India a Country of Hindus and of Their Descendants - Dr. Swamy

[Mr.S.Singh]

LOL..nope.No country on earth or even a group of country can do that.If it could be done,other rivals like US and co would have long done it.You guys talk of getting more expensive imports as if India is a rich country.Laughable at best...particularly considering that China can't be replaced.
Sure it would be full fledged nuke war.First you say..a little pieceof land is not worth it and now u say its total war if the chinese do so..make up your mind will you?
BTW,Indian state was ready to give up NE if the Chines invaded.Indians being Indians would simply roll over and take it silently just like they always have done.Case in point-pakistan.
Exactly the point that Burma having a border with India means India can influence it.Capturing NE will mean forcing urma into the chinese camp completely..for the burmese will have no choice if that happens.Again,the Chinese risk armageddon with actual nuclear powers like US just for some rocks in east asia and you say they will give up on NE and AP in particular,when faced with an inferior nation like India?what makes you think Indian establishment will risk total annihilation for NE.They will cripple china but China will wipe out India..or mainland India and its inhabitants off the face of earth.You are smoking some good stuff I tell you
The whole gist of your replies is ..
"Nope.nope..it ain't real..at least we will pretend it isn't..in the hope it isn't"

sir you are one whinny *** who are determined on IF's and But's

expensive imports from thailand ?? 40-50% of imports of automobile products come from thailand
Look at your USB sometimes it chances are it might.

your whimps and fancies of IF's and but's doesn't move world diplomacy nor dictates nations interest
India would use force because
A) its indian territory
b) us won't use because japan isnt their territory
its a simply self interest nothing else, for you information, china has just claimed the island, it is still under Japanese control

Japan is one of the few countries with the ability to go nuclear seemingly overnight.The american nuclear umbrella is guaranteed under their security pact.If US can't defend japan conventionally..it is treaty bound to go nuclear.After all that is the very meaning of a nuclear umbrella.

If china takes over
it is still with the Jap's
US is bound to economical relationships with china, hence i see a doubt
whether or not china takes over the island is left to see

And China is a resource hungry nation..always on the lookout to gain the ultimate resource of all..territory.This much is evident from the Chinese squabbles with practically most of its neighbours..from India in south and south west to SEA and east Asia.

China is a resource hungry nation because it is developing
no developing nation would like to go to war

Fact is China won't give up on AP in particular.They want it real bad it seems.One never knows when their stated aims expand to the rest of NE..

China was particular about Sikkim to, for which they gave up claims

just as they expanded their claims in south china sea..right out of nowhere.By your reasoning China wuld have never done that.Yet it did.Clearly,the powers in China think differently.

If and When time comes we would see
right know both countries are talking peace
second missile sites coming up in NE to for india so we are preparing ourself too

 

[Voltaire]

sir you are one whinny *** who are determined on IF's and But's

expensive imports from thailand ?? 40-50% of imports of automobile products come from thailand
Look at your USB sometimes it chances are it might.

your whimps and fancies of IF's and but's doesn't move world diplomacy nor dictates nations interest
India would use force because
A) its indian territory
b) us won't use because japan isnt their territory
its a simply self interest nothing else, for you information, china has just claimed the island, it is still under Japanese control

Tch..tch..too frustrated to reason I guess,the entire world is ifs and buts.US nuclear umbrella guarantees to defend Japan and its territorial integrity.Fact.
India was prepared to lose NE in case of Chinese invasion.Fact.
The second one is confirmed by the Indian scorched earth policy in NE.Fact.
No country can replace China as a trade partner and not vice versa.Fact.
If you think China can be replaced,you sir clearly are delusional and there is no point talking to you..if there ever was one in the first place.

 

[Mr.S.Singh]

Tch..tch..too frustrated to reason I guess,the entire world is ifs and buts
.

not frustation it like like making a 6 year old understand how things work and he says the same old shit again

.US nuclear umbrella guarantees to defend Japan and its territorial integrity.Fact..

US is in no position to guarantee anything FACT, it is indept to china
China hasn't taken over the Island FACT

India was prepared to lose NE in case of Chinese invasion.Fact.

Prove ?? or is it one of you home-made day dreaming activities

The second one is confirmed by the Indian scorched earth policy in NE.Fact.

?? how does destroying what ULTA needs be confirimg to you

.No country can replace China as a trade partner and not vice versa.Fact..

Yes they can FACT

If you think China can be replaced,you sir clearly are delusional and there is no point talking to you..if there ever was one in the first place.

If you think china cannot be replaed sir you are living in a delusion

 

[Indrani]

One of the major teaching of RSS is that destruction and looting of temples and sacred places started with the Islamic conquest of North West India in 8th Century only. Now read what Richard Eaton has to say on this. He is clearly challenging the RSS version of history.

The Reign of Non-History | Page 5

How typical of you to believe the Whites over the Indians. In Europe you will be branded a holocaust denier and jailed for what you are doing to the people of the country. Now read what the Hindutvavadis have to say.

Rending the veil of historical negationism in India - IndiaFactsIndiaFacts

An example of negationism by a non-Indian academic is that of Richard Eaton who documented cases of temple destruction by Sufis in the book, Sufis of Bijapur11. However, flying in the face of facts, Eaton has also written apologetics for Islam. One would think that, being a free American citizen and an academic with tenure at the University of Tucson, Arizona, he would have robustly stood by his scholar’s prerogative to unearth inconvenient facts with complete honesty, and left it to the distant Indian society to deal with these facts as best as it might. In fact, this is routinely done in every case of ‘drain inspection’ carried out on the ills of Hindu society.12

Rather, Eaton laboriously tried to establish a false parity between Hindu and Islamic kings by highlighting an imagined ‘continuity’ in temple destruction, citing pre-Islamic instances of rival Hindu kings taking away images of deities during conquest for re-installation in their own temples13.

This ‘continuity’ is, of course, entirely in the eye of the scholar. A little thought and common sense will indicate that the Hindu kings’ appropriation of images worshipped by their rivals is in no way equivalent to the Islamic act of carrying away Pagan idols where their eventual fate is not respectful re-installation and worship in the Islamic Sultan’s personal shrine, but melting down for precious metals, or breakage and embedding into doorsteps so that they could be subjected to desecration by the faithful for the foreseeable future. These indignities are in addition to disrupting Pagan idol-worship at the original site, which is not the case with pre-Islamic India, where the defeated Hindu king was free to re-commence worship of a different image. Eaton’s (and others’) historical skullduggery rooted in a studied refusal to examine Islamic doctrine for reasons underlying Islamic behavior have been documented and critiqued at length by Koenraad Elst in his book Negationism in India14.

Negationism In India - Concealing The Record Of Islam

Negationism In India - Chapter Two - Negationism In India

 

[Voltaire]

not frustation it like like making a 6 year old understand how things work and he says the same old shit again




US is in no position to guarantee anything FACT, it is indept to china
China hasn't taken over the Island FACT


Prove ?? or is it one of you home-made day dreaming activities


?? how does destroying what ULTA needs be confirimg to you



Yes they can FACT


If you think china cannot be replaed sir you are living in a delusion

Sure,why not try to replace China completely in your own life?..
you really are not very bright are you?Your frustration is as evident as the BO of some people.
US debt is like an addiction..a need.The chinese need the american debts as well.FACT.This is a fact.
The point was that your assumption that PRC would give up on AP& NE on the limp noodle threat of Indian state,just because there is some trade..peanuts for china and some inferior nuclear capability is laughable as the Chinese are risking trillions..yes trillions of dollars worth of trade and a very real threat of Japan and US,which by any stretch of imagination is far more powerful than India.
US-Japan security pact gives nuclear umbrella to Japan.FACT.
US is treaty bound to defend Japan and its territorial integrity even if it means going nuclear.After all that is what a nuclear umbrella is.Or does great Indian mystic logic think that India is a something better than US and its nukes.

I think I already clarified that I would not spoon feed you?By jove!!You mainlanders just love to talk on all matters as if you the authority on the subject all the while knowing shit about anything.I mean you and everyone else comes here and challenges a NE resident on the subject of NE..displaying ignorance and idiocy through the entire thread!!
Scorched earth in NE and Nehru whining over AIR that NE was lost in 62 helps you?The chinese just capture more territory gradually while you guys dream on about superpower India.Much of the no mans land in Indo china border has already been lost and losing as we speak..the chinese slowly extend their borders while the great Indian state just sits by in hope that Chinese don't decide to action replay 62 again.
If you think any nation can live and prosper without china..do send a memo to PM modi,who seems to think otherwise.

 

[Indrani]

not frustation it like like making a 6 year old understand how things work and he says the same old shit again




US is in no position to guarantee anything FACT, it is indept to china
China hasn't taken over the Island FACT


Prove ?? or is it one of you home-made day dreaming activities


?? how does destroying what ULTA needs be confirimg to you



Yes they can FACT


If you think china cannot be replaed sir you are living in a delusion

Oh don't bother with @Voltaire. He is not only speaking from both sides of his mouth, he has also learnt to speak from his bottom. If the Indian army kills the insurgents, he cries oh they are bombing us. If they don't kill, he says they are impotent and scared. He lives in a state which is one of the most protected places in India by the very Union of India itself which he despises. I think he was brought up on a diet of jealousy, venom, and ingratitude by the commies which reflects in his speech.

 

[scorpionx]

How typical of you to believe the Whites over the Indians. In Europe you will be branded a holocaust denier and jailed for what you are doing to the people of the country. Now read what the Hindutvavadis have to say.

Rending the veil of historical negationism in India - IndiaFactsIndiaFacts

An example of negationism by a non-Indian academic is that of Richard Eaton who documented cases of temple destruction by Sufis in the book, Sufis of Bijapur11. However, flying in the face of facts, Eaton has also written apologetics for Islam. One would think that, being a free American citizen and an academic with tenure at the University of Tucson, Arizona, he would have robustly stood by his scholar’s prerogative to unearth inconvenient facts with complete honesty, and left it to the distant Indian society to deal with these facts as best as it might. In fact, this is routinely done in every case of ‘drain inspection’ carried out on the ills of Hindu society.12

Rather, Eaton laboriously tried to establish a false parity between Hindu and Islamic kings by highlighting an imagined ‘continuity’ in temple destruction, citing pre-Islamic instances of rival Hindu kings taking away images of deities during conquest for re-installation in their own temples13.

This ‘continuity’ is, of course, entirely in the eye of the scholar. A little thought and common sense will indicate that the Hindu kings’ appropriation of images worshipped by their rivals is in no way equivalent to the Islamic act of carrying away Pagan idols where their eventual fate is not respectful re-installation and worship in the Islamic Sultan’s personal shrine, but melting down for precious metals, or breakage and embedding into doorsteps so that they could be subjected to desecration by the faithful for the foreseeable future. These indignities are in addition to disrupting Pagan idol-worship at the original site, which is not the case with pre-Islamic India, where the defeated Hindu king was free to re-commence worship of a different image. Eaton’s (and others’) historical skullduggery rooted in a studied refusal to examine Islamic doctrine for reasons underlying Islamic behavior have been documented and critiqued at length by Koenraad Elst in his book Negationism in India14.

Negationism In India - Concealing The Record Of Islam

Negationism In India - Chapter Two - Negationism In India

The way of treating a native God and a God of distant foreign land and unknown faith is obviously going to be different. Comparing the two is not only clever but at the same time naive. The obvious fact that is deliberately missing in your defense is Religion and State were inseparable entity in pre-Islamic era for Royals being integral part of worshiping and divinity of Gods were inalienable with the land and the royal house. This was not in the case in post Islamic era where a defiant of the Sultan can easily take shelter in the mosque because he felt State have limited authority inside the mosque. There is a mammoth difference in the psych of pre and post islamic era invasions and perception of the invaders.

Secondly, both Muslim and Hindu Nationalist historians blindly follow the epigraphic tales of Persian chroniclers whose accounts are not often reliable. As per Eaton, there are only 80 confirmed cases of temple destruction compared to 60,000 as claimed by radical modern historians. More over the British in the middle of the nineteenth century, in order to portray the nobility and extravagance of their rule often maligned their predecessors which is evident from the preface written by Elliot.
Lastly, Eaton is not an apologetic, he is a realist. Read his article with more care and patience please.

I will come back in the evening.

 

[Proudpakistaniguy]

there is one thing common between Pakistani Muslims and hinduvata guys

they boht believe in two nation theory

 

[Indrani]

The way of treating a native God and a God of distant foreign land and unknown faith is obviously going to be different. Comparing the two is not only clever but at the same time naive. The obvious fact that is deliberately missing in your defense is Religion and State were inseparable entity in pre-Islamic era for Royals being integral part of worshiping and divinity of Gods were inalienable with the land and the royal house. This was not in the case in post Islamic era where a defiant of the Sultan can easily take shelter in the mosque because he felt State have limited authority inside the mosque. There is a mammoth difference in the psych of pre and post islamic era invasions and perception of the invaders.

Secondly, both Muslim and Hindu Nationalist historians blindly follow the epigraphic tales of Persian chroniclers whose accounts are not often reliable. As per Eaton, there are only 80 confirmed cases of temple destruction compared to 60,000 as claimed by radical modern historians. More over the British in the middle of the nineteenth century, in order to portray the nobility and extravagance of their rule often maligned their predecessors which is evident from the preface written by Elliot.
Lastly, Eaton is not an apologetic, he is a realist. Read his article with more care and patience please.

I will come back in the evening.

Oh really so now you admit the difference? Yet you were the one who brought in comparison to absolve the Muslims. Nor do you seem to understand the import of the amount of veneration the Hindu invading Kings had for the deity. The intent was never desecration. They were not inalienable or irreplaceable to the land or the Royal house. As long as desecration is not committed, the temple remains a place of worship where a new murthi can be installed. Yes the mammoth difference in the psych of the pre and post islamic era invasions is what is being pointed at which you in your dumbness quoted another charlatan Eaton to obfuscate. Who took shelter in a mosque and was saved? How is that relevant to our discussion? The state was spreading Islam by patronizing sufis and other mosques, and implementation of Shariah. So what nonsense are you on about?

Yeah we should not follow Persians but only follow Marxists like Romila Thapar and Meera Nanda and Habib Irfan and Eaton. They have the Divya Drishti which Lord Krishna provided to Sanjaya. So since they have direct access to everything that happened, only they are reliable.

There are 2000 temples documented in just the first volume of Hindu Temples: What Happened to Them by Arun Shourie and Ram Swarup. Everyone who goes against your notion of gentle noble milk of kindness Muslims is committing calumny. But the broken temples stand there as witness to your lies and hogwash. The changing customs of the Hindus marriages is there as live witness even today to how the society completely revised its traditions to adapt to the challenges it faced. The barren landscape of North India with its complete lack of ancient temples while that is a constant feature throughout the South India and SE Asia stands as testimony to your dishonesty. Eaton can go to hell.

there is one thing common between Pakistani Muslims and hinduvata guys

they boht believe in two nation theory

Should make you happy no? Hindutva guys love that Pakistan happened. So now Pakistanis can stop claiming that India has not accepted the creation of Pakistan and move on. No need for paranoia that India covets Pakistan.

 

[Indrani]

Here is the modern day example of what is happening in Sri Lanka. The Buddhist priest taking away the statue of Ganesha from a famous Hindu temple. He did it not because he was trying to destroy it but he wanted the Ganesha to grace his temple. You will compare this will mobs destroying or burning down a temple out of hate?

Mob Led By Buddhist Priest Forcefully Takes Away Pillaiyar Statue From Hindu Temple | Colombo Telegraph

 

[scorpionx]

@Indrani
Yes, there is a mammoth difference in the psych but it is your ignorance that made you so blind that you could not spot the obvious similarities.

And Arun Shourie!! Does he look an historian to you? The only dumb and stupid argument came from you when you compared an economist with a professional academic like Eaton!! Come on!! leave the job to those who are trained for it, not to some one like AS and the idiot marine captain blog.

 

[Bang Galore]

And Arun Shourie!! Does he look an historian to you? The only dumb and stupid argument came from you when you compared an economist with a professional academic like Eaton!! Come on!! leave the job to those who are trained for it, not to some one like AS and the idiot marine captain blog.

I disagree. Arun Shourie is almost never wrong on facts and it would be very difficult to dismiss what he says.Nor is his intellect limited by his specialisation (read his book on Supreme court decisions) I think Eaton is wrong on this one, there is almost no possibility of it being that low a figure. A visit to the Qutub minar and the mosque built beside it shows that breaking of Hindu temples (the mosque is built with pieces of temples) was a common practice. There would be almost no logic to suggest that this was somehow an isolated instance. Even evidence from today's middle east hardly suggests any reluctance to go after other religions/sects, would be some extraordinary pleading to suggest that things were far more mellow in a earlier time when such acts would be the norm.

 

[Indrani]

@Indrani
Yes, there is a mammoth difference in the psych but it is your ignorance that made you so blind that you could not spot the obvious similarities.

And Arun Shourie!! Does he look an historian to you? The only dumb and stupid argument came from you when you compared an economist with a professional academic like Eaton!! Come on!! leave the job to those who are trained for it, not to some one like AS and the idiot marine captain blog.

You can continue in your worship of cartel of thugs that make up for Indologists in Harvard. They are on their way out.

I disagree. Arun Shourie is almost never wrong on facts and it would be very difficult to dismiss what he says.Nor is his intellect limited by his specialisation (read his book on Supreme court decisions) I think Eaton is wrong on this one, there is almost no possibility of it being that low a figure. A visit to the Qutub minar and the mosque built beside it shows that breaking of Hindu temples (the mosque is built with pieces of temples) was a common practice. There would be almost no logic to suggest that this was somehow an isolated instance. Even evidence from today's middle east hardly suggests any reluctance to go after other religions/sects, would be some extraordinary pleading to suggest that things were far more mellow in a earlier time when such acts would be the norm.

Just in 1 thread in skyscrapercity, I have seen 6-7 large mosques built out of stones from the temples destroyed.

 

[scorpionx]

I disagree. Arun Shourie is almost never wrong on facts and it would be very difficult to dismiss what he says.Nor is his intellect limited by his specialisation (read his book on Supreme court decisions) I think Eaton is wrong on this one, there is almost no possibility of it being that low a figure. A visit to the Qutub minar and the mosque built beside it shows that breaking of Hindu temples (the mosque is built with pieces of temples) was a common practice. There would be almost no logic to suggest that this was somehow an isolated instance. Even contemporary evidence from today's middle east hardly suggests any reluctance to go after other religions/sects, would be some extraordinary pleading to suggest that things were far more mellow in a earlier time when such acts would be the norm.

Eaton has always agreed with the fact that temples had been destructed. The only thing he contested is the number of temples destructed. What he says is there is concrete evidence for only 80 not 60,000. It might be a subject to debate but going by Eaton's way of understanding Indo-Islamic history that he mastered for the last 25 years, I find little reason to disbelieve him as of now.
If some better methodology comes up refuting what he says, I am ready to go through it. But at present the points he has raised is difficult to refute.

 

[SrNair]

Sure ..I can count your "real NE" citiens on my finger tips.Some assamese.A supposed sikkimese..a few nepalis under the delusion that they count as NE.What about ,mizoram,meghalya,tripura,manipur,nagaland?Nope..not one from them.
I am from AP and I guess you know how much we love you mainlanders


Japan is one of the few countries with the ability to go nuclear seemingly overnight.The american nuclear umbrella is guaranteed under their security pact.If US can't defend japan conventionally..it is treaty bound to go nuclear.After all that is the very meaning of a nuclear umbrella.
And China is a resource hungry nation..always on the lookout to gain the ultimate resource of all..territory.This much is evident from the Chinese squabbles with practically most of its neighbours..from India in south and south west to SEA and east Asia.
Fact is China won't give up on AP in particular.They want it real bad it seems.One never knows when their stated aims expand to the rest of NE..just as they expanded their claims in south china sea..right out of nowhere.By your reasoning China wuld have never done that.Yet it did.Clearly,the powers in China think differently.

Mr I also met Indians from AP during my college times.They
told us directly oppposite to what you are talking here.
Like I said patd traitors emotion dont gonna change ground reality.You can see a few fractions inhere TN or Kerala that hate India so what.
Live in your delusions mr.Chinese will stayin the same place now where they are .
So chill out idiot.