India and US face tough negotiations on CISMOA, now called COMCASA

[VivasvatManu]

Wisdom dictates that we continue the same path, i.e. building our capabilities.

We are the ones gaining the most relative power during peacetime, so we have no interest in firing the first shot. We will leave that to India, just like before:

India pleaded for US help against China in 1962 - Times of India

I guess they should have learned from before, and from the Philippines in 2012, and from the Ukraine in 2014... America never comes to rescue their pawns.

Not even if they are bound by a full mutual defence treaty like with the Philippines, as seen when China forcibly seized territory from the Philippines in 2012, and America not only abandoned their mutual defence treaty, but refused to sanction China for even $0.01.

Not even $0.01, that's how much America thinks their pawns are worth. They threw more of a fuss when China seized Aksai Chin from India. And that still wasn't worth a cent to them.

Building our individual capabilities is given. There is no particular wisdom in that.

Wisdom lies in choosing your friends and guiding your actions which impact others.

Chinese aggression and Indian stupidity in 1962 is well documented and I have no interest in debating history. I am talking about the present and the future.

Again US treatment of Philippines or Pakistan does not interest me. US policies too are well documented and certainly understood by Indians.

So for now there is a Logistics agreement signed that will give India access to SCS and there is a COMCASA which US has proposed.

One of the factors which will decide Indian next step is Chinese actions. So rather than protest to Indians in pdf, you would be well advice to guide the CCP.

No amount of abusing US and attempting to "mock" India will cause a course correction. Hope you have the intelligence to recognise that. So why not show some dignity and work towards a better future ?

The ball is in your court.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

Building our individual capabilities is given. There is no particular wisdom in that.

Wisdom lies in choosing your friends and guiding your actions which impact others.

Chinese aggression and Indian stupidity in 1962 is well documented and I have no interest in debating history. I am talking about the present and the future.

Again US treatment of Philippines or Pakistan does not interest me. US policies too are well documented and certainly understood by Indians.

So for now there is a Logistics agreement signed that will give India access to SCS and there is a COMCASA which US has proposed.

One of the factors which will decide Indian next step is Chinese actions. So rather than protest to Indians in pdf, you would be well advice to guide the CCP.

No amount of abusing US and attempting to "mock" India will cause a course correction. Hope you have the intelligence to recognise that. So why not show some dignity and work towards a better future ?

The ball is in your court.

You misunderstand, I am not protesting this at all.

I believe that India has every right to do whatever they want with their own sovereignty, whether they choose to treasure it, or sell it... that's their own choice.

The truth is, I grudgingly respected India for not selling out their sovereignty to the US military for all these years. I believed that India was a truly independent and sovereign power, which was a rarity in this part of the world. And that despite our differences, that gave them the legitimacy to eventually become one of the main poles in a Multi-polar world.

Unfortunately it turned out that India was just slow to the party, and this perception was merely an accident. India as of right now is fully on course to becoming nothing more than a vassal state of the US military, given that India no longer has the ability to kick them out even if they wanted to.

Disappointing, but also quite a relief. We have lost a possible major competitor, now the only real competitor is the one calling the shots for India (USA). Which makes it easier to negotiate, since we can go above India's head and talk to their boss the USA directly.

 

[VivasvatManu]

You misunderstand, I am not protesting this at all.

I believe that India has every right to do whatever they want with their own sovereignty, whether they choose to treasure it, or sell it... that's their own choice.

The truth is, I grudgingly respected India for not selling out their sovereignty to the US military for all these years. I believed that India was a truly independent and sovereign power, which was a rarity in this part of the world. And that despite our differences, that gave them the legitimacy to eventually become one of the main poles in a Multi-polar world.

Unfortunately it turned out that India was just slow to the party, and this perception was merely an accident. India as of right now is fully on course to becoming nothing more than a vassal state of the US military, given that India no longer has the ability to kick them out even if they wanted to.

Disappointing, but also quite a relief. We have lost a possible major competitor, now the only real competitor is the one calling the shots for India (USA). Which makes it easier to negotiate, since we can go above India's head and talk to their boss the USA directly.

I am aware of your character and that is why I am responding to you.

All this noise you make is nothing but protest.

India has now taken a bold step to securing our interests and that has caught china by surprise. The last time it was Indira Gandhi who took such bold decisions and they were a few decades in the past.

But now that china has recognised the quality of present leadership in India, china needs to re-calibrate its response.

I see no reason to defend India or its position to you. You are entitled to your own opinion.

If you have nothing more to say and have found "relief", maybe you can stop making all this noise and retire in peace. After all Actions speak louder than words.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

If you have nothing more to say and have found "relief", maybe you can stop making all this noise and retire in peace. After all Actions speak louder than words.

Hmm maybe posting on this thread is my own form of catharsis?

Regardless, I'll continue discussing this topic, because I find it to be interesting.

As I said, I can understand countries during wartime, under imminent existential threat, giving up their sovereignty to the US military as a measure of last resort.

However India is not in a precarious situation at all, there is no imminent existential threat. And yet India has bargained away its own sovereignty during peacetime?

For what? The NSG seat? To annoy China and Pakistan? Surely there are much cheaper ways to annoy China and Pakistan than that. And the US cannot deliver on the NSG/UNSC seat, as we have seen just recently, not while China has veto power there.

 

[VivasvatManu]

Hmm maybe posting on this thread is my own form of catharsis?

Regardless, I'll continue discussing this topic, because I find it to be interesting.

As I said, I can understand countries during wartime, under imminent existential threat, giving up their sovereignty to the US military as a measure of last resort.

However India is not in a precarious situation at all, there is no imminent existential threat. And yet India has bargained away its own sovereignty during peacetime?

For what? The NSG seat? To annoy China and Pakistan? Surely there are much cheaper ways to annoy China and Pakistan than that.

No doubt you are hurt and seek catharsis and I am truly sorry that India should have found reason to hurt you. I would like nothing better than be friends with China. I would favour this friendship far more than the US.

But Chinese political thought is narrow and immature and their Actions are clumsy.

The first element of friendship is "respect". So maybe China first needs to first Respect India.

India is making a play to end the threat of terrorism once and for all and India has announced our intentions for all to hear. US has heard us and have modified their speech and actions in alignment with our desires. China is yet to do so.

So China needs to be encouraged and any and all agreements India signs will be to "encourage" China to do the right thing. In an Ideal world China would should have done this WITHOUT encouragement.

As I said, the ball is in your court. You know what needs to be done. The only thing that matters now is if you will do it or not. Everything else is just a side show.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

No doubt you are hurt and seek catharsis and I am truly sorry that India should have found reason to hurt you. I would like nothing better than be friends with China. I would favour this friendship far more than the US.

Catharsis means a purging of emotion, not of pain. The emotion in question here is disappointment.

But Chinese political thought is narrow and immature and their Actions are clumsy.

The first element of friendship is "respect". So maybe China first needs to first Respect India.

India is making a play to end the threat of terrorism once and for all and India has announced our intentions for all to hear. US has heard us and have modified their speech and actions in alignment with our desires. China is yet to do so.

So China needs to be encouraged and any and all agreements India signs will be to "encourage" China to do the right thing. In an Ideal world China would should have done this WITHOUT encouragement.

As I said, the ball is in your court. You know what needs to be done. The only thing that matters now is if you will do it or not. Everything else is just a side show.

Well of course the USA will seek to accommodate you, after all you have sold your sovereignty to them.

They have already been paid, the greatest price that India could pay.

Sino-Indian relations are a different issue, and mostly minor in the scheme of global politics.

 

[VivasvatManu]

Catharsis means a purging of emotion, not of pain. The emotion in question here is disappointment.

Either way I remain sorry to be a part of it.

Well of course the USA will seek to accommodate you, after all you have sold your sovereignty to them.

They have already been paid, the greatest price that India could pay.

Sino-Indian relations are a different issue, and mostly minor in the scheme of global politics.

More pathetic attempts to "mock" and goad India into a china favourable action.

Its just silly and it seriously lowers your dignity by whining about it.

You want India to act favourable towards China, give us a reason to do so.

Its as simple as that. No need to create a ruckus.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

Either way I remain sorry to be a part of it.

More pathetic attempts to "mock" and goad India into a china favourable action.

Its just silly and it seriously lowers your dignity by whining about it.

You want India to act favourable towards China, give us a reason to do so.

Its as simple as that. No need to create a ruckus.

Um, how can this discussion on an anonymous internet forum, "goad" India into doing anything? The thing in question (LEMOA) has already been done anyway. Past tense. And CISMOA is coming next, regardless of what India wants.

There is no goading left, India has already signed the LEMOA. And there are no time machines available that can undo it.

All that's left to wonder, is why India, after all these decades of claiming to be a non-aligned, independent and sovereign power, has finally decided to throw it all away?

And what is going to happen with all the Russian military equipment in India's inventory, for example.

All this is far more important in the global scheme of things than something as unchanging and boring as Sino-Indian relations.

 

[VivasvatManu]

Um, how can this discussion on an anonymous internet forum, "goad" India into doing anything? The thing in question (LEMOA) has already been done anyway. Past tense. And CISMOA is coming next, regardless of what India wants.

Exactly my point. So why make such poor attempts.

There is no goading left, India has already signed the LEMOA. And there are no time machines available that can undo it.

So far we have no reason or intention of undoing it.

All that's left to wonder, is why India, after all these decades of claiming to be a non-aligned, independent and sovereign power, has finally decided to throw it all away?

As I said earlier, we have redefined our Ambition. Its to wipe out the threat of Terror for Ever. Our Policies exist to serve us, we don't exist to server our policies.

And what is going to happen with all the Russian military equipment in India's inventory, for example.

Nothing. We will continue to use them at our pleasure.

All this is far more important in the global scheme of things than something as unchanging and boring as Sino-Indian relations.

Yes it is. ...and now You know what we want. So what next ?

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

Yes it is. ...and now You know what we want. So what next ?

What is next? Business as usual.

The LEMOA can't be undone, that ship has sailed. India can't refuse the CISMOA either, they will be forced to sign it eventually. And it's a slippery slope all the way to the bottom.

 

[VivasvatManu]

What is next? Business as usual.

The LEMOA can't be undone, that ship has sailed. India can't refuse the CISMOA either, they will be forced to sign it eventually. And it's a slippery slope all the way to the bottom.

I am not asking what India should do, I am asking what China wants to do.

 

[footmarks]

Americans are masters of the art of war indeed, not only did they get you to give up your sovereignty, but they also convinced you that you somehow "won", when even Pakistan outright refused to sign the LEMOA because they didn't want to give up their sovereignty.

That (underlined and bold part) is quite insulting, berating pakistan as some second grade colony.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

I am not asking what India should do, I am asking what China wants to do.

Like I said, business as usual.

We've been contained on all sides by both enemy superpowers (USA and USSR) and their vassals for the past half century. Not just during the Cold War either. It's nothing particularly new or concerning, just the same as before.

That (underlined and bold part) is quite insulting, berating pakistan as some second grade colony.

In fact it has always been the Indian members who have accused Pakistan of "selling out" to the US military.

But India just leapfrogged them straight into signing the LEMOA, something that Pakistan never did. Don't you think that is very ironic?

 

[Nilgiri]

But India just leapfrogged them straight into signing the LEMOA, something that Pakistan never did. Don't you think that is very ironic?

The US never reciprocated an offer for Pakistan for its forces to use US bases and logistics worldwide in exchange....it was always dictation of one way use.

Thus LEMOA or something like it was never offered to Pakistan.....ever. So its a moot point bringing up a comparison with Pakistan here.

 

[footmarks]

Like I said, business as usual.

We've been contained on all sides by both enemy superpowers (USA and USSR) and their vassals for the past half century. Not just during the Cold War either. It's nothing particularly new or concerning, just the same as before.



In fact it has always been the Indian members who have accused Pakistan of "selling out" to the US military.

But India just leapfrogged them straight into signing the LEMOA, something that Pakistan never did. Don't you think that is very ironic?

That doesn't negate the fact that you, the iron brother, also see pakistan as lowly nation ( as reflected in your post that I quoted).

And I know, english is not your native language, so you may find it difficult to understand (sorry if not the case), but using bases for refuelling and operating out of bases are two entirely different things. It is like saying, since I bought a chinese phone, i own the company now.