In Turkey, the President Erdogan wants to fight “to the end” against the “atheists and Zoroastr” PKK

[hacibin]

Words aren't enough. We must admit Turkish government didn't do much to support Shia Turkmens as much as they supported the Sunni Turkmens in Syria. Fair enough there's logistics problems but at least we could show more political solidarity with them.
Shia Turkmens are being oppressed by Barzani Kurds in TuzHurmatu. Where's Turkish reaction towards KRG about it?

 

[T-Rex]

??? Once again you've become incoherent. Calling people "suckular" is your version of an insult isn't it? I'm not playing the victim card, I'm showing you your own hypocrisy.

I think you are misunderstanding the secular vs religious governance debate. An ideal secular society tolerates all faiths but does not mix any religion into its law-making. How is this intolerant? Ps. Turkey is a secular society.

I didn't coin this term, one of your indian buddies in india did. You didn't find it very insulting then, why are you crying now? Besides, it's nothing personal; I think it is quite appropriate for an idea that exists on imposing itself on masses, so yes, you're playing the victim card to divert attention from the fact that it sucks the life out of people where it thrives and I'm guessing you're never going ask how for the sake of silent continuation of such disgusting exploitation.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Any enemy of Turkiye is our enemy too....PKK is internationally recognized as a terrorist group and should be treated like one

.i watched it live and i couldn't believe my ears, i was like *wtf*

O ne dedi kardesim

 

[Luffy 500]

Why are you being philosophical about things now? You opened several threads to prove that secularism is wrong. You opened several threads bashing "moderate" Muslims. Now we find you waxing lyrical about the epitome of Muslim secular leadership.

I think every Muslim country should be like Turkey - a cultured, majority Muslim country with secular government and wide personal freedom. You admire that in Turkey but you don't want it in your own country. That's not common sense it's hypocrisy. All of the things you mentioned such as dawah, praying openly, etc are already legal in Bd. Why don't you appreciate that for a change.

And no it doesn't take centuries to change people, Iran became a theocracy virtually overnight. Bangladesh is pretty much secular already, so your point is moot.

Ps. I don't have any interest in your kind because I know the limitations of your thought processes. But you're the one making silly threads and tagging people. Which is why I don't bother replying to you 2 half the time.

Lol. How am I being philosophical? Why can't i defend someone when he/she is speaking the truth?

NO. Every muslim country should NOT be like turkey. Anyone with elementary level knowledge of Islam would realize that secularism is clear cut kufr. Infact the people you look up to , the European colonialist , knew it all along. They always saw Islam as a comprehensive way of life encompassing every aspect of man's affairs in life including politics and the europeans couldn't see Islam fitting their understanding of religion. That's why way back in the 1800s they coined terms like Islamism to describe Islam and considered it a threat to their way of life. Look at what the British colonial governor of Egypt, Everlyn Baring (1877-1907) , has to say about islam and muslims and the british aim in the muslim world:

• "It is absurd to suppose Europe will look on as a passive spectator whilst the retrograde government based on purely Muhammadan principles and oriental ideas [i.e Islam], is established in Egypt. The material interests at stake are too important …the new generation of Egyptians has to be persuaded or forced into imbibing the true spirit of Western civilisation"

His views on secular "muslims" :

• "Nominally, the Europeanised Egyptian is in the majority of cases a Moslem. In reality, he is generally an Agnostic."

• "The truth is that, in passing through the European educational mill, the young Egyptian Moslem loses his Islamism.But inasmuch as Egyptian society is in a state of flux, the natural result has been to produce a class of individuals many of whom are, at the same time, de-moslemised Moslems and invertebrate Europeans."

• "The Europeanised Egyptian, on the other hand, will often look on the *’ Alim ” (islamic scholar) with all the pride of an intellectual parvenu. From the pedestal of his empirical knowledge, he will regard the ” Alim ” as a social derelict, who has to be tolerated, and even occasionally, for political purposes, to be utilised, but who need not be respected."

And yes it takes time to change a society. A society can't be changed overnight. Systems of governance and state institutions can not be changed overnight.

WHat muslims in all muslim countries should try is to end the intellectual colonialism and change society via education and dawah so that an Islamic country can be build. A generational change is needed. Raising a pious generation is the way forward. People like you may call it creeping fundamentalism if you like.


And NO i do NOT admire all things about turkey. I appreciate many aspects of turkey and dislike many other aspects - one of which is state secularism.


NO secularism does NOT mean personal freedom. And personal freedom is NOT necessarily something to be desired. Freedom within the framework of Islam is what is to be desired.

Muslims in many places are facing persecution in BD. Imams do NOT have freedom of speech now a days and many sisters are indeed humiliated in certain state institution by militant secularists. As expected you are completely detached from the ground reality of BD.


I know BD is secular and as such a dysfunctional corrupt country that can't even ensure basic security to its citizens.


As for the last part. I apologize for rebuking for quoting me. This is an open forum and i tag people for participating in the threads i open. You can ignore if you like. Its all up to you.

 

[EasyNow]

Lol. How am I being philosophical? Why can't i defend someone when he/she is speaking the truth?

NO. Every muslim country should NOT be like turkey. Anyone with elementary level knowledge of Islam would realize that secularism is clear cut kufr. Infact the people you look up to , the European colonialist , knew it all along. They always saw Islam as a comprehensive way of life encompassing every aspect of man's affairs in life including politics and the europeans couldn't see Islam fitting their understanding of religion. That's why way back in the 1800s they coined terms like Islamism to describe Islam and considered it a threat to their way of life. Look at what the British colonial governor of Egypt, Everlyn Baring (1877-1907) , has to say about islam and muslims and the british aim in the muslim world:

• "It is absurd to suppose Europe will look on as a passive spectator whilst the retrograde government based on purely Muhammadan principles and oriental ideas [i.e Islam], is established in Egypt. The material interests at stake are too important …the new generation of Egyptians has to be persuaded or forced into imbibing the true spirit of Western civilisation"

His views on secular "muslims" :

• "Nominally, the Europeanised Egyptian is in the majority of cases a Moslem. In reality, he is generally an Agnostic."

• "The truth is that, in passing through the European educational mill, the young Egyptian Moslem loses his Islamism.But inasmuch as Egyptian society is in a state of flux, the natural result has been to produce a class of individuals many of whom are, at the same time, de-moslemised Moslems and invertebrate Europeans."

• "The Europeanised Egyptian, on the other hand, will often look on the *’ Alim ” (islamic scholar) with all the pride of an intellectual parvenu. From the pedestal of his empirical knowledge, he will regard the ” Alim ” as a social derelict, who has to be tolerated, and even occasionally, for political purposes, to be utilised, but who need not be respected."

And yes it takes time to change a society. A society can't be changed overnight. Systems of governance and state institutions can not be changed overnight.

WHat muslims in all muslim countries should try is to end the intellectual colonialism and change society via education and dawah so that an Islamic country can be build. A generational change is needed. Raising a pious generation is the way forward. People like you may call it creeping fundamentalism if you like.


And NO i do NOT admire all things about turkey. I appreciate many aspects of turkey and dislike many other aspects - one of which is state secularism.


NO secularism does NOT mean personal freedom. And personal freedom is NOT necessarily something to be desired. Freedom within the framework of Islam is what is to be desired.

Muslims in many places are facing persecution in BD. Imams do NOT have freedom of speech now a days and many sisters are indeed humiliated in certain state institution by militant secularists. As expected you are completely detached from the ground reality of BD.


I know BD is secular and as such a dysfunctional corrupt country that can't even ensure basic security to its citizens.


As for the last part. I apologize for rebuking for quoting me. This is an open forum and i tag people for participating in the threads i open. You can ignore if you like. Its all up to you.

OK so secularism is "clear cut kufr" but Erdogan who is practising secularism, leads the most secular Muslim country in the world, is lauded by you. Make up your mind what you stand for, you're all over the place.

Your pretense at intellectualism is quite laughable. Are you seriously trying to make a point about contemporary Muslim society, through the opinions of a white colonist from 100 years ago? Talk about slave mentality.

If you're going to use his opinion as proof, I'll give you another opinion: non-secular society Muslims can be corrupt, faithless and insincere too.

Do you see the stupidity of your argument? What has the secular system got to do with what you're saying? Who said excellent Muslims can't thrive in a secular country? Muslims in the UK are some of the best you will ever meet. Compare them to non secular Muslims and tell me how they are lesser.

 

[hacibin]

Erdogan openly told in one of his speech that he is not secular but he is ruling a secular country. Only states can be secular not people. Some people can support secularism some not. It's their own belief and none of others business.

 

[-SINAN-]

with elementary level knowledge of Islam would realize that secularism is clear cut kufr.

Look boy, Secularism doesn't enforce people to obey the Islam's law like sharia do.

If you are weak willed and can't follow Islam without someone prodding you...it's your problem. We Turks are not weak willed.

 

[lastofthepatriots]

Look boy, Secularism doesn't enforce people to obey the Islam's law like sharia do.

If you are weak willed and can't follow Islam without someone prodding you...it's your problem. We Turks are not weak willed.

Quick question.

Do you think that Attaturk brought secularism to modern day Turkey, or was it the fact that the Muslim Ottomans were already secular in their rule in general? Was it not already ingrained in the society of the Turkish nation by the Muslim Ottomans?

This is something I've always wanted to ask Turkish people, because compared any other Muslim empire, I feel that the Ottomans were secular before the concept even hit the west. I would just like to get your thoughts on this.

@Zulkarneyn @Shepherd7 @revojam

 

[-SINAN-]

Quick question.

Do you think that Attaturk brought secularism to modern day Turkey, or was it the fact that the Muslim Ottomans were already secular in their rule in general? Was it not already ingrained in the society of the Turkish nation by the Muslim Ottomans?

This is something I've always wanted to ask Turkish people, because compared any other Muslim empire, I feel that the Ottomans were secular before the concept even hit the west. I would just like to get your thoughts on this.

@Zulkarneyn @Shepherd7 @revojam

Okay, i will give you my opinion. I would also like to hear my countrymen's opinion on this.

As i see. Ottoman Empire was on the verge of dead. Last Ottoman Sultan signed Treaties of Sevr, virtually left all Anatolia at the hands of the occupying countries, Greeks invaded Western Anatolia, and moved in to conquer all of Anatolia.

Atatürk defeated them and declared the Republic. He outcasted Sultan, declared secularism, abolished Caliphate. So, the new born Republic wouldn't face hardship from the people still favors caliphate and sultan. I think it was a move to completely diminish the powers of the last Sultan.

Before that....we can't say Ottomans were secular, yes some reforms had been made. But sharia, more or less still was in place.

 

[lastofthepatriots]

Okay, i will give you my opinion. I would also like to hear my countrymen's opinion on this.

As i see. Ottoman Empire was on the verge of dead. Last Ottoman Sultan signed Treaties of Sevr, virtually left all Anatolia at the hands of the occupying countries, Greeks invaded Western Anatolia, and moved in to conquer all of Anatolia.

Atatürk defeated them and declared the Republic. He outcasted Sultan, declared secularism, abolished Caliphate. So, the new born Republic wouldn't face hardship from the people still favors caliphate and sultan. I think it was a move to completely diminish the powers of the last Sultan.

Before that....we can't say Ottomans were secular, yes some reforms had been made. But sharia, more or less still was in place.

You see brother, I am not a Turk. But I had such an interest in our last caliphate that I read 3500 page volume of 3 books on the Ottomans when I was 14 years old. I am 27 now. In the times of the Ottomans, and then of the Mughals, I noticed one thing. Turkic Islamic dynasties had been secular to a certain degree, before the concept of secularism was in the western world. I am not so much interested in talking about Attaturk who was such a figure that father of our nation Quaid-e-Azam took influence from him and was even considered a Grey Wolf.

My point is that after reading about a lot Sultans in Turkey, I feel like they were the ones that pushed forward a certain degree of secularism before the word even existed. The minority religions may have not been equal, but they were treated with respect. From my understanding modern day Turkish society has not newly been introduced to secularism. It was a part of the Turkish culture from many hundreds of years ago. Before the Europeans or anyone else.

Thanks for your reply.

 

[Zulkarneyn]

You see brother, I am not a Turk. But I had such an interest in our last caliphate that I read 3500 page volume of 3 books on the Ottomans when I was 14 years old. I am 27 now. In the times of the Ottomans, and then of the Mughals, I noticed one thing. Turkic Islamic dynasties had been secular to a certain degree, before the concept of secularism was in the western world. I am not so much interested in talking about Attaturk who was such a figure that father of our nation Quaid-e-Azam took influence from him and was even considered a Grey Wolf.

My point is that after reading about a lot Sultans in Turkey, I feel like they were the ones that pushed forward a certain degree of secularism before the word even existed. The minority religions may have not been equal, but they were treated with respect. From my understanding modern day Turkish society has not newly been introduced to secularism. It was a part of the Turkish culture from many hundreds of years ago. Before the Europeans or anyone else.

Thanks for your reply.

The book: The Young Turk Legacy and Nation Building by Zürcher answers that question perfectly. But the answer to your question is partly yes. Ottoman Empire from early 1800s already started secularizing with Tanzimat reforms. Ive written many pages on this subject

 

[lastofthepatriots]

The book: The Young Turk Legacy and Nation Building by Zürcher answers that question perfectly. But the answer to your question is partly yes. Ottoman Empire from early 1800s already started secularizing with Tanzimat reforms. Ive written many pages on this subject

You see @Zulkarneyn. I am a pracitcing Muslim. It would be a lie to say I never had an issue with someone that was not a part of my religion. The funny thing is that we are Muslims, but we find other Muslims that we don't agree with. We love our nations, but we find people we don't agree with. We look at people from our villages and tribes, and find people we don't agree with.

Being a human being and a Muslim, I don't look into these so called forced bonds, because both you and me could have been born in Botswana as brothers. We have no control over what we are, or where we were born, or our race/culture/religion. I am proud of my identity and who I am, but at the same token, I don't want to let this pride supersede my humanity.

As the philosopher Plato once said, "I am a citizen of this world". This axiom or truth is further corroborated in Islam.

What is it that I honestly want? I want to be able to practice Islam, without having people hurl hateful comments. Just as I let other people live, I want to be given the right to practice what I practice without being harassed. I want to live by the morals that I was taught by my grandfather. What is so wrong in that?

It seems like the society today is so ignorant, while trying to appear modern, that they don't realize that people like me have been following traditions of elders for decades. And that it is something we take pride in. heh...Sorry for the rant bro.

 

[-SINAN-]

. Ottoman Empire from early 1800s already started secularizing with Tanzimat reforms.

Yes, but to a certain degree....We can still say, Sharia rules...but not as strict as Saudi Arabia, right ?

 

[hussain0216]

The PKK are vermin and should be destroyed

 

[Gibbs]

You see @Zulkarneyn. I am a pracitcing Muslim. It would be a lie to say I never had an issue with someone that was not a part of my religion. The funny thing is that we are Muslims, but we find other Muslims that we don't agree with. We love our nations, but we find people we don't agree with. We look at people from our villages and tribes, and find people we don't agree with.

Being a human being and a Muslim, I don't look into these so called forced bonds, because both you and me could have been born in Botswana as brothers. We have no control over what we are, or where we were born, or our race/culture/religion. I am proud of my identity and who I am, but at the same token, I don't want to let this pride supersede my humanity.

As the philosopher Plato once said, "I am a citizen of this world". This axiom or truth is further corroborated in Islam.

What is it that I honestly want? I want to be able to practice Islam, without having people hurl hateful comments. Just as I let other people live, I want to be given the right to practice what I practice without being harassed. I want to live by the morals that I was taught by my grandfather. What is so wrong in that?

It seems like the society today is so ignorant, while trying to appear modern, that they don't realize that people like me have been following traditions of elders for decades. And that it is something we take pride in. heh...Sorry for the rant bro.

Pretty ironic you state this when you were the one that questioned the morality of others in the first place, Which irked many Turks and others in equal terms.. I dont think anybody questioned you about your beliefs but it was you that questioned others about theirs.. I think first you need to reflect yourself in the mirror mate

To reiterate.. Religious or atheist, Secular or fundamentalist, Faith has to be personal as it meant to be