attitude and funded by the British taxpayer. It loyalties will be to its audience, not India’s interests.

And is the problem our unwillingness to face “male mindsets” or something else? Do we not know what male mindsets are in India? Did we not create an entire commission under Justice JS Verma to look at gender justice? We even legislated a tough law that includes hanging for particularly vicious rape cases. (Read the Verma report here) We don't need to know what male attitudes are, we need to do something about them.

One reason why we have not acted against injustice as strongly as we should is the weak state, where the state finds it impossible to implement its own laws, given the pushes and pulls of a society with multiple kinds of injustice. A simple law to prescribe reservations for women in parliament is held hostage to OBC and Dalit concerns over their own dis-empowerment: attempts to tackle one injustice come up against another group’s sense of injustice.

Politicians use these faultlines to avoid implementing something that can only have a beneficial impact over the very long term. Our netas see more electoral returns in offering voters private freebies (laptops, tariff cuts) than in providing public goods (law and order, women's safety). A society split on caste or religious lines is unable to differentiate between action against criminals and actions against “our people, our caste, our religious group.” This is why a Lalu Prasad and J Jayalalithaa or Jagan Reddy, two of them convicted for corruption, continue to win elections.


Sex education, gender sensitisation and cleaning up the justice system are long-term solutions with no immediate political benefits for anybody. Effective policing and sensitive handling of rape and sexual harassment cases may possibly be the only actions that can have visible results in the short term - and these need to get first priority. But in all the anger over “male mindsets”, the inability of a weak state to take long-term corrective action is not seen as central to the issue of gender justice.

The real danger in all this breast-beating over “male mindsets” is that we won't do the important things that we need to do ensure gender justice. It is only a strong state (which is different from an authoritarian state) that can apply the rule of law and make things work. This needs a state to protect human rights, and not specific community rights, whether based on caste or gender or religion.

In the UK, for years teen girls in Rotherham were subjected to sexual abuse by Pakistani Muslim gangs, but the British police failed to act for fear of being branded “racist.” In other words, even in a society where the rule of law supposedly operates, the law could not prevent injustices to women and vulnerable girls. Udwin could well have written about these "male mindsets", but India is obviously a more enticing prospect.

The lessons we should draw from the BBC’s documentary on India’s Daughter are these: one, we have to develop a thick skin to their media machinations; two, we should focus on what we have to do to correct the injustices in our system and not be distracted by western moralising; and three, we have to develop our own sophisticated systems of giving it back to them in their own coin by developing long-term studies and capabilities to show up the west’s own hypocrisies.

Right now, they can hold a mirror to us, but we cannot do the same to them. They thus have moral power over us. We have not mastered the technology of power and media to achieve a balance.

 

[jamahir]

That journalist Leslee whatever has used this interview to say that we have a sick culture.

don't we??

 

[Always Neutral]

We need a global media house quite on par with BBC.
People will criticise China,Russia,Iran etc.But now we can understand .
They are far better than this hypocrites UK

INVEST IN RUSSIAN TV. IT IS BROAD CAST FROM LONDON BY EX BBC PEOPLE AND ALL PROGRAM ARE ANTI UK, EUROPE AND US AND NOT ONE HAS BEEN BLOCKED TILL DATE AND YES THEY HAVE DONE A PROGRAM ON RAPES IN UK.

 

[Schutz]

Oh what a surprise this turns into an anti British colonial bbc blah blah blah when ignoring the reality of problem

 

[SrNair]

Now I know Why Katju your Supreme Court Judge says 95% Indian are idiots. BBC has done several programs on Roeheram and Oxfordshire. You are welcome to come do another no one in UK will ask for it to be banned.



NO BRIT OR AMERICAN WILL CHANGE HIS OPINION ABOUT INDIA BECAUSE OF THIS PROGRAM BUT AFTER SEEING YOUR GOVT. RUNNING LIKE HEADLESS CHICKENS TO BAN SOMETHING THEY GAVE PERMISSION THEY WILL SEE YOU NO BETTER THEN PAKISTAN, IRAN OR N KOREA. SO MUCH FOR BEING A DEMOCRACY.

That is your cultural value.Sorry we cant embrace that level.of western culture in my nation.Only a representative from a degraded society will show excitement to add an interview of a psychopath in their documentary and your director just did that.And now your corporates are cashing on these unfortunate incident.Pathetic

INVEST IN RUSSIAN TV. IT IS BROAD CAST FROM LONDON BY EX BBC PEOPLE AND ALL PROGRAM ARE ANTI UK, EUROPE AND US AND NOT ONE HAS BEEN BLOCKED TILL DATE AND YES THEY HAVE DONE A PROGRAM ON RAPES IN UK.

Dude .Perhaps you guys may have rhinoskins and always like to cashing on unfortunate incident through unethical journalism and programs .But we dont do that .
By making programs like this you are just adding insult on injury in there.Sorry our culture wont allow it.

 

[Always Neutral]

That is your cultural value.Sorry we cant embrace that level.of western culture in my nation.Only a representative from a degraded society will show excitement to add an interview of a psychopath in their documentary and your director just did that.And now your corporates are cashing on these unfortunate incident.Pathetic



Dude .Perhaps you guys may have rhinoskins and always like to cashing on unfortunate incident through unethical journalism and programs .But we dont do that .
By making programs like this you are just adding insult on injury in there.Sorry our culture wont allow it.

NO WE ARE MATURE AND DONT CARE WHO EXPOSES OUR WEAKNESSES BUT WE DONT ACT LIKE DUMBASS

 

[Tshering22]

don't we??

Speak for your culture bub. Not our India's.

Criminal rapist psychopaths are more per 100,000 in a tiny island like UK which their own criminal research statistics has proven.

And the punishment for psychopaths is death sentence which has already been given.

Yes there is a problem in speedy justice which we all must work towards but it gives BBC no right to curse our culture.

Here are some interesting pointers that came to light after the interview happened. Read them:

Most Women Feel Safe Travelling Solo in India: Survey

Women 'to blame' for being raped | Daily Mail Online

India's Daughter: Rape convict paid Rs.40,000 for interview? | Latest News & Updates at Daily News & Analysis


Rape in India – Why it becomes a worldwide story


And finally, this is what we Indians want to do to convicted rapists and this is what we do:

Nagaland: Rape accused dragged out of jail custody, lynched-IndiaNews - IBNLive Mobile

_______________________________________________________

Read and weep Libyan, read and weep.

Next time you want to talk about sick cultures, do try to post something about your loverlords in the Middle East than abuse Indian culture which has been far superior to anything your region offers.

And please, be a man enough not to hide behind that 'I am a communist' placard. We all know what direction of thought you come from whenever you assault Indian culture.

 

[jamahir]

And please, be a man enough not to hide behind that 'I am a communist' placard. We all know what direction of thought you come from whenever you assault Indian culture.

again the messenger is shot... owww.

Criminal rapist psychopaths are more per 100,000 in a tiny island like UK which their own criminal research statistics has proven.

this is what schutz said above in post# 66... "Oh what a surprise this turns into an anti British colonial bbc blah blah blah when ignoring the reality of problem".

it is shameful that the torturers of amaanat are being justified by many indian members of pdf through excusing away the oppressiveness within india.

than abuse Indian culture which has been far superior to anything your region offer

my region is south asia, and what is this "superior indian culture" you speak of...

 

[Tshering22]

again the messenger is shot... owww.



this is what schutz said above in post# 66... "Oh what a surprise this turns into an anti British colonial bbc blah blah blah when ignoring the reality of problem".

it is shameful that the torturers of amaanat are being justified by many indian members of pdf through excusing away the oppressiveness within india.

FYI her name was Jyoti Singh.

Her parents openly pleaded this should not be shown.

The criminals are already facing death sentence.

Stop being a klutz.

 

[jamahir]

FYI her name was Jyoti Singh.

i know... and if another name has to be used for her i don't want it to be something stupid like "nirbhaya"... she is amaanat... amaaanat.

Her parents openly pleaded this should not be shown.

link, please.

besides, they are being very wrong or have been pressurized by modi's goons.

The criminals are already facing death sentence.

for the tortures they inflicted on her, i am ready to form a firing squad, socialist-style... with the permission of the supreme court, of course.

this documentary is essential because it shows to the world ( esp. to indians ) the source of the mentality of such criminals... the mentality of cruelty, selfishness, oppression, backwardness that resides within something called "indian culture".

Stop being a klutz.

why do so many bhakts use amercanisms??

 

[Tshering22]

link, please.

besides, they are being very wrong or have been pressurized by modi's goons.

Do your homework. There is something called Google.

And what's the point of bringing the PM into this?

for the tortures they inflicted on her, i am ready to form a firing squad, socialist-style.

Firing squad is a worthy punishment indeed. As for your "socialism" a super commercialized capitalist country like Hong Kong also has the punishment.

But in India, the punishment is by hanging unto death.

If you don't like it, move to Libya.

this documentary is essential because it shows to the world ( esp. to indians ) the source of the mentality of such criminals... the mentality of cruelty, selfishness, oppression, backwardness that resides within something called "indian culture".

This psychopath mentality is something all countries of the world deal with regardless of culture. It is common place in Middle East and accepted normal there. Try your cleansing program in that region first.

why do so many bhakts use amercanisms??

Because Arab-wannabes don't understand common civility.