Imran Khan's two major demands in jail

[VCheng]

A member here named @VCheng said things would go back to normal, and it would be business as usual, and that's what we are seeing.

I know Pakistan better than most people on PDF. Obviously.

 

[Olympus81]

I feel the people do not have an appetite for protests. After the recent ones and the reaction of security forces, rangers, police, FC, and the army, people understand it's foolish to fight those with guns.

A member here named @VCheng said things would go back to normal, and it would be business as usual, and that's what we are seeing.

Had there been an appetite for protest, it would've happened after he was sent to jail, but from what I'm seeing and with my father currently in Pakistan, no one is on the street. Let me say one thing about PTI it's made of the mostly upper class and lower-mid to mid-class people; they have more to lose than the PDM Chawal people.

In terms of ‘no protests’, you are correct in your assessment that things seem to be going back to normal.

But how about in terms of the psyche of an average Pakistani whose seen the establishment and moral decay of its most reputed institution? Would that translate to even more deceleration of Pakistan’s economy and indirectly its long term survival?

 

[FuturePAF]

Excelled at CRICKET. so cricket has become the standard by which we choose our leaders now wow. maybe next time instead of elections we should hold cricket matches and appoint the man of the match as our PM.
apart from cricket what other skills/qualifications does IK has?? he is a graduate in PHILOSOPHY, POLITICAL SCIENCES. these are arts subjects. An enthusiast for college cricket at Keble, Paul Heyes, was instrumental in securing the admission of Khan, after he had been turned down by Cambridge.

there are dozens of better players than him who failed to even make it to the international cricket because they never had cousins like Majid Khan and Javed Burki who would have inducted them into national cricket team. did you ever saw IK's early bowling action when he first joined the national team?? his only talents were his cousins majid khan and javed burki.

you talk about IK's struggle!! so did he ever struggled to get a job?? or start a business from scratch or had to marry his sisters or pay rent of his house or pay the bills on time or the daily struggles which millions of Pakistani youths face??
he was born with a silver spoon. he never worked a day in his life.


ok his URDU is superb. now what about other things that i wrote!!!!!!!!

It’s not about his personal struggles coming up or even his qualifications now. Now he is being measured by the standards of past revolutionaries; if you’re in jail don’t crack or give in, stay defiant.

Now he is the leader of the movement of the people that do want the status quo, and “They” did that, not him. By so nakedly removing him from power with horse trading, AND uniting nearly ALL other parties into the PDM they raised his persona from a politician, that all analysts believed would lose the elections before the vote of no confidence, into the only alternative with a chance to change the rules of the game.

It doesn’t always take a great Intellect to call a spade a spade, but to unify the people it does take charisma. Look at how Lek Walesa led his country out of the communist era. Sure, his accomplishments are in cricket and philanthropy, but in those fields he has done things at world class levels. Most of the people would vote for him and many of them trust him to do what he says he will do. In politician that is a rare ability in such a diverse population as our own.

When was Pakistan ever a clear meritocracy? If they wanted that they should have left space for that. Otherwise they have only those people on the field today. Perhaps in a generation someone that has worked themselves from the bottom will be able to rise to the top, but for now we have to choose from amongst all the silver spoon fed elites.

I’m not naive to think IK has all the answers, in fact I only expect him to do a few things (one of which is a long term deal with the Afghans). the experts that will have to guide the nation will probably be the same regardless of government, but the reforms will be painful, as they were from communism to capitalism in Poland in the 90s.

The reforms the country need to be borne by the people and best face to make it more bearable is IK, because he will have the least love to spare the various elites. So IK will be best placed to raise taxes on the rich and not lose his government over it at the ballot boxes, because people will know some of the money will go to paying back loans but also growing the economy and providing social services (such as education and healthcare, which will make our labor more productive and grow the economy faster). The goal being to reverse the Brian drain in a generation the way Poland has done, for that you need a vision to bare the pain for a generation the way the Chinese have done.

Taxing the rich is also tied to preventing the rise of oligarchs which will hold back full employment in SMEs and and concentration of shares of the market that keep prices high preventing companies and people to rise in a meritorious. Enough taxes to spend on education and healthcare will allow us to catch up with the region and the improved indicators in women’s education and health should allow us more market access to European markets the way Bangladesh has done.

On key mistake of IK was trying to raise funding through charity like the dam fund. The nation has now realized the only way to fund our needs are to increase tax on unproductive industries like real estate and slightly help/subsidize productive industries so they can compete globally.

Who other than IK, who has been spurned by the entire elite, would be willing to take on the elite, and do reforms, perhaps even land reforms and much higher property taxes. My making him the outsider, he and his party has been put in a position to lead a people’s movement.

The path pakistan is currently going down it will turn into Ukraine at best (with their oligarchs) and North Korea as a worst case. Pakistan should be aiming to become like Poland; democratic and growing for 3 decades straight by opening up and not compromising its SMEs nor its democracy in the process.

Considering IK past statements, his personal demands are very reasonable. He doesn’t want any political future for his family, he doesn’t want any major wealth for himself, he just want to see the system reformed. He doesn’t even want to prosecute those that are imprisoning him as revenge, as he has said.

He wants glory and the people’s admiration, the elites want to see their businesses grow, and “they” want to see their prestige and global importance restored. All not mutually exclusive desires.

 

[PakFactor]

In terms of ‘no protests’, you are correct in your assessment that things seem to be going back to normal.

But how about in terms of the psyche of an average Pakistani whose seen the establishment and moral decay of its most reputed institution? Would that translate to even more deceleration of Pakistan’s economy and indirectly its long term survival?

Long-term, there is no growth strategy. It'll be stuck in a cycle of sorts economically. The Americans will keep Pakistan alive on a ventilator; that would be about it. People will adjust to their new lifestyle.

Remember, Pakistanis moan a lot but never pay a single penny to the federal exchequer to properly run this country. So there is money under the bed to continue living.

I know Pakistan better than most people on PDF. Obviously.

I never doubted that.

* Maybe sometimes a little bit. lol

 

[AZMwi]

It’s not about his personal struggles coming up or even his qualifications now. Now he is being measured by the standards of past revolutionaries; if you’re in jail don’t crack or give in, stay defiant.

Now he is the leader of the movement of the people that do want the status quo, and “They” did that, not him. By so nakedly removing him from power with horse trading, AND uniting nearly ALL other parties into the PDM they raised his persona from a politician, that all analysts believed would lose the elections before the vote of no confidence, into the only alternative with a chance to change the rules of the game.

It doesn’t always take a great Intellect to call a spade a spade, but to unify the people it does take charisma. Look at how Lek Walesa led his country out of the communist era. Sure, his accomplishments are in cricket and philanthropy, but in those fields he has done things at world class levels. Most of the people would vote for him and many of them trust him to do what he says he will do. In politician that is a rare ability in such a diverse population as our own.

When was Pakistan ever a clear meritocracy? If they wanted that they should have left space for that. Otherwise they have only those people on the field today. Perhaps in a generation someone that has worked themselves from the bottom will be able to rise to the top, but for now we have to choose from amongst all the silver spoon fed elites.

I’m not naive to think IK has all the answers, in fact I only expect him to do a few things (one of which is a long term deal with the Afghans). the experts that will have to guide the nation will probably be the same regardless of government, but the reforms will be painful, as they were from communism to capitalism in Poland in the 90s.

The reforms the country need to be borne by the people and best face to make it more bearable is IK, because he will have the least love to spare the various elites. So IK will be best placed to raise taxes on the rich and not lose his government over it at the ballot boxes, because people will know some of the money will go to paying back loans but also growing the economy and providing social services (such as education and healthcare, which will make our labor more productive and grow the economy faster). The goal being to reverse the Brian drain in a generation the way Poland has done, for that you need a vision to bare the pain for a generation the way the Chinese have done.

Taxing the rich is also tied to preventing the rise of oligarchs which will hold back full employment in SMEs and and concentration of shares of the market that keep prices high preventing companies and people to rise in a meritorious. Enough taxes to spend on education and healthcare will allow us to catch up with the region and the improved indicators in women’s education and health should allow us more market access to European markets the way Bangladesh has done.

On key mistake of IK was trying to raise funding through charity like the dam fund. The nation has now realized the only way to fund our needs are to increase tax on unproductive industries like real estate and slightly help/subsidize productive industries so they can compete globally.

Who other than IK, who has been spurned by the entire elite, would be willing to take on the elite, and do reforms, perhaps even land reforms and much higher property taxes. My making him the outsider, he and his party has been put in a position to lead a people’s movement.

The path pakistan is currently going down it will turn into Ukraine at best (with their oligarchs) and North Korea as a worst case. Pakistan should be aiming to become like Poland; democratic and growing for 3 decades straight by opening up and not compromising its SMEs nor its democracy in the process.

Considering IK past statements, his personal demands are very reasonable. He doesn’t want any political future for his family, he doesn’t want any major wealth for himself, he just want to see the system reformed. He doesn’t even want to prosecute those that are imprisoning him as revenge, as he has said.

He wants glory and the people’s admiration, the elites want to see their businesses grow, and “they” want to see their prestige and global importance restored. All not mutually exclusive desires.

Hold on brother. Calm down. You just wrote an essay about IK without addressing a single point that I raised. IK himself is responsible this political blunder.
When the first no confidence motion took place, he cooked up a fake American cypher story to avoid the motion. He later admitted on air that he was mislead by some party members regarding the cypher and that the cypher never existed.
Now that was his first mistake. Instead of learning from his mistake he made another by resigning from national assembly. If he would have remained in NA as opposition party he would have forced the PDM to appoint neutral army chief, neutral chief election commissioner and neutral NAB chairman.
PDM capitalised on IK's mistake and appointed their favourite persons.
Even with this he was still in game as he had provincial govt in 3 provinces Punjab, KPK, Azad Kashmir. Nobody would have been able to even touch him. He literally controlled the machinery and resources of three provinces. He even successfully survived the no confidence motion in Punjab. He was completely safe and PDM popularity was at all time low. But then he decided to shot his own foot by dissolving two assemblies. You never ever give up your trump cards in power politics. All he had to do was wait 3 months as the assemblies would have dissolved by themselves for next general elections. As soon as he dissolved the assemblies all hell broke loose and the PDM annihilated his party. They used all the government machinery and resources at their disposal to destroy his party and politics. Some of his party members told him not to dissolve the assemblies but he never listened and did it anyways. Now he is paying for his own political blunders.
When you put entire families of your political opponents in jails you better be prepared for the consequences. He was cautioned multiple times by army chief not to do this but he ignored.
Another one of his mistake was to prosecute Jahangir tareen and Aleem khan on corruption charges while fully ignoring the massive corruption of Usman Buzdar, Farah Gogi, zulfi Bukhari and Bushra bibi which was happening right under his nose. That's what the then ISI chief Asim Muneer tried to tell him. He showed him unprecedented proof of the corruption of his wife and her associates but he ignored and removed Asim Muneer as spy chief instead.
This is the ugly truth.

 

[HAIDER]

 

[muhammadhafeezmalik]

It’s not about his personal struggles coming up or even his qualifications now. Now he is being measured by the standards of past revolutionaries; if you’re in jail don’t crack or give in, stay defiant.

Now he is the leader of the movement of the people that do want the status quo, and “They” did that, not him. By so nakedly removing him from power with horse trading, AND uniting nearly ALL other parties into the PDM they raised his persona from a politician, that all analysts believed would lose the elections before the vote of no confidence, into the only alternative with a chance to change the rules of the game.

It doesn’t always take a great Intellect to call a spade a spade, but to unify the people it does take charisma. Look at how Lek Walesa led his country out of the communist era. Sure, his accomplishments are in cricket and philanthropy, but in those fields he has done things at world class levels. Most of the people would vote for him and many of them trust him to do what he says he will do. In politician that is a rare ability in such a diverse population as our own.

When was Pakistan ever a clear meritocracy? If they wanted that they should have left space for that. Otherwise they have only those people on the field today. Perhaps in a generation someone that has worked themselves from the bottom will be able to rise to the top, but for now we have to choose from amongst all the silver spoon fed elites.

I’m not naive to think IK has all the answers, in fact I only expect him to do a few things (one of which is a long term deal with the Afghans). the experts that will have to guide the nation will probably be the same regardless of government, but the reforms will be painful, as they were from communism to capitalism in Poland in the 90s.

The reforms the country need to be borne by the people and best face to make it more bearable is IK, because he will have the least love to spare the various elites. So IK will be best placed to raise taxes on the rich and not lose his government over it at the ballot boxes, because people will know some of the money will go to paying back loans but also growing the economy and providing social services (such as education and healthcare, which will make our labor more productive and grow the economy faster). The goal being to reverse the Brian drain in a generation the way Poland has done, for that you need a vision to bare the pain for a generation the way the Chinese have done.

Taxing the rich is also tied to preventing the rise of oligarchs which will hold back full employment in SMEs and and concentration of shares of the market that keep prices high preventing companies and people to rise in a meritorious. Enough taxes to spend on education and healthcare will allow us to catch up with the region and the improved indicators in women’s education and health should allow us more market access to European markets the way Bangladesh has done.

On key mistake of IK was trying to raise funding through charity like the dam fund. The nation has now realized the only way to fund our needs are to increase tax on unproductive industries like real estate and slightly help/subsidize productive industries so they can compete globally.

Who other than IK, who has been spurned by the entire elite, would be willing to take on the elite, and do reforms, perhaps even land reforms and much higher property taxes. My making him the outsider, he and his party has been put in a position to lead a people’s movement.

The path pakistan is currently going down it will turn into Ukraine at best (with their oligarchs) and North Korea as a worst case. Pakistan should be aiming to become like Poland; democratic and growing for 3 decades straight by opening up and not compromising its SMEs nor its democracy in the process.

Considering IK past statements, his personal demands are very reasonable. He doesn’t want any political future for his family, he doesn’t want any major wealth for himself, he just want to see the system reformed. He doesn’t even want to prosecute those that are imprisoning him as revenge, as he has said.

He wants glory and the people’s admiration, the elites want to see their businesses grow, and “they” want to see their prestige and global importance restored. All not mutually exclusive desires.

What is horse trading?? Imran Khan come into power through "horse trading", he used to get passed the bills through "horse trading", he did not have a legitimate government, he lost his government in VONC, which is a constitutional option to remove a government.

 

[kingQamaR]

for those who are laughing and making joke on Imran, think for a sec, that US can do this to any other country.and to PDM.

 

[muhammadhafeezmalik]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1692417712905924907

 

[maithil]

Pakistani public is being punished with backbreaking inflation. They can either protest and lose their livelihood/face jail or, keep working like animals to make ends meet. Neither is a good option. If they protest, they are likely to lose everything including their life.

 

[indushek]

Pakistani public is being punished with backbreaking inflation. They can either protest and lose their livelihood/face jail or, keep working like animals to make ends meet. Neither is a good option. If they protest, they are likely to lose everything including their life.

From what I am seeing or hearing, I feel that in Pakistan the Elites and Military have the money and benefits in the pockets.

The regular people must be swimming in unregulated economy, to make themselves stay afloat. Such people will loose even more, if they get caught by police etc. Ideology and love for a leader aside, one can't destroy one's own life and their family for them.

 

[maithil]

From what I am seeing or hearing, I feel that in Pakistan the Elites and Military have the money and benefits in the pockets.

The regular people must be swimming in unregulated economy, to make themselves stay afloat. Such people will loose even more, if they get caught by police etc. Ideology and love for a leader aside, one can't destroy one's own life and their family for them.

Exactly.. This is the only option they have. With inflation >30%, Not many can afford to lose even a week's worth of salary. It's a miracle that looting of market/banks has not started.

 

[muhammadhafeezmalik]

Important question
Is it right to beg the Yazidi government for facilities like AC in prison during the battle between right and wrong, while most of your arrested workers are rotting in the heat and filth of the ordinary jail??

 

[FuturePAF]

Hold on brother. Calm down. You just wrote an essay about IK without addressing a single point that I raised. IK himself is responsible this political blunder.
When the first no confidence motion took place, he cooked up a fake American cypher story to avoid the motion. He later admitted on air that he was mislead by some party members regarding the cypher and that the cypher never existed.
Now that was his first mistake. Instead of learning from his mistake he made another by resigning from national assembly. If he would have remained in NA as opposition party he would have forced the PDM to appoint neutral army chief, neutral chief election commissioner and neutral NAB chairman.
PDM capitalised on IK's mistake and appointed their favourite persons.
Even with this he was still in game as he had provincial govt in 3 provinces Punjab, KPK, Azad Kashmir. Nobody would have been able to even touch him. He literally controlled the machinery and resources of three provinces. He even successfully survived the no confidence motion in Punjab. He was completely safe and PDM popularity was at all time low. But then he decided to shot his own foot by dissolving two assemblies. You never ever give up your trump cards in power politics. All he had to do was wait 3 months as the assemblies would have dissolved by themselves for next general elections. As soon as he dissolved the assemblies all hell broke loose and the PDM annihilated his party. They used all the government machinery and resources at their disposal to destroy his party and politics. Some of his party members told him not to dissolve the assemblies but he never listened and did it anyways. Now he is paying for his own political blunders.
When you put entire families of your political opponents in jails you better be prepared for the consequences. He was cautioned multiple times by army chief not to do this but he ignored.
Another one of his mistake was to prosecute Jahangir tareen and Aleem khan on corruption charges while fully ignoring the massive corruption of Usman Buzdar, Farah Gogi, zulfi Bukhari and Bushra bibi which was happening right under his nose. That's what the then ISI chief Asim Muneer tried to tell him. He showed him unprecedented proof of the corruption of his wife and her associates but he ignored and removed Asim Muneer as spy chief instead.
This is the ugly truth.

You’re right that he doesn’t know how to play the political game, as the PM or how to manage the ebbs and flows of parliamentary democracy. What he is good at was exposing the decade of rot across the board in our system, which is part of why many of the elite are pushing back.

Although he did go overboard in some areas, and get distracted from his core responsibilities, which led to a witch hunt against hard working honest people, I will say many innocent people were swept up in that as well.

The first part of solving a problem (such as IK supposedly pausing not stop some CPEC projects, to read the fine print, if I remember correctly) was stopping the bleeding; the unsustainable projects, especially in the wake of COVID.

It’s not just that he is a novice, but his team around him seemed to be winging it. I got to meet and watch Zulfi Bukhari at Columbia University in 2019 when Wajahat Khan was co-moderating a panel with Indian media and I watched Wajahat’s face sink in disappointment when Zulfi started making emotional arguments.

I think IK wanted to govern the country similar to how it is done in a presidential system. According to Ayesha Siddiqa, IK only came to parliament 3 times.

When he ordered the dissolving of the provincial assemblies it was to trigger elections, but the system didn’t follow its own rules either. They way “they” have handled this was also overly harsh. It makes it seem no one knows how to handle this situation. That is also the ugly truth, and “they” have decades of experience, you would have thought they could have done it with more decorum, not smash through a window and grab a former PM like a thug off the street.

Frankly, if we had a real bottom up meritocratic democracy, not based on who you know, we could have produced better candidates for our elected leaders, but we are only given a few choices from amongst the elite. They made IK into what he is today. Once by letting him build up his corruption fighting and charity raising platform, through the 2010s, and then by allowing horse trading to not let him complete his term. Pakistanis know they have a parliamentary democracy but want to see their elected prime minister complete their 5 year term, so perhaps most people want a presidential system.

So now we are at an impasse. A large portion of the population trust only him, and if not him only the PTI. Crushing IK and the PTI will create many disaffected people amongst the spectrum, particularly amongst people with the skills and financing, that if willing to re-invest in the country, including but not limited to remittances, would raise foreign invested confidence and boost FDI. ~$28 Billion invest from the GCC will only support the economy over the next 3-5 years, in the same way $30 billion so far from CPEC over the last 10 years only grew the economy so much. The amount lost in remittances from overseas Pakistanis is more than what foreigners are willing to loan. I have personal acquaintances that live on 5th ave or park ave (I don’t remember at the moment which), here in New York, that fled after Bhuttos nationalization, then their companies were confiscated (he might be a member of one of the “22 families”). Even under IK they didn’t go back in a big way, as far as I know. They want real reforms and know Pakistan can be a faster growing market then the US. But if real reforms are not done, by 2028, We will be back to where we are today if not worse off.

Most countries have risen on the basis of cheap loans from local investors and FDI on the most favorable terms. Local and overseas Pakistani investors need to be attracted to productive industries.

That is why IMHO, IK as the next President would work, if coupled with a coalition government (perhaps with the self proclaim left wing PPP) focused on the economy but also improving social services, and carry out serious reforms. Perhaps even with Bilawal as the PM and SMQ can return as FM. Under this kind of government, Bilawal can make a name for himself and he and his party will have an incentive to improve governance in Sindh, Karachi, and Southern Punjab.

Having a left wing government will also help Pakistan pivot to a more “liberal” mindset if “they” hold them accountable to it, which could help pivot Pakistan’s international image.

This is not about loyalty to one party, but realpolitik and the stability of the nation within the confines of having something like a real democracy. (I tried to support PML-N when they were in power between 2013-2018 in hopes they would focus on water management, but when they showed no real interest and the PTI did, I began to support the PTI).

IMHO, this maybe the best way to move past this impasse, considering the various interest groups. PML-N can sit out the next 5 years in opposition and get a chance to come back in 2028 without facing much of the backlash for the needed reforms for come. In this way, most people could regain some level of trust in the national institutions … if and only if major reforms and tax changes are carried out.

It really comes down to carrying out those reforms but also improving social services and growing the economy so we can grow out of our mess (the population is expected to grow 60% over the next 30 years, our demographic dividend). We also need to stop saying everything is a part of CPEC (as was done with the Japanese funded Fort Munro Steel Bridge) and diversify our infrastructure projects with other countries particularly in the west where many of the diaspora live and can be of best use. More transparent western investments (funded by overseas Pakistanis and foreign investors) could have a built in export market access. Also, with improvements in rule of law, you will attract the best and brightest to come teach at Pakistani universities or help raise crop yields 2-3x fold as caretaker IT minister Umar Saif hopes to do.

So reconcile with the majority of the population’s aspirations and make the reforms (taxing the rich and cutting subsidies to unproductive industries) and attract investment into productive industries and not the real estate circus of plot trading on paper.

P.s. I never really watched cricket, so I didn’t care much that IK won the World Cup, only that it’s was a merit based win. Second, Pakistan is where india was 30 years ago, but if we learn the lessons from their experience, we could grow just as fast if not faster and catch up to them. No keeping up to regional health and education standards has us losing over 100,000 children to an early death unnecessarily and having our workers become uncompetitive, even when they go abroad.

2nd P.S. IK’s team failed in a lot of the execution and/or just maintaining what had already been built up.
1:41:00

 

[Fasbre2]

What is horse trading?? Imran Khan come into power through "horse trading", he used to get passed the bills through "horse trading", he did not have a legitimate government, he lost his government in VONC, which is a constitutional option to remove a government.

You got one effed up way of thinking, and the pdm is legitimate, cobbled together by the army using sacks of rupees.. that’s horsetrading..