Imran Khan Announces to give Pak Citizenship to Afghan Refugees

[TMA]

No one said they would be straight off...But my question is simple...Does being an officer after working your way up GUARANTEE that you are for the state? Well, Durrani and others like him, who worked their way up proved this theory wrong! Even politicians / party workers who worked from nothing also managed to loot and plunder this nation...THAT itself isnt a GUARANTEE of any form! So you using it as one is flawed to begin with!


I am with my country...It is doing good to award citizenship to those who have been on my land since they opened their eyes! It gives them a sense of belonging a reason not to hate...If they still hate, we can always throw them in the same pile as those Pakistanis who were born as citizens and managed to screw this country despite claiming openly they love it?!


They were equal citizens...Are you saying Islam preached inequality?


That could be one way but then that is not treating them equally and the idea of 3rd class citizens comes to mind like how the 1st generation Pakistanis felt in UK!


YES, that was WHEN THEY BETRAYED AFTER THE TREATY not before...Even the Prophet despite knowing what they were (since he was in direct contact with ALLAH) made a peace treaty...because he didnt want future people to think that they should INVADE/ PUNISH right away without giving them a chance...


Not only Hazrat Bilal many proved their loyalty to the cause many were killed....MANY were roasted in the sun not just Hazrat Bilal! Neither were all Africans automatically praised due to Hazrat Bilal nor were every Mekkan Arabs cursed because of Abu Lahab and his like! So attacking/ insulting/ generalizing/ collective assumption/ collective punishment is more of Israel's game not Muslims!


I just suggested that in the post you quoted

To invest on their land and push them back instead of investing in taking them in!


Yes but a father who spites venom against other people's children when his own cant prove right either is not exactly a father worth giving example of!

All I am saying they are as human as Durani our former ISI head and as human as Nawaz Shariff or as human as Altaf Hussain each of who was born, raised and a Pakistani citizen without needing to prove it yet they didnt do us any good! So such children of yours also exist, gives you no right to doubt other people's children!


That I agree but as we see our courts playing with us...Judges who are Pakistani citizens playing with our laws and doing no good to the country are ample examples of BS happening by our own "Pakistan loving citizens"!!

You are right. Pakistan already has traitors and she is struggling to sort them out. Why add to this burden then?As some of the Afghans will turn out to be traitors. No doubt. Why add to Pakistan's burden?

The best way to ensure that no Afghan turned Pakistani citizen would turn renegade is for repatriation, which is the best option. I was only advising military service as a second best option for those Afghans who say we are loyal as a test.

Belonging is not to the LAND. Belonging is to the Nation.
Belonging is not to the House. Belonging is to the Home (family).

No they were not equal. Islam does discriminate on certain things. I accept this.
Was it legally permissible for a non Muslim to become ruler of the State back in the day?
If he was truly equal than he would have that legal possibility.
Even in the modern world today, Pakistan does not allow a non Muslim to be the head of State constitutionally.
This is inequality. Now you want Pakistan to be non discriminatory towards the Afghan refugees should they acquire citizenship but you don't even mention that inherent inequality between a non Muslim Pakistani and a Muslim Pakistani! (Unless of course you disagree with the constitution and want it changed to allow the legal possibility of a non Muslim Pakistani becoming head of state).
Also as a tangent, Islam does not allow a woman to be the leader of a Nation. Do you think that is equality?
I know Pakistan has had female leaders, but since when is Pakistan following Islam properly?


Forget what the 1st, 2nd whatever generation of Pakistanis felt in the UK. Stop thinking at from from a refugee perspective. Look at it from a national Pakistani perspective. Pakistan should not copy everything the UK does.

The point I was making was that some Jewish individuals had renegaded on their treaty and the WHOLE of their tribe were punished. Not just the individuals.
Or do you think that EVERY member of the tribe(s), were involved in that treason?
To make your initial example more accurate, perhaps Pakistan should negotiate a treaty with the Afghan refugees as a whole? So if few Afghan individuals commit treason or antistate actions, then those individuals meet the Rope and the remaining Afghan refugees are then exiled...? What do you think of this???

I disagree with your opinion that I am casting venom on others children. I am merely looking out for my children. If you consider this to be venom then so be it.

(Also by this subtle ad hominems , it does not add to your argument).

A child to the family is presumed loyal until proven otherwise.
An outsider wishing to join my family especially if he comes from a family which is anti my family is disloyal until proven otherwise. (He may not agree with his family but his simple word is not enough)
If I were to let him into my family based simply on his word and should he hurt my family then I would be a criminal father and should he not hurt my family then simply foolish.

I understand that the refugees are having a hard time. No one wants to be in such a difficult place. I get it.
I would not want this for myself or my loved ones.
But this is looking at if from an individual perspective and state craft is not that. One must look at it from the National perspective.

 

[Dubious]

You are right. Pakistan already has traitors and she is struggling to sort them out. Why add to this burden then?As some of the Afghans will turn out to be traitors. No doubt. Why add to Pakistan's burden?

Some "will" is future tense based on speculation....I dont live off speculations...I live off proof that xyz (the person who will get the citizenship) is prone to BS! THAT can only be done after a proper procedure which I believe would be in place because that is how GOVERNMENTS run ...with a proper procedure to bring about the change necessary!

Now, say you go to xyz land, from your flags we see UK....Now UK when the 1st generation of brown people came in, there was "speculations" did we brown people prove them wrong? These speculations also caused alot of problems esp to integrate...These suspicious nature caused the white to alienate the brown causing a whole generation to be raised ignorant of being in UK and making UK more like their village at home! Did it harm UK? Initially maybe a bit...But eventually it ironed out!

I dont expect the Afghanis to integrate at once...But for sure they are not as different as the whites vs brown that played in UK!

Sure some of them may hate us for the wars fought on their land....sure some are brainwashed into thinking we killed their relatives because no mother/ relative thinks they belong to bad families I mean look at Mariyum who thinks her dad is some superhero and sees no harm in forging documents to prove his innocence!

I dont deny there is a burden that we may need to absorb...But do you actually believe EACH one who will be given citizenship and izzat (that comes with the citizenship) and not spat at like Mohajirs always complained....would not come around? My only saying is give them permanent residence which can be made to citizenship if they behave otherwise strip that and send them back....But why judge before trial?

Was it legally permissible for a non Muslim to become ruler of the State back in the day?

It was not ONLY because the states back then were Muslim and thus they couldnt have non Muslim rulers not because the non Muslims werent good enough! They were good enough to become generals/ advisers and many other positions of power!

Now you want Pakistan to be non discriminatory towards the Afghan refugees should they acquire citizenship but you don't even mention that inherent inequality between a non Muslim Pakistani and a Muslim Pakistani! (Unless of course you disagree with the constitution and want it changed to allow the legal possibility of a non Muslim Pakistani becoming head of state).

The reason for this is the constitution which was based on a Muslim nation and thus by default cant have a non Muslim head but we have ministers from minorities...THAT has little to do with their competence/ loyalty and more to do with the understanding of the Muslim nation concept!

Also as a tangent, Islam does not allow a woman to be the leader of a Nation. Do you think that is equality?
I know Pakistan has had female leaders, but since when is Pakistan following Islam properly?

I think the condition is ONLY for an Islamic state...Pakistan as you stated doesnt follow Islam properly so it doesnt apply....the context of the hadith was for the Persian empire...Here is the full hadith:

During the battle of Al-Jamal, Allah benefited me with a Word (I heard from the Prophet). When the Prophet heard the news that the people of the Persia had made the daughter of Khosrau their Queen (ruler), he said, "Never will succeed such a nation as makes a woman their ruler."

Reference : Sahih al-Bukhari 7099
In-book reference : Book 92, Hadith 50

Forget what the 1st, 2nd whatever generation of Pakistanis felt in the UK. Stop thinking at from from a refugee perspective. Look at it from a national Pakistani perspective. Pakistan should not copy everything the UK does.

I am not asking anyone to copy anyone or anything but giving you an example from the history books! A living example!

The point I was making was that some Jewish individuals had renegaded on their treaty and the WHOLE of their tribe were punished. Not just the individuals.
Or do you think that EVERY member of the tribe(s), were involved in that treason?

The whole tribe wasnt punished! I am sorry collective punishment was never a part of Islam it is however a part of Israeli culture! You can read a bit about the treaty and how NO TRIBE was punished collectively EVER! http://www.arabnews.com/hudaibiyah-turning-point-history-islam

To make your initial example more accurate, perhaps Pakistan should negotiate a treaty with the Afghan refugees as a whole? So if few Afghan individuals commit treason or antistate actions, then those individuals meet the Rope and the remaining Afghan refugees are then exiled...? What do you think of this???

Collective punishment has never been and still isnt a part of Islam!

I disagree with your opinion that I am casting venom on others children. I am merely looking out for my children. If you consider this to be venom then so be it.

Your own are looked after...What you are doing is not trusting your own state to protect you....And you are asking "others" to prove their loyalty and put trust in a state when you dont even trust your own state?

A child to the family is presumed loyal until proven otherwise.
An outsider wishing to join my family especially if he comes from a family which is anti my family is disloyal until proven otherwise. (He may not agree with his family but his simple word is not enough)
If I were to let him into my family based simply on his word and should he hurt my family then I would be a criminal father and should he not hurt my family then simply foolish.

No you wont! You arent god and dont know the future! SURE you can speculate and be ZALIM to the "outsider" for which you are ALSO answerable to ALLAH or you can trust your nation that you claim are loyal to?!

I understand that the refugees are having a hard time. No one wants to be in such a difficult place. I get it.
I would not want this for myself or my loved ones.
But this is looking at if from an individual perspective and state craft is not that. One must look at it from the National perspective.

I am looking at it on both levels...Individual coz I dont believe everyone represents everything...Those criminals / corrupts of Pakistan are still Pakistani but doesnt mean every Pakistani is a crook! Likewise, there are bad seeds in Afghani nation but not every Afghani deserves to be called crooked!

 

[Samurai_assassin]

Afghans are a dangerous group of people. They will attack and cause ravage wherever they are. It is best for Pakistan to send them home respectfully.

 

[I.R.A]

I have been mentioned by someone 1 too many times...Might have mistaken you for it...SO for that I am sorry.

No problem. Happens.

As for citizen not being cheap...You are comparing a person who has lived their whole life or 30 yrs of their life on my land with 1 who just came to earn money?

And you assumed that the one who lived here for 30 years, didn't come here to earn money and save his life? What was the motive behind millions of them moving here? Do you know how much it has hurt the locals who were already living here? Starting with financial hurt to emotional hurt, you are missing the whole point here, if we were so much against we would never let them settle in our cities right next to our houses, what changed us in our views on them?

If I live in West for 30 yrs, you can be sure I would be a citizen there...But if I came to West for few weeks praised it I will never be given citizen...

If you live in West, and the day they tell you to remove your scarf, you will.

Eva tried being cheerful with Pakistani flag and we felt insulted, she apologized, but do these Afghans ever show moral support to condemn their Kabuli brothers when they burn our flags, do they ever publicly condemn Afghan based terrorists that have brought us harm only?

Do you know these Afghan refugees in Islamabad had their own schools, wouldn't go to local schools, they occupied the whole sectors and turned it into everything Afghanistan. Destroyed basically. And at times they formed a mob and clashed with locals.

Why am I comparing with west is because it is logical to give citizenship to a person who knows no other land as home except this one rather than one who came to earn money and got love as a bonus!

Yeah as if Afghans were never shown any love. Name another country where refugees are living in bungalows in capital city of that country. It happens in Pakistan only.

It is not irrelevant...How is it less relevant than you wanting a gora to glorify Pakistan and thinking that only a gora can bring us to such heights? But when using the gora's model of who should be given citizenship, you dont wish to follow their thoughts? What is the use of offering citizenship to Eva when your (common Pakistani's) thoughts dont align with hers (she would be shocked that people living for 30 yrs on a land cant call it its own)?

Well you know lets offer the Pakistani citizenship to Afghani cricketers, that is their team playing in Asia cup, after all they learnt playing cricket here in grounds of Islamabad and Peshawar. Lets see if they denounce the Afghan citizenship and accept Pakistani one ... publicly.

How was it insulting? By managing to explain to you even though I would prefer not to be @mentioned by anyone I dont know? So you like strangers mentioning you around?

It is always insulting (or more like hurtful) to get blamed for something which you never did nor intended to commit.

Afghans should get Pakistani citizenship only to track them and their activities, make it possible for us to get a lead in case of an incident (God forbid). That is the only motive and incentive ...........

 

[Dubious]

And you assumed that the one who lived here for 30 years, didn't come here to earn money and save his life? What was the motive behind millions of them moving here? Do you know how much it has hurt the locals who were already living here? Starting with financial hurt to emotional hurt, you are missing the whole point here, if we were so much against we would never let them settle in our cities right next to our houses, what changed us in our views on them?

Well, MOST Pakistanis didnt really let them settle well...alienated them from the beginning so if you want to talk about emotional pain...it runs both ways!

As for allowing them in...It wasnt the local's choice....it was the govt's decision to be part of taking in some millions of refugees and getting paid to look after them! Yes, UNHR pays for the refugees taken in by countries and also pays to rehabilitate them....The schools and whatnot that was to be built using the money paid to take in refugees...NGO in Eastern countries are known to be corrupt ESP when high end ladies who run them are themselves wives/ sisters/ cousins of the looters!

If you live in West, and the day they tell you to remove your scarf, you will.

Why would I? You just assumed that? The reason people go to the West is because such absurd nonsense is not expected! There are laws that protect that piece of cloth on our heads!

The DAY the West says that, those who really don for their religion will fight for it or return (if not citizens and their voices arent heard).

If you cant trust Pakistani laws, then the problem lies with the laws or implementation of them not the people! So how can you pick on 1 segment of society when the same law failed on ALL other segments? Your problem is you dont trust the laws...Coz if you did, you would know that once bagged and tagged (becoming citizens your CNIC controls your bank account and your sim) so you literally are tagged! Now, claiming THEY can get fake documents, well hello, Mariyum Nawaz Pakistani citizen ALSO forged fake documents and dared to present them in court she got away with lighter than a slap on the wrist! So yes, the laws suck BIG time not just for Afghanis but in general! So dont attribute the wrongs to the people known as Afghanis but to our laws that also failed us big time!

Eva tried being cheerful with Pakistani flag and we felt insulted, she apologized, but do these Afghans ever show moral support to condemn their Kabuli brothers when they burn our flags, do they ever publicly condemn Afghan based terrorists that have brought us harm only?

Do you want them to? I mean not every Pakistani is responsible for other Pakistani who blow themselves up (please dont say they arent any)...Not every Pakistani is responsible for criminals who do a crime with our passport! Just like not every Muslim is responsible when a moron blows himself up while saying ALLAH-HU-AKHBAR!

Why should they condemn? Because you havent taken them in...You havent made them yours...so in BOTH your books and theirs they are still Afghani! You spit at them, you hate them and now you want them to condemn a nation you claim they belong to even when they say no...so questions arises would you listen if they condemn? You cant expect things from people who you dont call your own! If they condemn and tomorrow YOU send them back, they will be killed...If you give them safety and assure them with PR or citizenship and then expect them to behave as citizens that is expected but before you do anything and expectations are sky rocketing...is irrational!

Do you know these Afghan refugees in Islamabad had their own schools, wouldn't go to local schools, they occupied the whole sectors and turned it into everything Afghanistan. Destroyed basically. And at times they formed a mob and clashed with locals.

I am aware of that...The same Refugee schools also schooled other refugees from other places...I know this from a refugee friend...her family was given citizenship coz this was back in early 90s...

Sure refugees would clash with locals if all they hear day and night is go back! Sure their ancestors might have done something to instill hate in you but if since they (those born 10-30 yrs ago) opened their eyes is only hatred from your side coz they werent old enough to understand what their forefathers did....can you blame them for clashing for survival?

I am not saying illegal occupation is good...Our govt failed us in that coz they were supposed to look after these refugees and prepare them to go back but somehow...the money disappeared and we took in more than we could bite...MISMANAGEMENT which is a theme of every previous govt PMLN AND PPP alike!

Yeah as if Afghans were never shown any love. Name another country where refugees are living in bungalows in capital city of that country. It happens in Pakistan only.

Again our govt is to blame as to how this can happen! I dont support refugees living in bungalows! I dont support them owning business that is why I want them to have citizenship so we can trace how their money moves....And which govt sector is responsible for mismanagement?!

Well you know lets offer the Pakistani citizenship to Afghani cricketers, that is their team playing in Asia cup, after all they learnt playing cricket here in grounds of Islamabad and Peshawar. Lets see if they denounce the Afghan citizenship and accept Pakistani one ... publicly.

Sure go ahead....If you want a public drama go for it...But whatever xyz cricketer does isnt a representation of EVERY refugee! He does it for himself, his money his fame nothing to do with millions of others who arent in such a position!

Afghans should get Pakistani citizenship only to track them and their activities, make it possible for us to get a lead in case of an incident (God forbid). That is the only motive and incentive ...........

THIS is why I have been suggesting either give them citizenship and tag them....OR give them PR.....we can still track them with that but we wont be able to deal with them if they run back to Afghanistan coz they arent Pakistani! However, we will be able to allow those who want to be clean and pay tax to be promoted to citizenship when they meet the criteria (THIS is what I call process/procedure)

 

[TMA]

Some "will" is future tense based on speculation....I dont live off speculations...I live off proof that xyz (the person who will get the citizenship) is prone to BS! THAT can only be done after a proper procedure which I believe would be in place because that is how GOVERNMENTS run ...with a proper procedure to bring about the change necessary!

Now, say you go to xyz land, from your flags we see UK....Now UK when the 1st generation of brown people came in, there was "speculations" did we brown people prove them wrong? These speculations also caused alot of problems esp to integrate...These suspicious nature caused the white to alienate the brown causing a whole generation to be raised ignorant of being in UK and making UK more like their village at home! Did it harm UK? Initially maybe a bit...But eventually it ironed out!

I dont expect the Afghanis to integrate at once...But for sure they are not as different as the whites vs brown that played in UK!

Sure some of them may hate us for the wars fought on their land....sure some are brainwashed into thinking we killed their relatives because no mother/ relative thinks they belong to bad families I mean look at Mariyum who thinks her dad is some superhero and sees no harm in forging documents to prove his innocence!

I dont deny there is a burden that we may need to absorb...But do you actually believe EACH one who will be given citizenship and izzat (that comes with the citizenship) and not spat at like Mohajirs always complained....would not come around? My only saying is give them permanent residence which can be made to citizenship if they behave otherwise strip that and send them back....But why judge before trial?


It was not ONLY because the states back then were Muslim and thus they couldnt have non Muslim rulers not because the non Muslims werent good enough! They were good enough to become generals/ advisers and many other positions of power!


The reason for this is the constitution which was based on a Muslim nation and thus by default cant have a non Muslim head but we have ministers from minorities...THAT has little to do with their competence/ loyalty and more to do with the understanding of the Muslim nation concept!


I think the condition is ONLY for an Islamic state...Pakistan as you stated doesnt follow Islam properly so it doesnt apply....the context of the hadith was for the Persian empire...Here is the full hadith:




I am not asking anyone to copy anyone or anything but giving you an example from the history books! A living example!


The whole tribe wasnt punished! I am sorry collective punishment was never a part of Islam it is however a part of Israeli culture! You can read a bit about the treaty and how NO TRIBE was punished collectively EVER! http://www.arabnews.com/hudaibiyah-turning-point-history-islam


Collective punishment has never been and still isnt a part of Islam!


Your own are looked after...What you are doing is not trusting your own state to protect you....And you are asking "others" to prove their loyalty and put trust in a state when you dont even trust your own state?


No you wont! You arent god and dont know the future! SURE you can speculate and be ZALIM to the "outsider" for which you are ALSO answerable to ALLAH or you can trust your nation that you claim are loyal to?!


I am looking at it on both levels...Individual coz I dont believe everyone represents everything...Those criminals / corrupts of Pakistan are still Pakistani but doesnt mean every Pakistani is a crook! Likewise, there are bad seeds in Afghani nation but not every Afghani deserves to be called crooked!

Prevention is better than cure so to speak. And a lot of times prevention depends upon "speculation" in terms of medicine and health. Trade also depends upon "speculation". Scientific enquiry also depends upon "speculation"....

If I were an ethnic Briton I would not be happy with the immigration policy of the UK.
Why do you think the UK is leaving the EU? Basically immigration and that from EU states who have no territorial dispute with the UK. But I am not an ethnic Briton.

Like you have corrected me in that there are many Pakistanis who are disloyal, why add to the burden? It is utter foolishness. First things first. How does adding millions of Afghans as citizens help in sorting out disloyal Pakistanis?
I understand giving them some sort of legal status but citizenship is just madness. Anyway should they not already have some legal status anyway? If they do not, why not? Are they then "illegal refugees"?

The question to an Afghan ought to be: Pakistan vs Afghanistan in a border skirmish. Who are you with?
Just paying taxes and being law abiding "legal refugee" is not enough to be eligible for citizenship.

Regarding Islam and inequality, you can spin it any way you like. There were certain roles that non Muslims were not allowed. And the reason which prevented them from being eligible from those roles in State was simply not being a Muslim. Even in the Constitution of Pakistan of Pakistan you can see this.
I understand that non Muslims can have senior roles no doubt and even in the case of Pakistan they have. But this does not mean Pakistan give citizenship to Afghan refugees just because they say they are loyal.

About the Jewish tribes, there is a conflict of opinion on this.
So a tribe reneged on its treaty, and the combatants were executed and the non combatants were exiled. Of course some individuals were spared from this due to exceptional reasons (like becoming Muslims)...but this was exceptional.
Why were non combatants exiled? Women and children were exiled and they were not involved in the treason. Some people might consider women and children being exiled for the crimes of some of their men folk as collective punishment.
http://answering-christianity.com/bassam_zawadi/information_about_the_jewish_tribes.htm
Read some these articles.


Why are you giving me living historical examples then? If not to take something from them?

Oh by the way, I do not consider every Afghan a crook. Why do you think that?

I do not expect loyalty from them and why should they be loyal to Pakistan?
If one of them does commit an anti-state act, I will not be angry at him, rather at those Pakistanis who let him acquire citizenship.
My beef is not with Afghan refugees, after all they are trying to look after their interests, my beef is with Pakistanis!

The bottom line is: Is it in the national interests of Pakistan to give citizenship to millions of people from an anti Pakistan state just on their word?
Most Pakistanis say NO!

 

[ScreamLikeMe]

It will be an honour and gesture of goodwill for Pakistan if they grant citizenship to Rohingyas too and Syrian Arabs too. Finally Pakistanis are also an Islamic republic. Pakistanis are good people they know how to share their food with others.

 

[Dubious]

Prevention is better than cure so to speak. And a lot of times prevention depends upon "speculation" in terms of medicine and health. Trade also depends upon "speculation". Scientific enquiry also depends upon "speculation"....

No scientific inquiry depends on hypothesis ...there is a difference ...quick google showed me:

A hypothesis in a scientific sense is an idea based on existing evidence, that can be tested. Speculation isn't necessarily based on anything, and may not be provable.

If I were an ethnic Briton I would not be happy with the immigration policy of the UK.
Why do you think the UK is leaving the EU? Basically immigration and that from EU states who have no territorial dispute with the UK. But I am not an ethnic Briton.

So you agree your forefathers deserved to be hated and alienated when they went to UK? After all the White British always "speculated" the browns for decades!
Just putting you in their shoes to see if the answer remains similar?

Like you have corrected me in that there are many Pakistanis who are disloyal, why add to the burden? It is utter foolishness. First things first. How does adding millions of Afghans as citizens help in sorting out disloyal Pakistanis?

That is the thing...No one will add millions that is not logical...There arent that many to add....tens of thousands maybe!

How does adding millions of Afghans as citizens help in sorting out disloyal Pakistanis?
I understand giving them some sort of legal status but citizenship is just madness. Anyway should they not already have some legal status anyway? If they do not, why not? Are they then "illegal refugees"?

If they had legal status they would be forced to work and pay tax! By definition the refugee doesnt have paperwork and hence no legal trail to tax! They are not illegal just lacking paperwork hence called refugees not tourists/ PR/ or even resident of Pakistan!

The question to an Afghan ought to be: Pakistan vs Afghanistan in a border skirmish. Who are you with?
Just paying taxes and being law abiding "legal refugee" is not enough to be eligible for citizenship.

It is the criteria that MOST countries around the world use..When applying for citizenship your tax record is the 1st to be scrutinized before anything else! Money matters!

Regarding Islam and inequality, you can spin it any way you like. There were certain roles that non Muslims were not allowed. And the reason which prevented them from being eligible from those roles in State was simply not being a Muslim. Even in the Constitution of Pakistan of Pakistan you can see this.

I dont understand 1st you claim Pakistan isnt Muslim enough to have / follow similar rules yet you give it as an example? Muslims were not allowed certain roles like they didnt need to give zakat because they dont understand the concept and it would be harming them more to force it on them than doing good which Islam stands for!
Instead they were already paying a different form of tax which served a different purpose - services for them ...

I understand that non Muslims can have senior roles no doubt and even in the case of Pakistan they have. But this does not mean Pakistan give citizenship to Afghan refugees just because they say they are loyal.

1st you want to check their loyalty and ask for this and that now you raised the bar...You are like that evil boss who tells you that you will be promoted if you do these tasks then questions the person why they actually thought that?

About the Jewish tribes, there is a conflict of opinion on this.
So a tribe reneged on its treaty, and the combatants were executed and the non combatants were exiled. Of course some individuals were spared from this due to exceptional reasons (like becoming Muslims)...but this was exceptional.
Why were non combatants exiled? Women and children were exiled and they were not involved in the treason. Some people might consider women and children being exiled for the crimes of some of their men folk as collective punishment.
http://answering-christianity.com/bassam_zawadi/information_about_the_jewish_tribes.htm
Read some these articles.

The answer I gave you was from this very website...I suggest you to read carefully not between the lines!

Why are you giving me living historical examples then? If not to take something from them?

I am hoping you take something from that like ISLAM does not equal to evil inequality!

Oh by the way, I do not consider every Afghan a crook. Why do you think that?

Half those opposing the notion state so and some of your posts like the 1 above contradict themselves where at 1 point you want to give citizenship if they prove themselves loyal then question why give it Afghan refugee like one with some superiority complex (no offense but what do you make out of that?)

I do not expect loyalty from them and why should they be loyal to Pakistan?
If one of them does commit an anti-state act, I will not be angry at him, rather at those Pakistanis who let him acquire citizenship.
My beef is not with Afghan refugees, after all they are trying to look after their interests, my beef is with Pakistanis!

That is an interesting case.....Should I put this in context...You do sound like any white Britisher from the 1970s when they saw Brown people! They didnt think Browns were even human enough to understand the "complex sophisticated white way of living!"

The bottom line is: Is it in the national interests of Pakistan to give citizenship to millions of people from an anti Pakistan state just on their word?

The question is who is giving MILLIONS of people? 2ndly we are not talking about people in Afghanistan but those born on Pakistani soil and / or have lived here all their lives doing halal business! Those involved in crimes should just be sent back and shot if they tried to cross over coz I dont believe in criminals being given any sanctuary BUT not every Afghani is a criminal and like I said before and I will say it again...Lets start with PR...Because we need to start tracking them individually not through intelligence gathering!

 

[Cthulhu]

This guy is an idiot.

 

[El Sidd]

This guy is an idiot.

You should self immolate in protest

 

[Cthulhu]

You should self immolate in protest

#notmyprimeminister

 

[TMA]

No scientific inquiry depends on hypothesis ...there is a difference ...quick google showed me:




So you agree your forefathers deserved to be hated and alienated when they went to UK? After all the White British always "speculated" the browns for decades!
Just putting you in their shoes to see if the answer remains similar?


That is the thing...No one will add millions that is not logical...There arent that many to add....tens of thousands maybe!



If they had legal status they would be forced to work and pay tax! By definition the refugee doesnt have paperwork and hence no legal trail to tax! They are not illegal just lacking paperwork hence called refugees not tourists/ PR/ or even resident of Pakistan!


It is the criteria that MOST countries around the world use..When applying for citizenship your tax record is the 1st to be scrutinized before anything else! Money matters!


I dont understand 1st you claim Pakistan isnt Muslim enough to have / follow similar rules yet you give it as an example? Muslims were not allowed certain roles like they didnt need to give zakat because they dont understand the concept and it would be harming them more to force it on them than doing good which Islam stands for!
Instead they were already paying a different form of tax which served a different purpose - services for them ...


1st you want to check their loyalty and ask for this and that now you raised the bar...You are like that evil boss who tells you that you will be promoted if you do these tasks then questions the person why they actually thought that?


The answer I gave you was from this very website...I suggest you to read carefully not between the lines!


I am hoping you take something from that like ISLAM does not equal to evil inequality!


Half those opposing the notion state so and some of your posts like the 1 above contradict themselves where at 1 point you want to give citizenship if they prove themselves loyal then question why give it Afghan refugee like one with some superiority complex (no offense but what do you make out of that?)



That is an interesting case.....Should I put this in context...You do sound like any white Britisher from the 1970s when they saw Brown people! They didnt think Browns were even human enough to understand the "complex sophisticated white way of living!"


The question is who is giving MILLIONS of people? 2ndly we are not talking about people in Afghanistan but those born on Pakistani soil and / or have lived here all their lives doing halal business! Those involved in crimes should just be sent back and shot if they tried to cross over coz I dont believe in criminals being given any sanctuary BUT not every Afghani is a criminal and like I said before and I will say it again...Lets start with PR...Because we need to start tracking them individually not through intelligence gathering!

I look at it from the national interests of Pakistan. Is that difficult to understand?

Overall the Pakistani contribution to the UK is minimal.
Do you know Pakistanis are disproportionately represented in jails?
Do you know the amount of economic fraud Pakistanis do in the UK?
Do you know about sex gangs and drugging up teenage girls? Mainly a Pakistani problem!
Like I said if I were an ethnic Briton and was leader I would have a very strict immigration policy. But I am not.

Also my forebears came legally to the UK. They were not illegal or refugees.
Have you seen the way illegal immigrants are treated by the UK Border agency?


How many illegal Afghans would be eligible for citizenship? I suspect it is not tens of thousands but millions. As you say there is no record of them.

Now having a legal status like resident is something else. But Imran was just merely "suggesting" citizenship. Does Imran think that they are only two categories: citizen and illegal immigrant?


Look you brought up the example of non Muslim citizens in Olden Muslim states. Not me. You do know that this example is not accurate as Afghans are majority Muslim any way.

About the Jewish tribes and breaking their treaty. My point is that women and children were exiled for the crimes of their menfolk. I suggest you let this sink in!!!
Or do you disagree with this history. Do you think that the women and children were not exiled? Or do you think that the women and children were also complicit in the crime of breaking the treat(ies)?

I agree that every Afghan is not a criminal and many are doing an honest living. This is not my problem. I even say that even if there were no criminals in the Afghan refugees or even no terrorism, I would still not advocate giving citizenship.
My problem is that in case of a border skirmish where will his loyalty lie? If it lies with Afghanistan then he can do his honest living in Afghanistan.
I also say that it is unreasonable to expect loyalty from Afghans (even if they are born in Pakistan) to Pakistan, especially when Afghanistan is right next door who will exploit the split loyalties. It is but natural for Afghanistan to this. And it is but natural for Afghans to have a natural loyalty to Afghanistan. Is that difficult to understand?

I also say that it is in the interests of the Afghan refugees of getting citizenship just not in the interests of Pakistan. And my beef is with Pakistanis who think it is.

Money is NOT the most important thing. LOYALTY is! As you have said that even Pakistanis are not loyal. There is no point adding to this burden even if it is a few thousand (which I doubt, rather millions).

Money does not buy love. Passports do not buy patriotism. And PR will also not get you patriotism....

(By the way these ad hominems about me being like white Britisher thinking Browns are subhuman are fallacious arguments. Or implying that I think all Afghans are subhumans. They do not help your arguments.)

 

[Dubious]

I look at it from the national interests of Pakistan. Is that difficult to understand?

Not at all....How is the national interest based on speculations?

Do you know Pakistanis are disproportionately represented in jails?

statistics?

Do you know the amount of economic fraud Pakistanis do in the UK?

Not just UK everywhere!

Do you know about sex gangs and drugging up teenage girls? Mainly a Pakistani problem!

Yes...and YET British Pakistanis pride themselves with their British accents and passport, or are they ashamed? Do they not choose to live in UK and not return to Pakistan? Are they not grateful their ancestors "CHOSE" / "strive" to get them that passport?

Do you know about sex gangs and drugging up teenage girls? Mainly a Pakistani problem!

Yes, sad thing is UK did nothing to their PAKISTANI citizens! I object to that..They should just be hung! THIS is the draw back of being nice....capital punishment should be available for MOST heinous of crimes and sex gangs is as heinous as it comes!

Also my forebears came legally to the UK. They were not illegal or refugees.
Have you seen the way illegal immigrants are treated by the UK Border agency?

Not all came legally...Just coz "YOURS" did doesnt account for ALL!

There are Palestinian refugees in Europe and all over the world. There were Kashmiri refugees who sought asylum in UK..then there were also Bangali refugee right before Bangladesh got independence....

How many illegal Afghans would be eligible for citizenship? I suspect it is not tens of thousands but millions. As you say there is no record of them.

THAT is why we need to start recording them!

Citizens are recorded! Aliens and illegal / undocumented people arent! I think documenting them is more important for national interest! How hard is that to understand?

Now having a legal status like resident is something else. But Imran was just merely "suggesting" citizenship. Does Imran think that they are only two categories: citizen and illegal immigrant?

That is why I suggested residence ...ANY means to give them papers that can be traced/ documented!

I dont know what IK thinks but as you said it was just a suggestion to give them paper that can be traced and is law biding!

Look you brought up the example of non Muslim citizens in Olden Muslim states. Not me. You do know that this example is not accurate as Afghans are majority Muslim any way.

I didnt bring it up you brought it up as an example ...to tell me that inequality exists in Islam! I told you inequality isnt Islam's way it is the israeli way!

About the Jewish tribes and breaking their treaty. My point is that women and children were exiled for the crimes of their menfolk. I suggest you let this sink in!!!

Or do you disagree with this history. Do you think that the women and children were not exiled? Or do you think that the women and children were also complicit in the crime of breaking the treat(ies)?

I suggest you read history first before commenting ANYTHING on it! Seriously, LET THAT SINK IN! You are not just misquoting whatever you get your hands on but also out of context! No, women and children were never asked to pay the price of ANYTHING! THAT is Hinduism for you! Even in the worst state (state of war) women and children are to be spared and you think in peaceful situations, women and children are exiled for fun? READ HISTORY IN CONTEXT

I agree that every Afghan is not a criminal and many are doing an honest living. This is not my problem. I even say that even if there were no criminals in the Afghan refugees or even no terrorism, I would still not advocate giving citizenship.
My problem is that in case of a border skirmish where will his loyalty lie? If it lies with Afghanistan then he can do his honest living in Afghanistan.

I have agreed with this...But as I have said you lay on speculations we dont know if EVERY Afghani would behave the way you speculate! Because that is all you got...suspicion!

I also say that it is unreasonable to expect loyalty from Afghans (even if they are born in Pakistan) to Pakistan, especially when Afghanistan is right next door who will exploit the split loyalties. It is but natural for Afghanistan to this. And it is but natural for Afghans to have a natural loyalty to Afghanistan. Is that difficult to understand?

THIS split loyalty scenario isnt as black or white as you put it! Even when Pakistan does something wrong, I dont see British Pakistani getting confused and siding the wrong! There are American Pakistanis who have been in uniform in army. I dont see them flinch during duty! There are Pakistani Americans who gladly gave up their passports...There are Pakistani Germans who gladly gave up their passports for a better future for their children....I dont see them flinching ...Unless you think Pakistani are superior in some form?!

There are Australian Muslims who have served in Iraq and Afghanistan! So, kindly quit living off some tv dramas!

You can not assume that ALL Afghani will turn traitors! You living off that fear and people like you make all the wrong decisions and cause MORE harm to the national interest than good!

Is that difficult to understand?

Money is NOT the most important thing. LOYALTY is! As you have said that even Pakistanis are not loyal. There is no point adding to this burden even if it is a few thousand (which I doubt, rather millions).

Money does not buy love. Passports do not buy patriotism. And PR will also not get you patriotism....

Yet there is no acrrate way to judge loyalty! An American soldier shooting random Muslims overseas thinks he is loyal to his country! Even if it means shooting unarmed Muslims! A trigger happy israeli thinks he is loyal to his country when he/she beats or worse kills a Palestinian without cause! So there is no clear way to judge loyalty! You have your ways so do Americans and israeli!

implying that I think all Afghans are subhumans.

Your behaviour suggests the opposite!

 

[Pakistani E]

I think in the end we will have bigger KPK in Punjab.

Kpk was a former Jat, Gujjar and Hindu and with significant Baniya, Rajput and Brahmin population before they migrated and colonized it.

Today kpk(former Dardic-Punjabi)is like 75% Tribal and 25% Kasabgars (Inferior slaves) who speaks Pashtu language.

Same with Western punab. Difference will be 20/30% Pashtun on top while 70% as Kasabgars, A caste system.

I wonder what will "Rajputs" will react to this in future, according to my Naru rajpRa friends from Pakistan sistuation is already worse in Potohar.

You are deluded. This isn't the 15th century, nor do "Punjabis" or others now listen to their elders if a barbarian horde comes marching. We will make sure Pakistan doesn't become another Afghanistan.

 

[El Sidd]

They should be given a quota