India and Israel planned to bomb Pakistani nuclear facilities

[Rashid Mahmood]

Old news.

 

[Hellfire]

I will into that if some credible source is available but as per my current knowledge, is that Israeli F-16 were actually present on the forward airbases of India but I know that India was not too keen since they know that the retaliation would be on India most likely and thus Israel was scapegoating India for its designs....

Bold portion is totally incorrect. Figment of imagination. PM Morarji Desai was approached by Israel in 1977 to attack Kahuta reactor. The then GoI refused it as India was not keen on a wider war due to the post-1974 (Nuclear Test and the effective use of NPT to 'whip' India by using the supply of nuclear fuel to TAPS) and post-Nixon era, wherein Pakistan was again given overt support by US.

They instead suggested Israel to carry out a strike if they wanted from their own soil. In 1982-83 again an offer was made, but this time US clearly stopped the idea in nascent stage with Israel. This was pre-dominantly due to the centrality of Pakistan in the Afghanistan Campaign against the Soviets. One has to recall that both India and Pakistan signed an agreement in 1985 not to attack each other's nuclear facilities. One can be sardonic and attribute it to acquisition of F-16s compelling India or whatever, that is figment of fanboy imagination. The issue was that there was a mutual recognition of the immense destruction of this act and pragmatism.

Unlike what many of our compatriots from sub-continent would like to portray, and amongst all the jingoism, both the countries have very mature foreign policy especially with regards to each other.

An interesting read:

https://archive.org/stream/unitedstatespoli00cock/unitedstatespoli00cock_djvu.txt

Just off topic...now uncle sam is scapegoating India against China....Why does India allow it to be used like that? Perhaps for some benefits and I guess Israel would have promised similar benefits at that time.

Au contraire, I would suggest you to read the Chinese philosophy of governance and management of international relations historically.

The Chinese have historically considered themselves the cradle of civilisation for thousands of years. While other countries were named after ethnic groups or geographical landmarks, China called itself zhongguo—the “Middle Kingdom” or the “Central Country.” Indeed, there is a very fine quality of the Chinese as people and as a civilisation, which was shared by India too, that of absorbing all those who actually invaded China and subsequently absorbing them into the Chinese culture and system of values. They have a very firm and perpetual belief system in the uniqueness of their civilisation as a whole.

In earlier days it supported a conception of the Emperor as a figure of universal consequence, presiding over tian xia, or “All Under Heaven” (you might have seen this concept in Jet Li's movie The Hero). This concept was further unique in the sense that the Chinese, after these people were absorbed, considered the original territory that they hailed from, to be a part of China! (It is here that the present Sino-Russian treaty is going to be an issue a couple of decades from now; Siberia and outer Mongolia was under the Chinese control till mid-1800s when Russia, in the garb of being supportive of China in face of British led aggression, simply annexed these territories)

Not the least exceptional aspect of Chinese culture is that these values were essentially secular in nature. At the time when Hinduism and Buddhism appeared in Indian culture stressing contemplation and inner peace, and monotheism was proclaimed by the Jewish—and, later, Christian and Islamic—prophets with an evocation of a life after death, China produced no religious themes in the Western sense at all.

The Chinese never generated a myth of any kind of cosmic creation.Their universe was created by the Chinese themselves, whose values, even when declared of universal applicability, were conceived of as Chinese in origin (Chinese by itself being a very loose term if you analyse the history). The predominant values of Chinese society were derived from the prescriptions of an ancient philosopher Kong Fu-zi (or “Confucius”), indeed the influence of the same can still be seen in China.

Further, the Chinese had a very simple philosophy of never seeking any confrontation with any nation. They still do not seek any confrontation if you see their method of management of International Relations. Their concept can be akin to their game Wei Qi or as Japanese call it "Go". The game, unlike chess where you have winners and losers being decided by outright killing of each others pieces with some manoeuvres, does not involve anything more than deftness in manoeuvre to attain "strategic" victory without actual fighting. One can say a fine blend of Wei Qi and Sun Tzu to simplify things.

It has relied on a combination of strategic thinking and manoeuvring coupled to the projection of a soft power and diplomacy (evident in Africa and most of South-East Asia and Pakistan upto Central Asian Republics including Russia). Through trade incentives and skilful use of political theatre, China coaxed neighbouring countries/kingdoms into observing the norms of Chinese centrality while projecting an image of awesome “majesty” to deter potential invaders from testing China’s strength. Its goal was not to conquer and subjugate the barbarians but to “rule [them] with a loose rein” (ji mi). For those who would not fall in line with the Chinese perspective of things/issues, China would exploit divisions among them, famously “using barbarians to check barbarians” and, when necessary, “using barbarians to attack barbarians”

This is where, the Sino-Pak relationship has it’s roots. If you trace the history of the Sino-Pak Border Agreement, you will find this principle fitting neatly into the overall picture as described above.

If you look at the Sino-Indian War of 1962 specifically, the Chinese created conditions wherein Nehru resorted to a forward policy which resulted in Chinese specifically only targeting the Indian position across MacMahon Line in the first clash of 1962.

Pertinent to note is the fact that in 1962 Mao had told his commanders that China had previously fought “one and a half” wars with India (here people will try and object that India never existed, a fallacy of less enlightened minds; the Chinese recorded existence of the nation of India known as Tianzhu or Shendu). This was something wherein it indicated that the Communist Party of China was not rampant in it’s efforts to re-write the history and ignore their history. Rather, it was to define the Chinese policy under the Communist.

Beijing could draw operational lessons from each of the aforementioned conflicts. The first war had occurred over 1,300 years earlier, during the Tang Dynasty (618–907), when China dispatched troops to support an Indian kingdom against an illegitimate and aggressive rival. After China’s intervention, the two countries had enjoyed centuries of flourishing religious and economic exchange. The lesson learned from the ancient campaign, as Mao described it, was that China and India were not doomed to perpetual enmity. They could enjoy a long period of peace again, but to do so, China had to use force to “knock” India back “to the negotiating table.” The “half war,” in Mao’s mind, had taken place seven hundred years later, when the Mongol ruler Timurlane sacked Delhi. (Mao reasoned that since Mongolia and China were then part of the same political entity, this was a “half” Sino-Indian war.) Timurlane had won a significant victory, but once in India his army had killed over 100,000 prisoners. This time, Mao enjoined his Chinese forces to be “restrained and principled.”

So, in a nutshell, what India is doing, is trying to bolster itself on a dual front. The narrative above is something that I could pen in a hurried manner. Hope this does give a bit of a glimpse into Chinese thinking as can be made out.


@nair @Joe Shearer

Anything you would like to add here?

 

[Joe Shearer]

I will into that if some credible source is available but as per my current knowledge, is that Israeli F-16 were actually present on the forward airbases of India but I know that India was not too keen since they know that the retaliation would be on India most likely and thus Israel was scapegoating India for its designs....

Just off topic...now uncle sam is scapegoating India against China....Why does India allow it to be used like that? Perhaps for some benefits and I guess Israel would have promised similar benefits at that time.

No foreign aircraft have ever in the history of independent India been parked on Indian airfields preparatory to an air strike. Never ever. Other than US planes stopping in transit to Afghanistan, with event by event permission taken in advance.

I will into that if some credible source is available but as per my current knowledge, is that Israeli F-16 were actually present on the forward airbases of India but I know that India was not too keen since they know that the retaliation would be on India most likely and thus Israel was scapegoating India for its designs....

Just off topic...now uncle sam is scapegoating India against China....Why does India allow it to be used like that? Perhaps for some benefits and I guess Israel would have promised similar benefits at that time.

What does that mean?

 

[Indo-Pak]

Propaganda.. its an old chest thumping propaganda..

When India and Pak are adversary, its evident that they will plan to stop each other from getting weapons..

don't u think India lobby in west to hold pakistani weapon?
and Pakistani lobby try to disadvantage india??

 

[coffee_cup]

One has to recall that both India and Pakistan signed an agreement in 1985 not to attack each other's nuclear facilities. One can be sardonic and attribute it to acquisition of F-16s compelling India or whatever, that is figment of fanboy imagination. The issue was that there was a mutual recognition of the immense destruction of this act and pragmatism.

Small correction for bold part: "Verbally agreed upon" in 1985, signed in 1988 and ratified in 1991/92.

And both sides have their own versions with bits that suit their narratives, you have yours and we have ours.

Truth lies somewhere in between.

 

[war&peace]

And the Americans had a plan to seize Saudi Oil Fields.

Algeria, land of a million martyrs, has relations with the French.

America supported Panama independence from Columbia.

France support American independence from the UK.

Italy back-stabbed Germany & Austria during WW1.

The List goes on bro.

It's common knowledge the US gave Pakistan the intel, there's no harm in admitting it.

I did not claim otherwise in my post..

 

[Guerrero]

They did indeed had planned and Pakistan found out about it. As a result, the then Pakistan's Chief of the Army Staff Retired General Aslam Baig (if I remember it correctly) said to the Indians, no matter who attacks Pakistani nuclear facilities, Pakistan will hit India.

Plan was then cancelled.

lmao

 

[YeBeWarned]

First of all, you don't need to be afraid of me...I don't get into personal insults and attack especially if someone is serious and I see you as a serious poster / member and I respect your opinion and on some points we might have likelihood of the possibility of agreement to some extent though it may be in the limit tending to zero. But since you have exaggerated and disregarded the facts that's why I have to answer to your post so that no one gets misled

Glad that you are a sane poster which is hard to find on PDF these days to have good conversation with ..
for the record i did not Exaggerated anything but it was what i think and my own PERSONAL Observation with respect to my limited knowledge ..

I don't know what you have been taught in your schools but at least I was not taught to hate Israel to the extent of wiping it out from the face of the Earth..but I'm not an expert on Pakistani education system...I just attended school in Pakistan till grade 4.

I haven't been taught anything about Jews anyway , when i was in school i care less for Jews and International politics but what my concern was that some how my crush take the seat right behind me .. but lets admit that almost 60% of Pakistani Population is some way hate the Existence of Israel and Jews and most of them don't even know why we hate them except what they understand from reading Quran and thing they be taught by their Madarsas teachers ..
you have to admit that our society have a significant amount of hate against the Jews and Israel reason can differ ..

No we are not following KSA rather KSA has good relations, albeit covert, with Israel and if we are following anyone...that will be Iran...But I can see you will nodding your head in negative...and I agree with you it is not Iran..we are not following them...These are Pakistan's own principles and wishes of the people and many have tried in past especially Mushy and he was met with so much friction from the people of Pakistan that he had to give up the plan immediately. So the Mullah you are talking about is factually the vast majority of this nation and I think you believe in democracy...if not then you should consider relocation / migration

well KSA does enjoy a relationship but they never make it official , and you guess it right Public reaction and fear .. not because they are actually following the lead of Prophet or Allah ..I don't want to bring Iran into this we can discuss it on some other thread .. I am sorry to say but Pakistani's never have their own Principles except for Quaid-e-Azam Vision rest is just we follow the lead someone , now what you say about Mushy was right , and i would not hesitate to say that if someone from our Army or Establishment have some negative reactions over this than it was very stupid and unprofessional reaction. Pakistan is not a Banana state we must have relations with everyone .. you can that when we need spare part from Israel we did talk to them and when we don't we curse behind their backs .. that is a bit hypocritical . My believe matters less here when it comes how this country must Govern itself .. Lots of People want Shariah in Pakistan but i would rather move to some other country than living under Shariah when i know it wont even close to what Shariah really is ..

Participation of Pakistani pilots in Arab-Israel war was not a state policy but voluntary and only limited to defending the airspace of Arab countries and not attacking Israel....so get that fact right....Google it and you will be able to watch the interviews of those pilots on youtube.

Ok fair enough.. but don't you think it was a unprofessional move by our Pilots to poke their nose into other's matters and war ? or we can say they have that same Religious Theology somewhere back in their minds that we must Fight the Jews ? Lets just not blame the Jews here , lets not Forget that Palestinian people living in US , and west they willingly sell their Land and property to Jews where Settlements been created . right now i don't have the link but anyone who knows the History of the land can help you , or when i get time i will search and post it for you ..
so Either its for Defending or Assaulting Pakistani entering in other war is not a suitable option .. if those pilots were Professional than why not today our Pilots are taking active part in Arab wars ? and why not we Send our Army to Protect the Holy land ? were these Pilots and Forces Professionals were better Muslim than we have today ?? NO
what ever our pilots did was on their own , so i wont comment on that, but from my Side i would not recommend it cause we have see how it turn out when you poke your nose into others wars .

You cannot possibly liken the creation of Pakistan with Israel's as the former was created through a political struggle for the Muslims of Indian subcontinent...who were the native people of subcontinent or living for centuries.

Lets not get into that Debate cause before that , Greek rules the Land ... and what if Today Persians claim their right to rule the land they once have ? lets not forget we Muslims also were invading force at some Stage .. and Don't Indian Side Muslims Migrated to Pakistan ? I am one of them

Furthermore, Israel has an expansionist agenda and that is very clear and their most fundamental policy..to create a greater Israel as per their pre-historic state of King Solomon and David and they won't be content until they achieve that.

Why you care for what their Agenda is ? did we all not have such Agenda's ? Are you not Waiting for Mehdi to come and State the Holy Wars to let Islam Dominate the world ? so why are you so critics about their Expansions when you believe in expansion by series of Wars which is Foretold by our Prophet ?
What my point is , That we all have some sort of Agenda and it is the rule of the world that who ever holds the power suppress the Weak , Take lands and later we just rewrite the History as we want it .. Our mostly Beloved Rahidun Caliphate were invading force once when they attack Byzentine and Persian Empire for the expansion of Islam .. now just because you and other 1.5 billion Muslims think Islam is only true Religion does not mean other don't feel the same for their own faith and can not have some Expansion plans .. Even Hindu's are waiting for some Sort of higher Deity ..

Now their plan to attack Pakistan's nuclear plant was not limited to some whiteboard simulation....no man...they factually executed and Israeli fighter-jets had arrived at Indian airbases but it was foiled due to some friendly country shared intel with Pakistan and then Pakistan responded and conveyed the message of dire consequences to both India and Israel through proper channels and thus putting an end to lunacy....perhaps you know or not that Israel successfully destroyed Iraq's nuclear plant...I would say it was nothing short of divine intervention that Pakistan's nuclear program has survived...

You did not carefully read what i wrote did you ? I clearly mentioned that so many countries have plans to Destroy or break you in Past , or should i post the MAP released by American " Cheetha " where he divided Pakistan into Several independent States ? now we still have Diplomatic ties with America Don't we ? American give a direct threat to Pakistan to bomb us and yet we have their Consulates and Embassy ? so why can't we have same with Israel ? i never heard some Statement from Israel to break Pakistan or threat to Nukes us ? and what about India ? they are trying their luck for 7 decades now but we still make trade with them , give them title of Most favorite nation .. yet we have Likes of Kulbhoshan Yadev roaming in Baluchistan ..
What matter is that they did not attack you .. planning and attacking are two different things to me at least .
I don't Consider Planning as a real Attack on me or my Nation .. its like i go to a Police Office and file an FIR against someone by claiming that certain man is just planning to Kill me from like 70 years yet he never say or try anything ..

In the past, when Muslims conquered Jerusalem, they gave a general amnesty and especially protected Jews against the crusaders....I don't know what will they do in future but I know exactly what they did in the past for sure.

What they did in Past is Past .. and it now buried deep in the Bodies of Innocent who died in the hands of Those invading forces who Capture the holy Land, I won't be jumping on what Hazart Omar ibn Khattab did with Jews/Christians cause that was the past , the world move and we are still living in Past ..
and lets be Vivd about the truth , we both know when we get Power what we will be doing with the Jews , and the Jews are doing the same with Muslims today .. they have the power today , " Jis ki lathi , us ki benhs " .

And would you like to elaborate how Pakistan's recognition of Israel with improve the peace in the region...since I don't see Pakistan and Israel fighting with each other so I need some clear evidence to understand your point...

I will reply for this bold part later cause i have to go for now .. but i will get back to you on this .

Have a Great day, and by the way I am not a Senior member .. just a newbie

Regards .

 

[Leviza]

It tells us that India had seriously considered attacking Kahuta three decades ago but chose not to, mainly due to the fears of a retaliatory Pakistani strike on Trombay and the danger of an isolated strike escalating into a full-blown war.

This tells the story of Pakistan armed forces, they are always prepared ...

 

[Qutb-ud-din Aybak]

pakistan threatened to lay nuclear waste on israel nuclear plant in case they carried attack.

 

[CorporateAffairs]

Thread title

 

[Isotope]

Radchenko says that documents in the Hungarian archives show that the Soviets had shared with the Hungarians India’s plans to attack Kahuta.



Last week, the US State department declassified its top-secret documents from 1984-85 which focus on the Pakistani nuclear programme. The CIA analysis, and the talking points for the US Ambassador to Islamabad while handing over President Ronald Reagan’s letter to General Zia-ul Haq, show that the US warned Pakistan about an Indian military attack on the Pakistani nuclear reactor at Kahuta.

But the Americans were not alone in anticipating an Indian attack. Prof Rajesh Rajagopalan of JNU recently pointed to The End of the Cold War and the Third World: New Perspectives on Regional Conflict, a book by Sergey Radchenko and Artemy M. Kalinovsky based on the declassified documents of the Eastern Block. Radchenko says that documents in the Hungarian archives show that the Soviets had shared with the Hungarians India’s plans to attack Kahuta.

In his book, India’s Nuclear Policy —1964-98: A Personal Recollection, K Subrahmanyam recollected that the Indian proposal to Pakistan for non-attack on each other’s nuclear facilities, which he suggested to Rajiv Gandhi, was an outcome of such rumours in the Western media. Although the ‘Agreement on the Non-Attack of Nuclear Facilities between Indian and Pakistan’ was first verbally agreed upon in 1985, it was formally signed in 1988 and ratified in 1991. Since 1992, India and Pakistan have been exchanging the list of their nuclear facilities on January 1 every year.



But how close was India to attacking Kahuta in the 1980s? The first time India is believed to have considered such an attack is in 1981. The idea obviously originated from the daring Israeli attack of June 7, 1981, that destroyed the under-construction Iraqi nuclear reactor at Osirak. Eight F-16s of the Israeli Air Force flew more than 600 miles in the skies of three enemy nations to destroy the target and returned unscathed.

In 1996, WPS Sidhu, senior fellow for foreign policy at Brookings India, was the first to state that after the induction of Jaguars, Indian Air Force (IAF) had conducted a brief study in June 1981 on the feasibility of attacking Kahuta. The study concluded that India could “attack and neutralise” Kahuta but feared that such an attack would result in a full-blown war between India and Pakistan. This was besides the concerns that an Indian attack will beget an immediate retaliatory — some say, even pre-emptive — Pakistani air strike on Indian nuclear facilities.

In their book, Deception: Pakistan, the United States and the Global Nuclear Conspiracy, Adrian Levy and Catherine Scott-Clark claim that Indian military officials secretly travelled to Israel in February 1983 to buy electronic warfare equipment to neutralise Kahuta’s air defences. Israel reportedly also provided India with technical details of the F-16 aircraft in exchange for Indians providing them some details about the MiG-23 aircraft. In mid- to late-1983, according to strategic affairs expert Bharat Karnad, Indira Gandhi asked the IAF once again to plan for an air strike on Kahuta.

The mission was cancelled after Pakistani nuclear scientist Munir Ahmed Khan met Indian Atomic Energy Commission chief-designate Raja Ramanna at an international meet in Vienna and threatened a retaliatory strike on Bhabha Atomic Research Centre at Trombay.

The next time India is believed to have seriously considered attacking Kahuta was in September-October 1984. Details of the Pakistani nuclear programme crossing the weaponisation enrichment threshold had then begun to emerge. As seen from documents declassified last week, on September 16, 1984, US Ambassador Dean Hinton told Zia that if the US were to see signs that India was preparing for an attack, they would notify Pakistan immediately.

On September 22, a reliable source from a foreign country — later assumed to be the CIA Deputy Director — reported to the Pakistani top brass that there was the possibility of an Indian air strike. The same day, ABC television also reported that a preemptive Indian attack on Pakistani nuclear facilities was imminent, which was based on a briefing made by the CIA to a US Senate intelligence subcommittee.

But India did not go ahead with its plans to attack Kahuta because the element of surprise was lost. According to Subrahmanyam, an increase in air defences around Kahuta was “proof, if any more were needed, that our covert intentions to hit Kahuta were not secret anymore”.

It has also been rumoured that Israeli air force was part of the plans to attack Kahuta in 1984 because it did not want to see an “Islamic Bomb” developed by Pakistan. Israel was supposed to lead this attack and not merely play the role of advising the IAF. Bharat Karnad has written that Israeli aircraft were to be staged from Jamnagar airfield in Gujarat, refuel at a satellite airfield in North India and track the Himalayas to avoid early radar detection, but Indira Gandhi eventually vetoed the idea. Levy and Scott-Clark though claim that Indira Gandhi had signed off on the Israeli-led operation in March 1984 but backed off after the US state department warned India “the US will be responsive if India persists”.

Conversations with some people associated with the IAF in the early 1980s support the idea of an Israeli connection to Indian plans to attack Kahuta. It tells us that India had seriously considered attacking Kahuta three decades ago but chose not to, mainly due to the fears of a retaliatory Pakistani strike on Trombay and the danger of an isolated strike escalating into a full-blown war.


http://indianexpress.com/article/ex...litary-attack-on-a-pakistani-nuclear-reactor/

Back then, America used to be Pakistan's well wisher.

 

[Isotope]

Indian Establishment policy is being always matured and Indian Military planners and intelligence agencies do have the full knowledge about the fall out.

Indian intelligence agencies were well aware about the Pakistani Nuclear programme and who were assisting the Pakistan Nuclear Programme. During the 80's , Afghanistan war was going on and even Iran-iraq war and the whole region was in choas and it was the period of the cold war. Israelis were more to end the India's relations with the traditional Arab world.

I am not sure about the maturity part of the Indian establishment. After all they were diligently working on it.

The attack would have definitely been carried out by these so called mature people if the cat was not out of the bag. in return, Pakistan would have retaliated back with full force. After triggering a full scale war between the two countries, Israelis would have safely flown back to their safe homes in far way Middle East without a single scratch on them, while we would have annihilated each other.

 

[Hindustani78]

I am not sure about the maturity part of the Indian establishment. After all they were diligently working on it.

The attack would have definitely been carried out by these so called mature people if the cat was not out of the bag. in return, Pakistan would have retaliated back with full force. After triggering a full scale war between the two countries, Israelis would have safely flown back to their safe homes in far way Middle East without a single scratch on them, while we would have annihilated each other.

Cant you see the maturity shown by the Indian military even during that time ?

Quam , if this term you would have understand then you would have not ask me this.

Mao mamu kay bhanje aur bhatije . Woh hum Hindustanis nahi hai.

 

[Sine Nomine]

Population is some way hate the Existence of Israel and Jews and most of them don't even know why we hate them except what they understand from reading Quran and thing they be taught by their Madarsas teachers ..

Well If you have gone through chapter's of Quran,you won't have made that lame claim that it tought us to hate jews,before balfour declaration these jews were living in ottoman empire and flourished alot at same time they were treated in worst way in Europe.We hate jews not because they are jews because we can see the chaos that area has witnessed after 1948.And you well know why that area is in chaos.