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India and tthe Raffalle : Anatomy of a Bad Deal

The Typhoon is hands down a comparable fighter with Rafale........A deal with Typhoon would give our domestic industry a much needed boost which I was hoping for to eventually wean away us away from our disastrous dependence of foreign weapons........Its a no brainer but the French are a crafty lot......just like many Indian politicos....who by the way wont even pass any Lok Pal resolutions.....so fuk them..

Don't buy into this BS. It is clear now the Rafale is by far the better platform for the IAF that fits their needs perfectly. Had IAF gone for EFT future upgrades would be uncertain and it would take years before the EFT could compete with the all-round performance of the EFT. Look at EVERY compettion the Rafale and EFT have gone against each other, the Rafale wins in almost every parameter (see Swiss report for clarity).


Talking of crafty, it is BAE/EADS "crafty" dealings that are the only reason it has won any orders beyond partner nations and a major reason the Rafale has failed to score an order uptil now. Look at Saudi EFT for reference- textbook dodgy dealing.


The IAF is a thoroughly professional force who is more than capable of identifying what they want, getting this down on paper then matching a plane on offer to it to these needs. There is a reason the MMRCA selection process by IAF is in the process of being patented and many nations conducting similar evaluations are crying out for IAF help. At every stage of the MMRCA process technical parameters have been the key decider, nothing more this is clear. If it was political clout biased then the US/Russia would have won easily.
 
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+We saw the reponse when EFT won-this is an extension of this. Never a fair analysis given by these guys-purely slander of other product and not focusing on positives of their product!!
 
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I agree with the premise. The Rafale will not help India in the slightest bit militarily. However, you can make an argument for the transfer of aerospace technology.

Anyway, I thought the author would argue that the J-20 Mighty Dragon "bad boy" will be ready in six years and a non-stealth Indian fighter is pointless against such an adversary. He should have argued for a completely re-designed T-50/Pak-Fa or the import of F-35s (which can also be studied for reverse-engineering purposes).

6zPw7.jpg

65th test flight of China's J-20 stealth fighter. (Sourced from Xinhuanet: 65th test flight of China's stealth fighter J-20 - Xinhua | English.news.cn). The J-20 Mighty Dragon "bad boy" will render the Rafale useless.
 
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J-20? Seriously, this Obese Fat Box?
ap_china_j20_stealth_fighter_ll_110509_wg.jpg

What are its specs for you to be making these inferences?
 
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I agree with the premise. The Rafale will not help India in the slightest bit militarily. However, you can make an argument for the transfer of aerospace technology.

Anyway, I thought the author would argue that the J-20 Mighty Dragon "bad boy" will be ready in six years and a non-stealth Indian fighter is pointless against such an adversary. He should have argued for a completely re-designed T-50/Pak-Fa or the import of F-35s (which can also be studied for reverse-engineering purposes).

6zPw7.jpg

65th test flight of China's J-20 stealth fighter. (Sourced from Xinhuanet: 65th test flight of China's stealth fighter J-20 - Xinhua | English.news.cn). The J-20 Mighty Dragon "fat boy" will render the Rafale useless.
The J-20 Mighty Dragon "fat boy" will render the Rafale useless
Really? How so? What supa-dupa technology does J-20 have to render Rafale useless?
 
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Rafale is best fighter aircraft selected by India… and I believe as SU-30MKI, this will also be a backbone for the Indian Air Force…As I got to know that Indians are planning to update Rafale with different equipment from Israle and with Indian computer…

Paid agents of euro-fighter very active these days, the IAF had made the decision and they are more competent than any tom dick and harry.

Even I don agree with this Article.
 
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At clueless Indians, J-20 is a stealth fighter. Rafale isn't.

The Japanese recently chose to buy F-35s. The logic is simple. Non-stealth fighters are useless against the PLAAF. How come the Indian government isn't as smart as the Japanese? (See Japan, U.S. may Sign F-35 Purchase Contract Next Month)

Why are you buying old last-generation non-stealth fighters for potential combat against an enemy with stealth fighters (which will be inducted around 2018)?

See citations below. Satisfied now?

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Australia Air Power: J-20 is a "genuine Very Low Observable design"

59dUY.jpg

J-20 Mighty Dragon is a "genuine Very Low Observable design" except for round engine nozzles, which can be fixed.

The Chengdu J-20: Peace in Our Time?

"This study has therefore established through Physical Optics simulation across nine radio-frequency bands, that no fundamental obstacles exist in the shaping design of the J-20 prototype precluding its development into a genuine Very Low Observable design.

4LFqA.jpg


Above: L-band RCS, below X-band RCS head on, both in PCSR format (M.J. Pelosi).

BGXue.jpg

Engineers and Scientists who work in ‘stealth’ (AKA ‘Low Observable’) designs have a way for explaining it to lay people: ‘Stealth’ is achieved by Shaping, Shaping, Shaping and Materials (Denys Overholser).

The F-22A is clearly well shaped for low observability above about 500 MHz, and from all important aspects. The J-20 has observed the ‘Shaping, Shaping, Shaping’ imperative, except for the axisymmetric nozzles, and some curvature of the sides that smears a strong, but very narrow specular return into something of a more observable fan. The X-35 mostly observed the ‘Shaping, Shaping, Shaping’ rule, but since then, to quote a colleague, ‘hideous lumps, bumps, humps and warts’ have appeared on the JSF to disrupt the shaping imperative, forcing excessive reliance on materials, which are at the rear-end of the path to ‘Low Observability’.

While discussing ‘rear-ends’, both the F-35 and the J-20 have large signature contributions from their jet nozzles. However, the difference is much like the proverbial ‘Ham Omelette’: the F-35 Pig is committed, but the J-20 Chicken is a participant. If the Chinese decide that rear sector Low Observability is tactically and strategically important, they are at the design stage where they can copy the F-22A nozzle design for the production configuration of the J-20."

[Note: Thank you to HouShanghai and 蓝胖 for the picture.]

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French Rafale is a very non-stealthy 4th generation fighter

gWYVR.jpg

Mr. Somnath picked a terrible example in the French Rafale when he attempted to illustrate a perceived deficiency in the J-20 Mighty Dragon canard design. The French Rafale is not to be emulated in any way in the design of a 5th generation stealth fighter. The round shielding to hide the canard gap is far less stealthy than the J-20 canard elegant back-end to deflect radar.

In this photograph of the French Rafale, I have incompletely labeled only 17 non-stealth features. The actual list is at least 21 non-stealth features. For example, the round engine nozzles, non-canted vertical stabilizer, non-saw toothed wheel bay doors, and lack of continuous curvature for the fuselage behind the cockpit are additional French Rafale non-stealth features.
 
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Guys don't reply to MArtian2. That poor soul has been debunked enough times on J-20 threads.
 
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One more distinction.. J 20 is not in service.. Rafale is.. :)

Hate to break it to you, you're not receiving delivery of Rafales anytime soon. It will be years before India receives its first squadron. You're still negotiating, remember?

Guys don't reply to MArtian2. That poor soul has been debunked enough times on J-20 threads.

You're kidding me. I scare you guys that much?

I'm just asking a simple question. Why is India purchasing a non-stealth fighter for a potential war against an enemy with stealth fighter technology?
 
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Hate to break it to you, you're not receiving delivery of Rafales anytime soon. It will be years before India receives its first squadron. You're still negotiating, remember?

And how does that change the fact that J 20 is not in service and Rafale is ?
 
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And how does that change the fact that J 20 is not in service and Rafale is ?

This is my last reply, because I'm not getting through to you.

1. The J-20 Mighty Dragon stealth fighter has had over 65 flight tests. It will be inducted around 2018.

2. Rafale is in service with the French Air Force. The French Air Force will never come into combat with the PLAAF.

3. India is negotiating the specific terms for the purchase of 126 French Rafales. The contract is expected to be finalized in about a year (2013).

4. By the time India receives Rafales, it will be pretty close to 2018.

5. Indian planes remain in service for decades (see Flying Coffins/Indian MiG-21s). Hence, why is India spending billions of dollars to deploy a fighter that will be in service for decades against the J-20 Mighty Dragon stealth fighter? This is contrary to common sense. You don't see the Japanese buying old fourth-generation non-stealth fighters, do you?

Hmmm...I wonder why the Japanese are buying fifth-generation fighters. Drum roll please...it's because the Japanese are arming themselves against the PLAAF. Ta dah!
 
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Hate to break it to you, you're not receiving delivery of Rafales anytime soon. It will be years before India receives its first squadron. You're still negotiating, remember?



You're kidding me. I scare you guys that much?

I'm just asking a simple question. Why is India purchasing a non-stealth fighter for a potential war against an enemy with stealth fighter technology?

Coz ..We don consider China Item at all as enemy....as simple as that.
 
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Eurofighter becomes a synergistic ally
of the Sukhoi. It has considerable
range so as to escort the Sukhois, its
electronic package provides significant
cover – that is to say western electronic superiority combined with the
sheer “grunt” of Russian designs.


Why Su30Mki Needs escorts ?
What Electronic Superiority EFT Gives Over Rafale ?
I'll Keep that "Considerable Range" Point Aside.
 
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