India Asks, Should Food Be a Right for the Poor?

[Spring Onion]

The entire world should ask this question right from Somalia to India hunger is looming

 

[EjazR]

The Public Distribution system in India which is made out to be one of the sources of providing "subsidized food" is one of the worse way to reduce hunger.

It is tailor made for corruption and a handy tool for populist politics and vote bank politics. Each political party vying and promising rice or wheat at 2 or 3 Rs per kilo is just making a fool of the masses who unfortunately are not well educated and have no understanding of economics.

What the government should be doing is creating the infrastructure where farmers can easily and quickly move and sell or store their grains. India produces much more than it needs, still people are dying of hunger. The problem is with the storage and distribution where corrupt bureaucrats take advantage of the subsidy system.

India should get of the planning economy mindset. Its been 20 years already with Soviet economic collapse. Start thinking already.

The solution is for the government to provide seed capital to the poor. Don't give handouts make them capable of buying their own food. Bangladeshi economist and Nobel prize winner Mohammed Yonus has it right. GoI should work in promoting social capitalism / social entrepreneurship.

Eg:Indian Rickshaws Pull Ahead With Social Entrepreneurship - New America Media

Now will this work?
Strict limits of the seed capital less than a (thousand$) or guaranteed return with low interest rate small loans will hardly be a cost and infact return a profit to the govt. to be reinvested back in the program.

Of course we scrap or drastically reduce or privatise the PDS system. Build up the small players to give them a level playing field through legislation (tax breaks e.t.c.). Direct payment into Bank Accounts and use of the NREGA framework in social roll call monitoring through the RTI act by active citizens will help in keeping Corruption in check hopefully.

 

[GentlemanObserver]

Ration cards are also used in the UK.. For baby milk for poor families:
BBC News - Downing Street rejects child milk scheme cut suggestion

 

[sunny001]

I studied at BVBPS BHEL hyderabad and it was besides a Zillaparishad school(Govt school),this school gave its students free 2 pairs of uniform,education,breakfast as well as lunch.My housemaid's son used to study in that school,he'd go to school for only food and sneak out under the fence to come back and help his mom, or do gardening at someother house.Frankly these schools were never productive as neither the parents were interested,nor the children,nor the teachers or Management.Most of these kids discontinued their education or never passed and those who passed out didn't have proper communication skills for jobs ,the only thing they were good at was sports.So i don't have much hopes on these free provision schemes


Yes AP is certainly good like all other South Indian states,As a Hyderabadi i feel very proud of that fact.But the talk here is about those 8 northern states where most of our population is concentrated,politics,corruption etc,also the poor i.e 421 million poor of India live there i.e 61% of India's poor.Namely UP,Bihar,Rajasthan,MP,West Bengal,Jharkhand,Uttaranchal & Orissa.



Only if our growth continues to be inclusive.

You are talking of one specific example that you encountered. Also in this case, it's the mistake of the school to allow students to bunk classes and yet get the ration. I know number of students in my village who benefited from these schemes. They are many parents that I know who want better lives for their kids, esp farmers.

One more incentive could be giving extra money if they attend classes and pass the exams. Just asking them to come to schools wouldn't cut it out.

I talked about AP as an example for other states to follow, not as a subject of discussion. Inclusive growth would only come when we have educated citizenry who can claim their rights.

 

[muse]

You have complained that some Indians are not critical enough(fair enough) but that is (in most cases) the picture that they see & experience. It's extremely difficult to try & hold on to perspective these days. That is why, you might see many Indians getting carried away. It is a

more confident

India than anything that existed for a very long time.

It's not a complaint, just an observation -- you say "more confident", sure - but I would more illmannered as well - confidence is not the same as a country bumpkin manner where you don't realize what you say and where you say it or to whom.


My thinking is more in tune with Ejaz on this - People want more freedom not less, with more government you always get less freedom - I don't mean some esoteric "freedom" rather people want a chance or opportunity for themselves, government can never provide that - it may regulate in the sense of providing laws to ensure an equality, but it can never itself provide for that opportunity.

Yes AP is certainly good like all other South Indian states,As a Hyderabadi i feel very proud of that fact.But the talk here is about those 8 northern states where most of our population is concentrated,politics,corruption etc,also the poor i.e 421 million poor of India live there i.e 61% of India's poor.Namely UP,Bihar,Rajasthan,MP,West Bengal,Jharkhand,Uttaranchal & Orissa

.


Look, least keep it real -- Indian population, if you think about it, in a outside of Indian box, is very very sobering -- It's a huge problem and it will require huge solution -- that all schools are filled up in not a net negative, it just means more and more has to be done to elevate the minimum standard or line -

I dont want to throw up excuses or be defensive, but the truth is that a lot of these numbers are fudged. Govt. agencies and state govts. show higher numbers to qualify for central and NGO grants. There have been instances in which district officials have shown below poverty line figures that were higher than the entire district's population. I am not saying there are no poor and its all a fake show. There are still substantial number of poor. But the actual number would be much lesser than the one thrown about

Easy, take it easy - see above, it's a huge population, it's a huge problem -- work at solving the problem instead of telling us, "yes. out of a population of 1 plus billion..." Just relax and work at it - all life is problem solving, right?

The issue isn't money or the lack of it. Its about the people that run the system.

Perish the thought - those 421 Million, they're just "confused" -- people not the system? like saying the problem with communism is communists? Do be a good chap and make sense.

Ration card book is sort of an ID/account book that qualifies a family for essential supplies at subsidized prices from govt run stores. A sort of social benefit scheme. And its still in use because obviously there still are people who need it

If one can purchase supplies at a subsidized price which tax Rupees enable, why would one want to spend more money than one has to at a regular store? I point I am getting at is that, at least from perspective, these sorts of government "schemes" always have the effect of empowering bureaucrats and promoting corruption, because they have economics all wrong.

All over Asia, not just India, whenever "do gooder" types involve government in a problem, the probelm seems to multiply.

You have to understand the context. The govt. is trying to guarantee them food to ensure that the children arent malnourished. They arent guaranteeing them a job or a home. Just food.
But personally, I dont think this is a great step. Rather than alleviate malnourishment it will help the corrupt.

Amen to that - but look, gaurantee food but not job? either way, tax rupees are at work and inefficiently - I just can't see any Indian, let alone Asian, agreeing that working to eat is somehow an alien concept.

I'm going to give a few examples of how the situation is in the city & the state I live in is. We keep hearing of unemployment & yet there is a labour shortage in the city of Bangalore. Almost all industries face some shortage of labour. According to a friend of mine, the situation in rural areas is no better. He hails from the district of coorg where his family has some small coffee plantations. The village he grew up in has seen all the young men leave to migrate to the cities. There are very few left to help harvest the crop. So few, that they have had to depend on workers from the state of Tamil Nadu for the last few years. That too has changed recently because the government there now offers a substantial amount of rice & pulses (think it's enough to last a family for a month)at a very low rate(<Rs.100/-). That & a free colour television. Not many from that state are migrating in search of work anymore. Workers are now being brought in from Bihar & Orissa & even Bihar has seen less migration in recent years and more people returning back because of increased opportunities there. Yet we know that in some areas including some parts of North Karnataka itself, the picture is very different. That unfortunately is the reality but only of the present. The change that is happening ( & I am not boasting) is immense as opportunities explode in people's faces. In 10-20 years, you might see a very different India than you might have become accustomed to. Some areas will take longer to catch up & some will fall victim to populist politicians but you have the feeling here that we are at the cusp of a major transformation

.

Now, I must say I don't understand why there is a shortage of labor - what is the cause of it? How can all industries have a shortage of labor given the huge population? -- Is it that development or increase in devlopment has a geographical component, with some areas developing more and others not enough? and is this a result of policy decisions? -- I would have thought that areas with large populations would be more developed - what am I missing in this picture?

A similar problem is being experienced by Punjab farmers. Labor from Bihar, UP and Bengal has become scarce and pricier as they now have opportunities via NREGA. And even though you earn less through NREGA than you would in a Punjab farm during harvesting and sowing, Rs.100/day in your own village/district is much better than Rs. 200/day a thousand miles away from home.

The end result has been that the cost price of a wheat/rice crop has been pushed up. So the already indebted farmers demand more and the govt raises the Minimum Support Price to satisfy them. Buying the same higher priced rice and distributing it to the same laborers via PDS at a subsidized price, taking in huge losses. So the govt. loses twice - by doling out NREGA cash for less than a hard days labor (creating artificial employment) and by paying a higher price for the foodgrains. It seems like a never ending cycle.

You will find the same pattern whererever politiicans offer to "do good or do right" - In other words the relationship between cost of production and price has no market logic - it's tailor made for corruption - it works the exact same way for government owned enterprises - look at the Pakistani example, things like steel, or railways or airlines -- Generally politicians will be very reluctant to give up on these cash cows (for them) and I think Mrs. Gandhi is a rather astute politician.

 

[Kyusuibu Honbu]

What the government should be doing is creating the infrastructure where farmers can easily and quickly move and sell or store their grains. India produces much more than it needs, still people are dying of hunger. The problem is with the storage and distribution where corrupt bureaucrats take advantage of the subsidy system.

Something related to it,i found in today's newspaper.

Rats healthier than an average Indian

Renowned food scientist and former Director of Central Food Technological Research Institute H.A.B. Parpia has called for effective food storage measures to prevent losses and ensure food for all.

Promoting food loss prevention measures indefatigably since the last 55 years, Dr. Parpia underlined its imperatives if nutritional security for all as envisaged by the government is to become a reality.

In an interaction with The Hindu, Dr. Parpia, who was also associated with the Food and Agricultural Organisation of the United Nations, said: “Six rats eat the food of one man and an average *** in the country is more nutritionally healthy than an average Indian.” He pointed out that food loss during the post- harvest stage was 30 per cent to 35 per cent while the loss of perishable products was 50 per cent. “Food saved is equal to food produced and water conserved,” he said.

Dr. Parpia referred to the reports of food loss due to poor storage conditions making waves across the country and said it may be an “eye-opener” for many today. But the government was alerted about the problem way back in 1956 about rats eating away the food stored in warehouses. “If the problem persists after the warning was issued more than five decades ago and reminded constantly, it only means that the government is not serious in shoring up the storage facilities to keep up with the expanding production,” said Dr. Paripa.
Pessimism

Taking a dim view of those advocating second “Green Revolution” to double food production, Dr. Parpia said they are divorced from the field realities of declining agricultural yield and depleting water resources. “Greater the food production, greater the food loss unless measures were in place to them in the first place,” he said.

The Hindu : States / Karnataka : Rats healthier than an average Indian

 

[RobbieS]

Easy, take it easy - see above, it's a huge population, it's a huge problem -- work at solving the problem instead of telling us, "yes. out of a population of 1 plus billion..." Just relax and work at it - all life is problem solving, right?

Listen, I dont like your patronizing tone. If you think you're the expert and making a much greater difference to society as compared to us "tense and wound up internet warriors" then I'd be glad to hear of your exploits.

As I said, nobody is trying to give any excuses, the least of all to you. And thanks pointing out that its a huge problem, we wouldnt have realized otherwise. A

Perish the thought - those 421 Million, they're just "confused" -- people not the system? like saying the problem with communism is communists? Do be a good chap and make sense.

Why is it that anybody who has a different opinion than yours, just doesn't seem like making sense to you? And taking a leaf out of your book- Your comments above aren't making a lot of sense either.

If one can purchase supplies at a subsidized price which tax Rupees enable, why would one want to spend more money than one has to at a regular store? I point I am getting at is that, at least from perspective, these sorts of government "schemes" always have the effect of empowering bureaucrats and promoting corruption, because they have economics all wrong.

All over Asia, not just India, whenever "do gooder" types involve government in a problem, the probelm seems to multiply.

Thank you Einstein. Social welfare schemes aren't wrong economically. They make perfect economic sense. Its the implementation and the lack of checks that makes them go wrong and fail in their objective.

Amen to that - but look, gaurantee food but not job? either way, tax rupees are at work and inefficiently -

The people at whom this scheme is aimed at are usually classified as unskilled labours. Now the govt. can only run so many projects to provide employment to them and nor can it compete with private enterprises that far greater opportunities. You cant expect the govt. to run lawn-mowing services for all the unskilled!

But by providing them a guarantee for food, it enables them to ensure meals for themselves and their family while looking for a job. It ensures that at least they can send their children to school (btw read about the midday meal scheme) and not drag them to work with them.

I just can't see any Indian, let alone Asian, agreeing that working to eat is somehow an alien concept.

And spare me the psychological BS. Your insight and expertise into the Asian mindset aside, I dont think any of us here knows whats it like to be poor. You really think you're going to accuse a poor guy who gets some food for his family via a Ration Card of not respecting the ancient Asian traditions and concepts? Stop being so righteous.

Working hard for your food is a good concept but given a chance we would all like to get the maximum benefit out of the least amount of work.

You will find the same pattern whererever politiicans offer to "do good or do right" - In other words the relationship between cost of production and price has no market logic - it's tailor made for corruption - it works the exact same way for government owned enterprises - look at the Pakistani example, things like steel, or railways or airlines -- Generally politicians will be very reluctant to give up on these cash cows (for them) and I think Mrs. Gandhi is a rather astute politician.

Again, these schemes like the Ration Card made perfect economic sense initially. Just that their keepers weren't kept in check.

Mrs. Gandhi's an ok politician. The brains behind current welfare schemes like the NREGA in India is a guy called Jean Dreze. Jean Dr&#232;ze - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[IFB]

The food distribution system is corrupt---For example Rice from tamil nadu is smuggled into Kerala (Cop's seize these lorries regularly).Its the poor people who suffer the corrupt politicians dont care about anyone they are hand in glove with the thief's (one DMK minister's lorry in Tamil Nadu was caught smuggling sand... the minister said "sorry" in the TN assembly on live television) .

I think this happened during the AIADMK period the then chief minister j jayalalitha said the people in the village eat ***'s cause they like it

The Hindu : *** as food: SC notice to Centre, T.N.

 

[HitNRun]

Seems to me India is a FAIL state ....

 

[gurjot]

Seems to me India is a FAIL state ....

world is pointing some where else.there r lot of factors which shows the failed state.