India - A sacred geography bound by Dharma

[Tshering22]

Based on the above clearly identifiable differences, I have stated earlier and claim that Pakistan is the scion of and holder of the cradle of Indus Valley Civilization and not India.

And yet you're Arabized and consider yourself middle eastern rather than believe in your ancient faith which was your foundation.

 

[Wickerman]

Based on the above clearly identifiable differences, I have stated earlier and claim that Pakistan is the scion of and holder of the cradle of Indus Valley Civilization and not India.

I read your points, but I do not understand how you can make the claim that Pakistanis today are descendants or have roots in the Indus Valley Civilization, based on DIFFERENCES that you perceive in history, rather than presenting cast iron PROOF. Differences are merely anomalies that you perceive, but they dont prove anything.

Today , Pakistan or India cannot directly lay claim to the IVC. Many Pakistanis have roots in India and many Indians in Pakistan. Over the years people have migrated far and wide, there have been invasions, etc., So today, any descendants of this civilization, if at all such unique ethnic groups exist, are distributed and they are not concentrated IN Pakistan. At best this history can only be shared. Of course, you can make the claim and state that IVC is yours, but it doenst make it yours, because it isnt true.

 

[Ticker]

I read your points, but I do not understand how you can make the claim that Pakistanis today are descendants or have roots in the Indus Valley Civilization, based on DIFFERENCES that you perceive in history, rather than presenting cast iron PROOF. Differences are merely anomalies that you perceive, but they dont prove anything.

Today , Pakistan or India cannot directly lay claim to the IVC. Many Pakistanis have roots in India and many Indians in Pakistan. Over the years people have migrated far and wide, there have been invasions, etc., So today, any descendants of this civilization, if at all such unique ethnic groups exist, are distributed and they are not concentrated IN Pakistan. At best this history can only be shared. Of course, you can make the claim and state that IVC is yours, but it doenst make it yours, because it isnt true.

I am sorry, there are many aspects that I have to disagree with you. These are historical perspectives as laid out by many historians, although one may find different historical hues from differing historians.

To say that Harappan people just vanished out of thin air and no trace of them has been left is factually wrong. Their legacy also remains in many forms even to this day.

After 1900 BC there were no longer references to Meluhha in Mesopotamian writings, and no Indus seals are found in Mesopotamia after that date. Whatever the reasons of their diminishing trade – may it be changing course of river, drought, Aryan invasion, decease, earthquakes or whatever, the fact remains that their cities shrank in the second millennium BC, yes, but people still lived in places like Harappa long after that.

The continuing prosperity of the bigger cities, like Harappa and Mohenjo-Daro, may have made them grow too large and unwieldy to administer, and so groups may have split off into smaller settlements. But those settlements were held together by their common culture. Perhaps the dispersal was a way of providing flexibility to deal with the reasons I explained above.

Some of the aspects that we can still trace their legacy to are the commerce routes they developed. Traders from the highlands of Pakistan’s Baluchistan and northern Afghanistan brought in copper, tin and lapis lazuli. The Makran and southern coasts of Pakistan provided decorative shells. Timber was floated down the rivers from the Himalayas and gold from southern Central Asia. Skilled Harappan artisans and specialized craftsmen turned such raw materials into useful and beautiful products for regional distribution and—as finds elsewhere have shown—for export by land and sea to Mesopotamia, Persia and Central Asia.

“The southern states controlled the sea trade, just as Karachi does today. Ships from Meluhha [the Mesopotamian name for the Harappan nation] regularly sailed from Lothal near modern-day Karachi, Pakistan for the ports of Babylon.” And they evidently made stops all along the way, as I mentioned earlier that Indus River seals have been found in Oman, Abu Dhabi and Bahrain as well.

The modern city of Peshawar lies on what is thought to have been one of the Harappans’ main overland trade routes. That route is now a major highway that constitutes the eastern approach to the Khyber Pass and links the northwestern Indus Plain to the highlands of Afghanistan and Central Asia. An old branch of the route runs from Peshawar south into rugged tribal territory, through the modern towns of Pakistan’s Kohat and Bannu and the foothills of the Pakistan’s Sulaiman Mountains, and on down across the Gomal Plain to the early Harappan site of Rehman Dheri, where an important excavation was conducted from 1976 to 1980.

Hindu Aryan culture was distinctly different than the culture of the Indus Valley Civilization, which was not Hindu and yes were not Muslim either.

The IVC was mostly restricted to the valley of the Indus—however at the tail end of the civilization some of it dispersed into areas beyond the IVC.

The 3 Major IVC cities are all located in Pakistan. One in Western Pakistan, one in South and the last one approx in central Pakistan.

Current day India didn’t exist during IVC, and their religion had nothing to do with IVC, and major IVC settlements are not even located in India. However, Indians still refer to India as the “Home of Indus Valley Civilization” which is indeed surprising.

Indus Valley Civilization’s legacy is linked to Pakistan and it cannot be denied, because various peoples after their decline ruled or invaded the area.

Therefore, we the people of Pakistan rightly claim ourselves to be the scions of and holders of Indus Valley Civilization.

 

[KRAIT]

Scions of Indus Valley Civilization.

Leave it guys, don't argue with them. Discuss rich Indian traditions which have been continuing for thousands of years. Our land is land of knowledge where people used to do Yagyas for Rain, which is now done by Artificial Rainmaking using AgI, Silver Iodide, an aerosol. This is the knowledge we had and have but we don't appreciate it.

We should reclaim our knowledge and work on it.

 

[Ticker]

And yet you're Arabized and consider yourself middle eastern rather than believe in your ancient faith which was your foundation.

We are not Arabized as you Indians famously pronounce us to be. We are Muslims because our religion is Islam. Which ancient faith you are talking about. The religion of Indus Valley Civilization is not known as yet, neither their language has been deciphered so far.

The people of this ancient land were Hindus, were Buddhists and now are Muslims. For you religion is the basis of being Indian, being Dharmic or Indic. It is the people of the land who identify their identity, and thankfully the Pakistanis are proud Muslims now.

Incidentally, the advent of Islam was predicted in both Hindu and Buddhist religious scriptures, thousands of years before its advent. Therefore for me, Islam is also part of India as was predicted thousands of years ago by Hindu and Buddhist religious scriptures. Yes they did not have good words for Islam as they predicted the advent of this new religion, but this is understood as the advent of new religions have been scoffed at by earlier faiths.

You are nothing but a Gung-Tok from Sick-im. Tin Horn.

 

[KRAIT]

Oh, it is you again SH-it Head. And what do you claim your identity is - nothing but a religious hate ridden bigot. The Hindu traditions and culture which you famously pronounce to be yours and are proud of and ignorantly think that they are related to IVC are not yours at all. And because people like me challenge your false identity, you have no answer but to declare your hate and bigotry.

You can not reclaim what has not been yours in the first place. Go find out who you actually are.

In my opinion you are a Tin Horn.

Resorting to name calling and low level talks place you in bottom of the pool. What does in IVC is still in use in Pakistan ? Can you tell me the language and religion followed by IVC people ?

You can keep IVC if you want, we are talking about India and its rich history. The knowledge in our scriptures. Ayurveda to Vedic Mathematics, is still in use. You don't have any of that.

 

[Wickerman]

Indus Valley Civilization’s legacy is linked to Pakistan and it cannot be denied, because various peoples after their decline ruled or invaded the area.

Legacy in terms of geography. Yes. But not in terms of belief, culture, historical roots or ethnicity. What you are claiming for yourself is opportunistic legacy. Not true legacy. Or should I say lineage.

To say that Harappan people just vanished out of thin air and no trace of them has been left is factually wrong. Their legacy also remains in many forms even to this day.

Please quote me and tell me where I said that the Harappan people or IVC people or whoever, vanished into thin air or were wiped out? It is true those people existed, but they dont exist today as distinct ethnic groups anywhere, either in Pakistan or in India. Pinpoint them if they do and PROVE it to me that they are indeed original descendants of those civilizations and that they make up most of the Pakistani population? Unless and until present day Pakistan was closed off to international trade, migrations, invasions, colonialism etc for all of these 5000 years, you cannot prove it. That did not happen. You are talking about 5000 years earlier, and you are telling me that TODAY, Pakistanis are ALL descendants of those civilizations. What about the millions of Pakistanis that migrated from India? And what about those Indians that migrated from Pakistan? What about all the migrations of people that happened inbetween? What about populations from atleast all around the subcontinent mixing amongst themselves over time?

Therefore, we the people of Pakistan rightly claim ourselves to be the scions of and holders of Indus Valley Civilization.

And yes thanks for the History lesson. But today Pakistanis can indeed lay claim to not the Civilization, but the location of that particular civilization. Nothing more than that. Geographically Pakistan happened to be formed where those civilizations existed or started, but the inhabitants of this country, are not direct descendants of the IVC. A lot of them have roots in India. Similarly a lot of Indians have roots in Pakistan. Therefore the legacy in terms of culture,ethnicity etc is SHARED. Geographically, you do own that piece of land according to international law, so you can obviously lay claim to it.

 

[KRAIT]

^Don't waste time on him. He just hates India and everything related to India. You can't have unbiased, neutral discussion with him.

 

[Manas]

Now the secularist in particular and other indians in general would have less issues in disagreement with the views expressed in the book about the spiritual idea of india always existing over the millennia , since its written by a western lady so is the framework of our minds still smarting from colonial past .Pity.

 

[Manas]

Indic faiths like Hinduism, Buddhism or Jainism (Malhotra calls them dharmic traditions) don’t require any such zealous guarding of facts or events, since the emphasis is on embodied learning and personal experience. If all of history were, one day, to become falsified, the dharmic traditions would have no trouble rediscovering their old truths through “inner and outer engagement”, but the west would not know the meaning of what it is to be religious at all. For all of it comes from history and holy books.

French vs Taseer: Indians need to reclaim their history | Firstpost

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

can agree with u on some part.....

but this union was bound to happen as we shared the same culture

if not the britishers , some other factor wud have formed the indian union

Have to agree with u.. If not for british empire, marathas would have united the indian provinces...

 

[neokautilya2]

We are not Arabized as you Indians famously pronounce us to be. We are Muslims because our religion is Islam. Which ancient faith you are talking about. The religion of Indus Valley Civilization is not known as yet, neither their language has been deciphered so far.

The people of this ancient land were Hindus, were Buddhists and now are Muslims. For you religion is the basis of being Indian, being Dharmic or Indic. It is the people of the land who identify their identity, and thankfully the Pakistanis are proud Muslims now.

Incidentally, the advent of Islam was predicted in both Hindu and Buddhist religious scriptures, thousands of years before its advent. Therefore for me, Islam is also part of India as was predicted thousands of years ago by Hindu and Buddhist religious scriptures. Yes they did not have good words for Islam as they predicted the advent of this new religion, but this is understood as the advent of new religions have been scoffed at by earlier faiths.

You are nothing but a Gung-Tok from Sick-im. Tin Horn.

have they predicted any wrong....

so much bloodshed in the name of religion.... wat to say u better kno

 

[neokautilya2]

Have to agree with u.. If not for british empire, marathas would have united the indian provinces...

hey bro how to start a thread ...

dont kno as i am new here

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

hey bro how to start a thread ...

dont kno as i am new here

on the toolbars, click forums...
many headings will come with respective reasons for starting a thread under respective heading...
click that and click start new thread....
http://www.defence.pk/forums/
click any heading were u want to post

 

[neokautilya2]

on the toolbars, click forums...
many headings will come with respective reasons for starting a thread under respective heading...
click that and click start new thread....
http://www.defence.pk/forums/
click any heading were u want to post

thanks got it bro