In signal to China, Obama to give 2 ships to Philippines

[Genesis]

OK. I agree that such attitudes are found everywhere in the world....and even among the most calm, reasonable people at certain times. You seem like one of those people...and I like to think of myself as one. Thats why lets agree to disagree on various issues and move on. We fundamentally view somethings quite differently, though I agree with a lot of what you are trying to say (though may not agree how you are trying to go about saying it).

I am an engineer btw. Whats ur field?

IT Sales.

People are ultimately emotional beings buddy. I have many times tried to bring cold hard facts, but 99% of the people in real life eyes glaze over. That doesn't mean I want to completely resort to their level to try make them understand, because they wont....and what they say sometimes is also quite right (from my view)....broken clock right twice like you said in the other thread.

Thats why I have actually quite enjoyed this exchange we had tonight...since you seem quite structured and organised in your viewpoint.

Now I remeber that you were the guy from before in that other thread when we were discussing the political heritage of the CCP/KMT after Sun Yat Sen. The thread got deleted....so I dont think you saw one of my posts asking if there is an online resource (scan/translation) regarding the treaty that was signed between Qing empire and Nationalist forces.

I find the people that don't care about the facts are the people that don't really care about the subject. Why argue with them. There are always people that do care.

清帝退位诏书_百度百科

Imperial Rescript of Emperor Xuantong's Abbdication

前因民军起事，各省相应，九夏沸腾，生灵涂炭，特命袁世凯遣员与民军代表讨论大局，议开国会，公决政体。两月以来，尚无确当办法，南北暌隔，彼此相持，商辍於途，士露于野，徒以国体一日不决，故民生一日不安。今全国人民心理，多倾向共和，南中各省既倡议於前，北方各将亦主张於后，人心所向，天命可知，予亦何忍以一姓之尊荣，拂兆民之好恶？是用外观大势，内审舆情，特率皇帝，将统治权归诸全国，定为共和立宪国体，近慰海内厌乱望治之心，远协古圣天下为公之义。袁世凯前经资政院选举为总理大臣，当兹新旧代谢之际，宜有南北统一之方，即由袁世凯以全权组织临时共和政府，与民军协商统一办法，总期人民安堵，海宇乂安，仍合满、汉、蒙、回、藏五族完全领土，为一大中华民国，予与皇帝得以退处宽闲，优游岁月，长受国民之优礼，亲见郅治之告成，岂不懿欤？钦此。


very rough translation, details on the important parts.

war everywhere, terrible, sents Yuan Shikai to negotiate with people's army(rebels), open parliament, decide on government type.

War terrible, people wishes for a republic.

Empress Dowager with the Emporer, officially transfers all power to the country and transforms the country into a republic.

Yuan Shikai, was elected PM of Qing, he is to organize the new government and consult all matters with the people.

Manchu, Han, Mongol, Hui and Tibetan, all people and land will be part of the Republic of China.

Yah but I strive for balance. I cannot be purely capitalist or socialist. Of course this does not help me in explaining to you where I exactly stand...and neither would be the case vice versa I think. For that we would have to know each other much longer...maybe over time on this forum it will help...who knows.

Understandable, while I try to sound objective, I also use the CCP policy of don't deny, don't mention. China has a unquestionable advantage of India and essentially all of our neighbors, in terms of economy, hence my liking of it.

I can tell you from experience, as bad as handling clients are, there's nothing more satisfying than defeating those whom you are in competition.

 

[Kyle Sun]

Okay , Uncle Sam needs to comfort its little side kick and tells the ord PH is under its wing.

Message received ~! We kno you are the super poer . Please do not remind us over and over again.

 

[Nilgiri]

I can tell you from experience, as bad as handling clients are, there's nothing more satisfying than defeating those whom you are in competition.

Yah but defeats and victories are mere blips in the long ocean of history.

China didnt stay defeated and crushed after WW2 right? And 50, 100 years is nothing in history.

There are many more high points and low points coming for all of us and for our descendents...on whichever ways we split ourselves by. I just hope that we dont wipe each other out while we are still stuck on just one planet.

 

[Genesis]

Yah but defeats and victories are mere blips in the long ocean of history.

China didnt stay defeated and crushed after WW2 right? And 50, 100 years is nothing in history.

I can only do the best I can and leave the estate in the best condition I can. Same for a country. We enjoy our time here, that's all anyone can hope for.

There are many more high points and low points coming for all of us and for our descendents...on whichever ways we split ourselves by. I just hope that we dont wipe each other out while we are still stuck on just one planet.

We won't, as much as we love winning, there are still lines none of us will cross, because the continuation of the game is just as important.

This is why I never worry about MAD, success is addicting to anyone willing to put up with the political crap, and nothing is more sad for a politician than no way to win.

 

[Nilgiri]

I can only do the best I can and leave the estate in the best condition I can. Same for a country. We enjoy our time here, that's all anyone can hope for.

Yup I hear you. I only wish we could bring those that suffered only the pits and bring them to see the peaks....at least for a little bit.

We know how many have suffered in even the relatively recent past for both these great countries....but at least the future is much brighter now.

We won't, as much as we love winning, there are still lines none of us will cross, because the continuation of the game is just as important.

This is why I never worry about MAD, success is addicting to anyone willing to put up with the political crap, and nothing is more sad for a politician than no way to win.

True. But by "We" do you mean just China or whole humanity? We are still in a very vulnerable time period in human civilisation, where we have developed weapons that can destroy the world several times over, but we are stuck on the world still.

This is the crucial phase of 100 - 200 years that we need to not do anything stupid...and that means everyone. More countries need to follow the NFU policy of China and India....you can tell which countries are the wise civilisations among the nuclear powers.

 

[badguy2000]

Imperial Rescript of Emperor Xuantong's Abbdication


前因民军起事，各省相应，九夏沸腾，生灵涂炭，特命袁世凯遣员与民军代表讨论大局，议开国会，公决政体。两月以来，尚无确当办法，南北暌隔，彼此相持，商辍於途，士露于野，徒以国体一日不决，故民生一日不安。今全国人民心理，多倾向共和，南中各省既倡议於前，北方各将亦主张於后，人心所向，天命可知，予亦何忍以一姓之尊荣，拂兆民之好恶？是用外观大势，内审舆情，特率皇帝，将统治权归诸全国，定为共和立宪国体，近慰海内厌乱望治之心，远协古圣天下为公之义。袁世凯前经资政院选举为总理大臣，当兹新旧代谢之际，宜有南北统一之方，即由袁世凯以全权组织临时共和政府，与民军协商统一办法，总期人民安堵，海宇乂安，仍合满、汉、蒙、回、藏五族完全领土，为一大中华民国，予与皇帝得以退处宽闲，优游岁月，长受国民之优礼，亲见郅治之告成，岂不懿欤？钦此。


Because rebels are all over the country, people suffer much. Once authorized Yuan Shikai to negotiate with the representatives of rebels,deciding how to organize the government and congress. Now, 2 months have passed, no agreement has been reached and the whold country is devided and still in chaos .

Today, most citizens tend to accept "republic", from people south/center provinces to generals in northern provinces.
For the sake of god, I would never keep my crown despite of people's appeal/expectation.

So,according to the situation, I decide to cede my power to all citizens, and help set up the republic,in order to stop the chaos all over the country and keep up the justice.

Yuan Shikai ,as Prime minister,could unite the country during the transition. So ,now authorized Yuan to organize the new republic government and negotiate with the rebel representatives. May the peple enjoy peace and chaos cease.

All Manchus,Han,Mongols,Huis,Tibtans,with all their land, would consititute the Great republic of China. Then, I would retire and enjoy the peace.

that is all.

 

[oproh]

Just two? obama should donate two aircraft-carriers to the Philippines.

 

[sicsheep]

Just two? obama should donate two aircraft-carriers to the Philippines.

Nah, only true friends give you two decommissioned coast guard cutter after they've stripped out the radar and guns. all you need to fight China. LOL

 

[bsruzm]

Just two? obama should donate two aircraft-carriers to the Philippines.

Philippines wouldn't need that, Obama has his own superior ships to locate in your waters so as he said 'you can count on U.S.'

 

[Zero_wing]

Well good in all but we do need more ship most the ship in the PN are three times older than most the men on them but this will be the first of many i guess and man one Hamilton class that's a first we have to pay for the other two but at lest we just have more money for refurbishing.

 

[Penguin]

Nah, only true friends give you two decommissioned coast guard cutter after they've stripped out the radar and guns. all you need to fight China. LOL

And the PN has put on guns from its own stock to replace them (that saves money, and I suppose this was done by their own request.)

Prior to turn-over to the Philippine Navy, the Hamilton-class cutters were armed with a Mk.75 Oto Melara 76 mm Compact main gun, two Mk.38 M242 Bushmaster 25 mm chain gun at midships, and a Phalanx CIWS system aft.The CIWS and chain guns were removed by the United States Coast Guard prior to turn-over, with the Mk.75 gun remaining.
The Philippine Navy installed a Mk. 38 Mod. 0 25mm chain gun and two Mk. 16 20mm Oerlikon autocannons to the PF-15, and six 50-caliber machine guns on both the PF-15 and PF-16.
The Philippines ordered two new Mk. 38 Mod. 2 25mm chain guns, and are expected to be installed to the ships of the class. On Feb. 17, 2014, it was reported that the Mk. 38 Mod. 2 25mm guns are already in the Philippines, waiting for the U.S. Coast Guard armament team who will install the weapons. As of January 25, 2015, 2 Mk. 38 Mod. 2 25mm guns are already installed on PF-16

Gregorio del Pilar-class frigate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

PN ships lack the 1970 era AN/SPS-40 radars, which is a long range (250 nmi) 2d radar that in most applications was replaced by AN/SPS-49(V) radars (as found on Perry's) in the late 1980s and early 1990s. [EDIT: this is mainly relevant for the ability to detect AIR targets] So, that old radar is not much of a loss.

Besides, why not stick a nice modern, small and lightweight 3D radar on there? Along with some VL SAMs.
Bolt some Mk48 GWLS mod 0 or mod 1 onto the stacks (e.g. 4 cells each side) and stick in some duo packed Sea Cepters.

That's up to them. They are clearly accepting what the US doesn't "want".

Besides it is none of a Chinese person's business to decide what is patronizing and what isn't....in Indo-PH relations.



We have helped countries way richer than both in per capita terms. Neither are we the first or only country to indulge in such. China for example helped Pakistan extensively through the 70s and 80s even though Pakistan had higher per capita income. It is about economies of scale....and when we are talking about such huge countries, there isnt a homogenous income level/industrial capability to being with.



Every country has the full right to help others in whatever way possible..in line with various strategic goals.

I remember Chinese defence trolls clamouring and braying that they would invade and punish Vietnam very soon when the anti-China rioting was going on....and absolutely zilch has happened.

So no one needs to mention X,Y,Z when talking about A and B...but A and B still have their right to a minimum credible deterrence and capability.



Nothing to do with the SCS and Asian geopolitics at all. India military evolution, capablility and margins today are quite different from 1991 era China.



It sure can, but it can also be upgraded to something even more potent and modern I would imagine depending on the requirements and finances available. Outside the weapons and sensors, there may need to be a propulsion system change (marine turbines can be quite an issue)....no idea if that would be a deal-breaker.

Maybe @Penguin can give a few more details on what he thinks of this hypothetical proposal.

In the past they has (besides 76mm) 2x3 ASW torpedo tubes + sonar, 2x4 Harpoon, Phalanx CIWS. Basically frigate fit. So they can handle that.

Bolt on some Swedish NSM, some infrared or active radar homing missiles duo or quad packed from existing small VLUs (Mk48, or e.g. Single Cell Launcher Mk41), a 3D naval radar. And you're halfway there. You could use a heli for ASW and not equip the ship, or slap on some ASW 324mm tubes and a compact towed sonar.

8m x 8m x 13m I-mast 400 might be nice, in combination with said SAMs.

 

[Kyle Sun]

And the PN has put on guns from its own stock to replace them (that saves money, and I suppose this was done by their own request.)

Gregorio del Pilar-class frigate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

PN ships lack the 1970 era AN/SPS-40 radars, which is a long range (250 nmi) 2d radar that in most applications was replaced by AN/SPS-49(V) radars (as found on Perry's) in the late 1980s and early 1990s. So, that old radar is not much of a loss.

Besides, why not stick a nice modern, small and lightweight 3D radar on there? Along with some VL SAMs.
Bolt some Mk48 GWLS mod 0 or mod 1 onto the stacks (e.g. 4 cells each side) and stick in some duo packed Sea Cepters.



In the past they has (besides 76mm) 2x3 ASW torpedo tubes + sonar, 2x4 Harpoon, Phalanx CIWS. Basically frigate fit. So they can handle that.

Bolt on some Swedish NSM, some infrared or active radar homing missiles duo or quad packed from existing small VLUs (Mk48, or e.g. Single Cell Launcher Mk41), a 3D naval radar. And you're halfway there. You could use a heli for ASW and not equip the ship, or slap on some ASW 324mm tubes and a compact towed sonar.

8m x 8m x 13m I-mast 400 might be nice, in combination with said SAMs.

I have ship sick

 

[Penguin]

Lets not forget, the main duty of these ships is patrol, they are not principally intended as warship (eventhough they are now in grey rather than white and have Always had military/naval capability)

A big plus for the OPV role is - clearly - their ability to carry and support a helicopter

In addition to their sprint capability due to gasturbine use, a big plus of these ships is their long range (14,000 nmi; 26,000 km; 16,000 mi at 12 knots and 10,400 nmi; 12,000 mi; 19,300 km at 20 kn) under diesel power. This is important to a navy like that of the Phillippines, which has little by way of underway replanishment capability.

Original specs https://www.uscg.mil/history/cutters/378/docs/387-1969-USNIP_article.pdf
1980s FRAM modernization: http://www.uscg.mil/history/cutters/378/docs/378-FRAM-Docs.pdf

Philippine Navy adds first oil tanker BRP Lake Caliraya to fleet | Headlines, News, The Philippine Star | philstar.com

For large modern (5k-6k tons fld) Euro frigates it is typically

LCF/7Provincien, F123 Branderburg, F124 Sachsen: 4,000 nmi (7,400 km; 4,600 mi) at 18 knots (33 km/h; 21 mph)
F-100 Juan Carlos: 4,500 nmi (8,300 km; 5,200 mi) at 18 knots (33 km/h; 21 mph
FREMM:

• France: 6,000 nm (11,000 km (6,800 mi)) at 15 knots

• Italy: 6,700 nm (12,300 km (7,600 mi)) at 15 knots

The larger classes (6-9k tons)
Huitfeldt/Absolon classes
+9,000 nautical miles (17,000 km; 10,000 mi) at 18 knots (33 km/h; 21 mph)
Horizon class

• 7,000 nautical miles (13,000 km) at 18 kn (33 km/h)

• 3,500 nmi (6,480 km) at 25 knots (46 km/h)

Daring class
Range: In excess of 7,000 nautical miles (13,000 km) at 18 kn (33 km/h

Dutch Holland class ocean patrol vessels (3750 ton OPVs):
Range: 5,000 nautical miles (9,300 km; 5,800 mi) at 15 knots (28 km/h; 17 mph)
This is comparable in size (a bit bigger) to the 3250 ton Hamilton class.

By comparison, the Japanese coast guard Shikisima class has a 20,000 nmi range but that displaces over 9000 tons full load.

 

[Penguin]

Artist's rendition of the the Coast Guard's new High Endurance Cutter, circa 1963
378-Foot High Endurance Cutter Class Index