in 5 years people forget about Shanghai...and talk Mumbai...
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badguy2000
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Frankly speaking, In china, India-style democracy is not so reputable as Indian people thought!
Here, people always think that both autocracy and democracy have their failed examples!
the example of "failed autocracy" is North Korea and the example of "failed democracy" are Africa and India.....
When Indian people express their appreciation of "India-style democracy", most Chinese people just feel that such a appreciation is as absurd as N.Kroean say that N.Korea is a paradise!
Here, people always think that both autocracy and democracy have their failed examples!
the example of "failed autocracy" is North Korea and the example of "failed democracy" are Africa and India.....
When Indian people express their appreciation of "India-style democracy", most Chinese people just feel that such a appreciation is as absurd as N.Kroean say that N.Korea is a paradise!
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notsuperstitious
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I'm afraid thats just more spin, trying to show that big brother china only censors adult / splittist (sic) material, whereas reality is that that kind of protective censorship / regulation is attampted by all the govts, not just chinese.
What we are discussing here, and what china does is does not let their own dear citizens access anything the communist party thinks is not good, just have a look at it - not even google, no bbc
Sites Inaccessible in China - Documentation of Internet Filtering in China
So it'll be better if YOU understood the difference first.
Under communist control, I would postulate that your land would be evenly distributed among poor Indian farmers via land revolution, and handful rich landlords would either become ordinary farmer or be jailed/executed due to their ill treatment against the mass.
Nobody would practice caste for fearing iron fists of the system. Communal violence caused by different religions would be none, since no leaders in the country would be non-secular and the party is of no-religion. And the vast mass would realize that equality is the essence of brotherly hood and common prosperity, even in the remotest areas.
People for generations considered themselves condemned and their hopes only glimmering in “next life” would be the master of the country radiating with their intelligence and creativities in every field they would enthusiastically participate in constructing a new India.
Since India is composed of many ethnics, the leaders in the central committee would be roughly proportional to the ratio and there would never be a fundamentalist. National advancement would be the sole goal of the leaders, not just their own moneybags. In parallel, people’s congress with elected representatives would address issues that concern their daily life effectively, the issues such as education, medication, transportation, disease, starvation, energy, corruption…
Your “Slumdog Millionaire” girl star wouldn’t be called for sale by her father in a semi-public manner, since your vast mass would consider selling child a flagrant criminal, and that would spontaneously be condemned by folks from all walks. And her father perhaps would be subsequently put into jail after a fast and right judicial due process, instead of still being left alone lingering with unfulfilled urge of getting fil.thy rich.
Your boy star, little Mr. Ismail would never have to worry where to live. If the communist government would demolish his house for broader public benefits, his family would be informed and a compensation package would be negotiated with his parents. His parents might disagree with the package, because they would like to get more from the government. The government would invite the third party to the negotiation with right market value of the price of their dwelling place. If the parents would insist 1,000,000,000 dollar compensation for their 1,000 dollar worthy place and against a compensation of 2,000 dollar from the government, the government/court would give them 6-12 month to move out. Then a company would come and pull down their dwelling place. They would be angry and go to court to sue the government; they could also go to New Delhi to file a petition…The parents might as well call in their brothers/sisters/in-laws/uncles/aunts/friends in trying to stop the demolition. The company doing the demolition would call in police, and some of the parent’s relatives could be arrested. And your whole village could get angry and rise in riots, and more police/armed police would be called and handful leaders of the riots would be arrested…
The bottom line is that the purpose for demolishing the house would be accomplished. And Ismail and family might be happy or angry, but they would have a decent place to live and the communist India’s society as a whole would therefore have advanced a step further.
At the same time the neighboring China hypothetically would still remain feudalist. They would now be wary the fast rising of India. Their defense minister Mr. XYZ would publicly state that China’s number 1 enemy or potential number 1 enemy is communist India, because, event though they started around the same line, India would have 3 times the GDP of China and negligible percent of illiteracy. When India would mount on an international arena, the whole world would listen attentively.
China would explode nuclear weapons 20 years after India would do. China would probably try to undermine Indian’s advance by hosting some Caste (or whatever) lords who have been deprive privileges by Indian Communists and people. China would under excuse of humanity to support a split of India NE or other areas through the activities of these lords. China actually would have western style election to please their western allies. And year after year, only feudalist lords would get elected. And 20% of the Chinese parliament members would be criminal suspects. But domestically, Chinese would be assured that China would be the turtle that would eventually win the race and that India the rabbit. Most of illiterate Chinese mass would not have chance to access public welfare, and communal violence would be rampant due to lack of education… and just recently a horrible terrorist attack would happen in Shanghai by perhaps Uygur terrorists.
… but cool down: it’s just hypothetical.
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godsavetheworld
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Frankly speaking, In china, India-style democracy is not so reputable as Indian people thought!
Here, people always think that both autocracy and democracy have their failed examples!
the example of "failed autocracy" is North Korea and the example of "failed democracy" are Africa and India.....
When Indian people express their appreciation of "India-style democracy", most Chinese people just feel that such a appreciation is as absurd as N.Kroean say that N.Korea is a paradise!
India doesnot need appreciation from Chinese people per se. Democracy is all about giving people a voice and a choice. If any country manages to keep its people happy then that form of government is successful.
India earns praise from the world, because every five years 1.1 billion people approve and disapprove the previous 5 year policy. They can vote for change or vote against change. This encourages healthy competition within the country's political estabilishment, and doesnot make one particular person all-powerful, and hence taking the country forward.
India earns praise because its people are resposible for making India the power it is, and what it will be in the near future. Diversity of opinion is our strength not our weakness.
godsavetheworld
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The only thing a Communist government can do is insult a child, and try to dupe the world by not allowing a child to sing because she wasnt 'pretty enough' and even worse, replace her with another child that lip-syncs.
The only thing a communist government does is ask girls to strip and 'measure' them before making a decision if they are 'good' enough for 'ushering'.
The only thing that communist China does is gag the media, and show only things that the communist presume 'good'.
And the only thing that China does is follow a counstitution that says this:
You might 'proud' of this communist regime, but we think it is as sad as dictatorship. First learn to respect humans, before lecturing us on 'democracy'.
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aimarraul
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wow wow wow,calm down ,all indian here .we don't care about your lives,just hope you can do the same thing,mind your own business,china and india is irrelevant to each other ,and there is no end to defame each other.
most pictures about Shanghai have been PSed,it's time to stop this stupid comparison ,mumbai is 10 decades ahead of Shanghai，here is the real Shanghai:
most pictures about Shanghai have been PSed,it's time to stop this stupid comparison ,mumbai is 10 decades ahead of Shanghai，here is the real Shanghai:
Nemesis
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How many people outside of South Asia have heard of Gwadar?
There is no if and but about it, Mumbai is one of worlds great cities.
New York had 9/11, did that diminish her greatness?
Pearl of the orient
These empty phrases mean nothing. Do you know in 1940's Calcutta was called the Paris of the east? That Shillong is still called the Scotland of the east? Phrases are irrelevant. There is no question of equation. Shanghai is a glass palace with no foundation. Unless you hold a job in Shanghai, you're not allowed to live in the city, call me picky but i would choose to live elsewhere.
I first wanted to report this post, but what difference would that make, it is far better to make your post the butt of ridicule.
Mumbai stinks? If you say so buddy.
You mean like SARS? Oh wait, that just hit China.
I have seen trains in both Pakistan and Bangladesh, now i could
take the help of my English education and find eloquent adjectives to describe the passengers on Pakistani and Bangladeshi trains, but you see, i don't think you would understand them.
Quick question, ever been to Mumbai? or are you just making assumptions based on your hate-filled imaginations?
Yup, it's the latter.
Funny, India is one of the most visited countries on earth, Remind me where the rest of south Asia is?
As far as rapes are concerned, more rapes happen in Western nations than in India. Fact.
What would happen to a western woman if she visited our neighbouring countries? A point to ponder.......
You using the word intelligent is an oxymoron.
Indians don't get offended by the rantings of trolls. We are civilized that way. It would also explain why you are still allowed to post on this board.
Sounds like somebody's mentality hasn't been changed much since 1962: still abysmally shallow and pitifully myopic.
This is not a government behaviour.
This is art performance. If you love ugly actors/actress, you should voice your idiosyncrasy in Bollywood.
In addition, you wouldnt bring dead corps of Romeo and Julie into stage for reality purposes, would you? Perhaps you would based on your understanding of performing arts.
This is not a government behaviour, either.
And what's wrong with that? If a child wants participate sports, his/her bones and tenders are to be measured and tested. If he/she doesn't like it, he/she can stay away from that.
Remind you that India is the # 1 country that people brows ponographic contents the most in the whole world.
Id love to see lying democratic Indian media be banned in China, but wish more literate Chinese will participate in a new wave of information share through internet.
You weird eyes are appreciated.
BTW, I love a limited control of religion practice to prevent fundamentalists of all sorts, just as all freedom has its limit.
In general the communists in China have done far better than democratic Indian politicians. That doesn't rule out the fact that CPC made, and is making, mistakes.
Just read this about human rights:
CPC brings down illiteracy from about 70% to now 9+%;
CPC lengthens the life expectancy from about 40 to 73+;
CPC causes infant mortality from a ridiculous level to now about 20 per 1000.
...
This is what a government should do in the 1st place, not worthy too much of pride.
But a government, under a name of democracy, keeps hoaxing their constituency for power is deplorable.
Right in that, China's human rights result is far from good and desperately in need of improvement, but is better than that of democratic India. IMO.
This is not a government behaviour.
This is art performance. If you love ugly actors/actress, you should voice your idiosyncrasy in Bollywood.
In addition, you wouldnt bring dead corps of Romeo and Julie into stage for reality purposes, would you? Perhaps you would based on your understanding of performing arts.
This is not a government behaviour, either.
And what's wrong with that? If a child wants participate sports, his/her bones and tenders are to be measured and tested. If he/she doesn't like it, he/she can stay away from that.
Remind you that India is the # 1 country that people brows ponographic contents the most in the whole world.
Id love to see lying democratic Indian media be banned in China, but wish more literate Chinese will participate in a new wave of information share through internet.
You weird eyes are appreciated.
BTW, I love a limited control of religion practice to prevent fundamentalists of all sorts, just as all freedom has its limit.
In general the communists in China have done far better than democratic Indian politicians. That doesn't rule out the fact that CPC made, and is making, mistakes.
Just read this about human rights:
CPC brings down illiteracy from about 70% to now 9+%;
CPC lengthens the life expectancy from about 40 to 73+;
CPC causes infant mortality from a ridiculous level to now about 20 per 1000.
...
This is what a government should do in the 1st place, not worthy too much of pride.
But a government, under a name of democracy, keeps hoaxing their constituency for power is deplorable.
Right in that, China's human rights result is far from good and desperately in need of improvement, but is better than that of democratic India. IMO.
godsavetheworld
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Well if you think Bollywood represents Indian art and culture, then I
feel sorry for your level of ignorance.
My 'understanding' of performing arts tells me that that you dont need to deprieve a 5 year old of his/her inherent right to perform based on 'looks'. Music is for ears not for your eyes. I belong to a culture that 'invented' music and carried it to the world.
One thing is for sure, Pt Ravi Shankar would have been no Pt had he grown up in communist China.
Perhaps it tells me a lot about your understanding of arts, 'fake a child to please the world'. Just awesome.
This explains why majority of Chinese women still need to face 'male oppression', and are discriminated in all spheres of life. If you have a Chinese like yourself justifying 'stripping' of young girls and 'measuring' them, then I feel disgusted to be matching my wits against him.
Indian democracy came a long way from banning malpractices like Sati and dowry, to assuring equality of justice and oppurtunity to women.
Someone who cannot respect women, doesnt deserve to exist.
So thats what Chinese call it these days? 'A new wave of information sharing' via means that is even more regulated than media itself?
What communists fear is actually giving people any chance to voice their angst. Tibetians did it, and they were massacred. Chinese did it in Tiananmen and 50,000 were killed.
Religion was mentioned in China's constitution for the first time in 2007. But reality on ground is remains the same as in 1950s.
Your pride is deplorable.
Chinese figures just as reliable as the toys they make. Its hillarious to hear a Chinese use the words 'human rights', and even more when they say 'its better than ......'
My honest advice to you is to educate yourself about your own country, because you seem to have lost touch with the reality.
Here this will help: Dummies guide to living without freedom in Communist China
Sounds like someones mentality hasnt changed since the dawn of the 20th century. PRC was estabilished in what 1912? Its been 97 years and the people in China still have to face the same farcical sense of 'freedom' that is relative only to the reign of Stalin and second only to North Korea. It is perhaps the only country that justifies killing of thousands of Tibetians, denying equality to women, and 'faking' what they fail to 'create'.....happiness amongst its own people.
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Tell me why do actors/actresses always fake themselves to please the world by making-up their face and putting themselves in costumes?
Your sense of performing arts only defames your self-proclaimed music inventing culture.
Ok,ok, now the gender issue.
Reuters AlertNet - TABLE-Norway tops gender equality index, Yemen worst
gender equality index
COUNTRY 2008 RANKING 2008 SCORE 2007 RANKING
China 57 0.6878 73
India 113 0.6060 114
Democratic India ranks deplorable 113 in gender equality, authoritarian China ranks the 57th. While democratic India did progress one position from 114 to 113, authoritarian China advanced 16 positions in the same one year time.
Yeah, but don’t be yielding and shrieking that this is communist data.
Frankly, you damage the name of democracy. Sorry to burst your bubble, but your democracy is constantly a bad example of democracy in debates on Chinese forums.
So thats what Chinese call it these days? 'A new wave of information sharing' via means that is even more regulated than media itself?
What communists fear is actually giving people any chance to voice their angst. Tibetians did it, and they were massacred. Chinese did it in Tiananmen and 50,000 were killed.
Religion was mentioned in China's constitution for the first time in 2007. But reality on ground is remains the same as in 1950s.
Your pride is deplorable.
Chinese figures just as reliable as the toys they make. Its hillarious to hear a Chinese use the words 'human rights', and even more when they say 'its better than ......'
Your reckless data of 50000 can only be conveniently fabricated from nowhere but the incredible land of Bharat. Are you sure you haven’t missed couple of zeros?
More amazingly, a person from a democratic country even dares classify which group people is allowed to talk human rights, and which group of people is not allowed to talk human rights. How vivid a demonstration of despicable Caste mentality in public! No wonder that, after 62 years of independence of your country, those underprivileged in your country are still democratically being treated inhumanely.
Yet, even one who couldn't be more foolhardy can’t deny but acknowledge that China makes progress in freedom of believing. All human beings should be proud of their achievements, leaving alone the screaming of anti-human whiners.
It is interesting to finally find that I am talking to a person who invoked this data and that urls, gave this human right lecture and that freedom education about China but doesn’t know when PRC was established.
Am I wasting my breath? Zoot!
Nemesis
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Who cares if China is 5 or even 10 years ahead of India?
Sorry to bust your bubble but we Indians don't really care.
Shall we put it another way? It is ironic to hear a Chinese lecture India on Human rights.
Lol, apparently on this forum, when a Pakistani/Chinese/Bangladeshi starts losing a debate to an Indian, he starts up on the old redundant argument of caste.
What is inhumane is demolishing slums to "develop" a better image of a city. What is inhumane is not allowing a citizen to be a resident of a city unless he or she holds a job. What is inhumane is the total suppression of the individual in China. But most importantly of all, what is inhumane is not allowing a people to chose its own leaders.
What hyperbolic rubbish. The entire justification for Chinese autocracy rests on development, but honestly, most Indians would chose to live in "inefficient" India instead of autocratic China because of India's democratic freedoms.
You can have your faster pace of development, your efficiency, I'll take freedom any day.
PS - It is hilarious to see that people consider China a communist country. It is nothing more than a one party dictatorship following capitalist policies. There is another word for that, and it isn't communism.
Sorry to bust your bubble but we Indians don't really care.
Shall we put it another way? It is ironic to hear a Chinese lecture India on Human rights.
Lol, apparently on this forum, when a Pakistani/Chinese/Bangladeshi starts losing a debate to an Indian, he starts up on the old redundant argument of caste.
What is inhumane is demolishing slums to "develop" a better image of a city. What is inhumane is not allowing a citizen to be a resident of a city unless he or she holds a job. What is inhumane is the total suppression of the individual in China. But most importantly of all, what is inhumane is not allowing a people to chose its own leaders.
What hyperbolic rubbish. The entire justification for Chinese autocracy rests on development, but honestly, most Indians would chose to live in "inefficient" India instead of autocratic China because of India's democratic freedoms.
You can have your faster pace of development, your efficiency, I'll take freedom any day.
PS - It is hilarious to see that people consider China a communist country. It is nothing more than a one party dictatorship following capitalist policies. There is another word for that, and it isn't communism.
Geromix
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@gpit-
In the same post that i replied back to you way back,i made this statement which i will have to quote again-
Geromix said:
And so democracy triumphs again.
(You must also see Eurocommunism,and explain to me with conclusive arguments why communism needs the crutch of dictatorship in China!)
Land reforms have been a thorny issue in India.
Its been successful only in pockets of the country.But a lot more needs to be done.
The landmark Forest Rights Bill seeks to recognise forest rights of forest dwelling Scheduled Tribes (FDSTs).
Again what is lacking is political will,and not the the problem of democracy.
The situation in certainly complex in China as well with land acquisition being a thorny issue with corrupt officials often involved.
Communism in China today is not what it truly is supposed to be.
"What collective means in theory is rather woolly; in practice, much less so. It often refers to a bunch of party-approved village apparatchiks arrogating ownership rights for themselves. It is their stitching up of deals, pocketing of kickbacks and fleecing of farmers that provokes so many protests." -Economist
You will acknowledge the elements of capitalism in China,almost everybody agrees to the hybrid case of part communism and part capitalism.
Collective landownership is one of the last vestiges of communism in China,i don't expect it to last for too long.Land rights reforms are going and it will certainly change.
Demolishing of slums,Dharavi is being demolished.And it will be redeveloped.
Supreme Court order cheers Dharavi residents
Now the question that needs to be asked is,
Would a court in China defend people's rights,deliver a judgment against the Government?
(This is of course the Independent judiciary argument)
In your hypothetical situation of Communist rule-
gpit said:
Hmm.. this does not have an end to it.
It is incomplete.
It is violent.
And cyclical too.
Would this violence had been reported by the press in your "hypothetical communist India"?
(The answer would be no,because there is no freedom of speech or of the press, this would have been an embarrassment for the government)
Method of resolving differences is better in a democracy.(This again explains why i would say democracy is a glue in a multi-lingual,multi-cultural,multi-religious society like that of India.
Now lets take a look at other aspects.
gpit said:
How many leaders would that be?
A population of 1.1 billion.
-The 1991 India census recognized "1576 rationalized mother tongues" which were further grouped into language categories.
-22 scheduled languages(more than 1 million speakers)
-Religions numerous.
-Cultures and traditions there are many.Each caste has its own traditions differing from region to region.
The task of building a central committee is impossible.
*India is not China, which is largely homogeneous in nature.*
Democracy however creates a complex and dynamic power sharing political structure,its roots are in the villages and goes all the way to the top,at the Center through the nature of competitive multi-party
politics.(Please check Pluralist Theory of Democracy,Robert Dahl,polyarchy or simply pluralism)
gpit said:
One line to eliminate caste system.
I will quote again from one of my previous posts which was a reply to you-
Geromix said:
So you see,the system cannot be abolished because it a reservoir of identities.
Each caste has its own traditions and micro-culture.
Caste system needs to be reformed and bring the various castes at par with each other.
Therefore you need to take a re-look at your statement,practice of caste is really a practice of identity.
(This is a explanation for identity politics in India,castes when they exercise political rights gain political power,again only possible through democracy.)
It is caste discrimination that needs to be removed.
This is where democracy comes in to picture.
"In a bowl of freshly tossed salad, all the ingredients are mixed together. Yet they never lose their shape, form or identity. ..."
That is what democracy does,it retains identity and removes hierarchy.
All i can say is that this just shows your poor understanding of India.
Giving highly simplistic arguments.
Geromix said:
Again,it makes me think of the futility of your posts.
We have already decided what we want but yet people like you....
Geromix said:
-Geromix
To Nemesis,
I agree with many of your points such as China is no more a pure communist country in traditional sense. One of the fundamental indicators of a traditional communism is that all properties are owned by the public. That is obviously not true even long before the open-up of China. Brainwashed people, who never care to understand what communism is, recklessly use the name as baton to attack China, which picks a different Road to Rome.
But, let’s just focus on one topic for the moment.
Isn’t it a typical Brahmanist mentality to classify people into different groups (caste), where a group of people bears superior privilege such as allowed to talk human rights, and another group is considered inferior and is condemned not allowed to talk human rights?
If this is not caste mentality, what is this? If this is caste mentality why can’t Pakistanis/Chinese/Bangladeshis/Americans/whoever condemn it?
Please enlighten us within the context.
To Geromix,
You perhaps read some books, but obviously you don’t know communism. It is perhaps that you are brought up in an environment that dosen't encourage or allow a study of both orthodox and heterodox theories.
In theory, Communism is no less perfect than democracy. In fact communism theory contains democracy. So you implication that communism and democracy are mutual exclusive is laughable to say the least. The bottom line of the communism is to abolish exploitation, and all proletarians have a say about their life (so called proletarian dictatorship).
The problem is in practice.
Identity is formed during a growth of person in a certain environment. If the environment is constantly bombarding him with various theories and practices that “prove” to him that he’s born condemned and should forget about your this life, the person will form an identity that he belongs to a cursed class.
Why there is a lack of political will in your elites? My postulation will be simple: it is in their interest to keep the status quo.
The evolutionary history of human society reveals that interest groups will never yield their social positions voluntarily. Keeping a vast un- or under-educated serves the interest of the handful myopic privileged. This nevertheless harms the nation as a whole.
It is of vital importance for the elites to wage propaganda against un-, under-educated or un-, under-informed people. Perhaps majority of your 400 million fall into that category.
Lack of political will is a sign of system failure.
For instance, people’s call for transparency in Chinese officials’ assets/earnings, which I fervently support when posting in their forums, has met with huge lack of political will.
Nonetheless an enormous amount of your countrymen, including your elite Mr. Singh, never stop judging China in a pitiful and laughable way… , he also misjudged his city as well.
You perhaps read some books, but obviously you don’t know communism. It is perhaps that you are brought up in an environment that dosen't encourage or allow a study of both orthodox and heterodox theories.
In theory, Communism is no less perfect than democracy. In fact communism theory contains democracy. So you implication that communism and democracy are mutual exclusive is laughable to say the least. The bottom line of the communism is to abolish exploitation, and all proletarians have a say about their life (so called proletarian dictatorship).
The problem is in practice.
Identity is formed during a growth of person in a certain environment. If the environment is constantly bombarding him with various theories and practices that “prove” to him that he’s born condemned and should forget about your this life, the person will form an identity that he belongs to a cursed class.
Why there is a lack of political will in your elites? My postulation will be simple: it is in their interest to keep the status quo.
The evolutionary history of human society reveals that interest groups will never yield their social positions voluntarily. Keeping a vast un- or under-educated serves the interest of the handful myopic privileged. This nevertheless harms the nation as a whole.
It is of vital importance for the elites to wage propaganda against un-, under-educated or un-, under-informed people. Perhaps majority of your 400 million fall into that category.
Lack of political will is a sign of system failure.
For instance, people’s call for transparency in Chinese officials’ assets/earnings, which I fervently support when posting in their forums, has met with huge lack of political will.
Nonetheless an enormous amount of your countrymen, including your elite Mr. Singh, never stop judging China in a pitiful and laughable way… , he also misjudged his city as well.
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