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Immigrants will have to prove patriotism to get British passport

I forgot to add earlier Sinoindusfriendship I am an American Indian. Only a very small fringe of American Indians want to have the land back. We recognize the need to change and adapt with the times. What we fight to keep is our culture during change. The Palestinians could learn something from us in this respect. Indians and Pakistanis could as well.

So if I come over to your house today, kill off half your family and drive the rest into the streets, and if I have enough weapons and friends in the police so I can hold on to it, you would be fine with it?
 
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So if I come over to your house today, kill off half your family and drive the rest into the streets, and if I have enough weapons and friends in the police so I can hold on to it, you would be fine with it?
Probably not. But his descendents might. All countries are the results of conquests some time in the past. With your argument, how much regression do you want people to apply? I am willing to bet that you would stop the regression when the argument becomes applicable to YOUR people.
 
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Probably not. But his descendents might. All countries are the results of conquests some time in the past. With your argument, how much regression do you want people to apply? I am willing to bet that you would stop the regression when the argument becomes applicable to YOUR people.

To take your argument the other way, how long do you have to hold out before you can get away with a crime? 50 years? 10 years? 5?
 
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To take your argument the other way, how long do you have to hold out before you can get away with a crime? 50 years? 10 years? 5?

You should also have said:

"How long until you hold on to the stolen land/property before returning to its rightful owner? And if you don't regard it as a 'big deal' then why don't you just hand over all your precious belongings -- and your virgin daughter as well while you are at it!" :cheers:
 
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some members want this thread to be titled.

"islamists will have to prove patriotism to get British passport"
 
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To take your argument the other way, how long do you have to hold out before you can get away with a crime? 50 years? 10 years? 5?

"The needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few or the one" this is a quote from one of my favorite movies. And though it was written for a movie it's truth and meaning are very to the point. There are times you have to set aside personal wrongs for the good of the many, people, or nation. if a wrong does not directly effect the well being of a people or nation. Then justice should be pursued at all costs till the wrong is made right. this is experienced everyday in law enforcement.

If the wrong directly effects a people, or nation justice should be pursued but in the absence of victory it should be realized there comes a point where a settlement needs to come. American Indians realized this fact after years of resistance. Most Palestinians realize this and want to negotiate. Indians and Pakistanis need to realize this and negotiate. India will never be victorious over Pakistan, Pakistan will never be victorious over India, Palestinians will never be victorious over Israel. Europe has many examples of this over the last few hundred years as the boundaries of countries changed. The Europeans adapted. were those directly effected happy. I would bet most were not.

I should add the enemy of this is Pride and Politicians.

Pride wants to strike back no matter the cost when it feels wronged. When it becomes a problem is when it controls all actions. Pride is to be tempered and controlled not it control you.

Politicians (at least most) are concerned more for power, control, and to some extent money. They will use pride of a situation to fan the flames if it furthers their own goals. It is rare when you find a politician with a genuine heart to serve and who does not let pride control him. such a man is usually not corruptible. India and Pakistan have no shortage of politicians who use the tensions between the two countries to whip up support among the people to keep them in power.
 
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And what about indians of Uk:toast_sign:

Loyalties of indians cannot be changed even after living 3 generations out of india.
They will only be patriotic indians and this cannot be taken out of them.
Hell you cannot convince an indian to go to non indian barber for a simple hair cut.... so on

btw, what about Pakistan? I think our parliament members should be asked to prove their loyalty towards Pakistan by keep all their money in Pakistan as long it is earned in Pakistan.
 
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To take your argument the other way, how long do you have to hold out before you can get away with a crime? 50 years? 10 years? 5?
Really? So in effect you are advocating that the sin/guilt of the father MUST be visited upon his children? I do notice how you avoided my question.
 
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Currently the most violent of these is Islam and Hinduism. Christianity places a distant 3rd. In times past though Christianity was #1. can anyone name how many trouble spots of the world are being stoked by Islamic extremism? all in the name of Allah!

see when you start doing a 1,2,3... of the believes of billions...the whole thing sheds logic.
 
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Mr. Nazir Ahmed should work on these issues instead of getting into Pakistani politics.
 
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You are missing the point. The power of democracy is not that the potato seller is so smart or well informed. He may be, but in all probability he is not. No the power of crowds is that since the majority has not the slightest clue what the hell is going on, they are as likely to swing one way as the other. This leaves the people who actually have some idea how things should go to tip the balance to slightly in favor of the "right" decision.

Look up Francis Galton's ox weighing experiment. Basically it is this: the median value of the crowds' guess at the weight of an ox beat all the best estimates of several cattle experts. It was within 2 pounds, for a 1000 pound beast, this is fairly impressive. Of course, most of the crowd had not a clue, but the wildly ranging guesses canceled each other out, allowing those who had a good idea to determine the outcome.

This also applies to trivia shows. If a contestant "Asks the Audience" to chose the correct answer out a choice of several possible, the audience is correct almost 95% of the time, even on incredibly difficult questions. Why? Because those who don't know the answer either abstain or guess randomly, allowing those who do know to skew the vote towards the correct answer.

Read The Wisdom of Crowds if you are interested. My point is this democracy works beautifully if everyone is allowed to make an independent decision. The problem is of course that this rarely happens in reality. There are political machines, bribery, coercion, patent lies, and crowd psychology to consider. That does not mean democracy is flawed, just that individuals have to make sure they are actually reaching their own decisions, and concerned citizens try and counteract propaganda. Think about it, why does Wikipedia work when every moron can freely edit it?

1. Large pool of qualified experts---everbody...
2. Good moderators to cull the fluff and bullSh*t

Democracy works, you just need somebody to keep a muzzle on the rabble rousers. In the U.S this is done simply through the amount of money needed to launch an effective campaign(You tell me the effectiveness of that...There are some surprisingly wealthy morons), other countries have byzantine application processes and limits on hate speech(Germany). If it works, emulate it.

The elites can't make the decision for everybody, in fact they are not even as good as it as they imagine, or need to be.

@Tang0

I like your well thought out response and will look into what you have said, also the fact that you referred Francis Galton shows you are amongst the intelligent here. I would nonetheless like to spend sometime discussing my grudge against the concept of 'Representative democracy', that which has been implemented by countries like Britain, India, Canada and Pakistan.

I won't be able to read the Wisdom of crowds going in depth as of this moment but i would like to read some abstracts and some articles on it so that my concept won't be as skewed.

First I would like to head to the library and find the Canadian Democracy book to look for some references that I remember reading around four years ago.

Thanks for the insight will get back to you soon
 
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Thomas and gambit,

The situation with native Americans is different to the Palestinians in that most Americans acknowledge the injustices perpetrated to the natives, and native Americans enjoy some measure of reparations, although nothing can make up for their past mistreatments.

In Israel, on the other hand, Arabs are still treated as second class citizens. Israeli Arabs in East Jerusalem have their homes forcibly bought out be Jewish 'investors'. Arabs find it much harder, if not impossible, to get building permits in Jerusalem, while Jews are encouraged to build there. And there are lots of other examples where Arabs are considered alien enemies even if they are Israeli citizens. This is not Arab propaganda; there are Jews (Jews Not Zionists) who oppose Israel on moral grounds.

I would recommend you watch the BBC documentary Promises and Betrayals: Britain and the Struggle for the Holy Land which shows the history of how Israel was created.

Leaving that aside, I agree that the people born in Israel should not be punished for their parents' crimes. They deserve to live a normal life free of terror attacks, just as Palestinians deserve to live a normal life free of daily humiliation.

The Israeli strategy is to wear down the Palestinians and maybe it is working. Certainly the only true friend they have left is Iran; everybody else has abandoned them. The Arab governments issue meaningless 'protests' declarations, mostly to divert attention away from domestic problems, but do little else to help the Palestinian cause.

I think the Palestinians will eventually give up and there will be a two state solution. And they will coexist in an uneasy fashion until, after a 100 years when the truth about Israeli machinations emerges, these two countries will go through a period of reconciliation. Like India and Pakistan, the Arabs and Jews have much in common, culturally, so there is no reason why they can't be friends eventually.
 
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My sentiment is with both Durran and SinoIndus - however; I would point out that governments must not be seen to be acting against the letter and spirit of their own laws.

I very much agree that freedoms or civil liberties must not be thought of as license for anarchy or anti-social behaviour.

And I also agree that the larger problem is not immigration itself but the kinds of ideas that seem to animate the immigrants.

With your permission, I would like to point to a phenomenon: increasingly both nationally and internationally, a greater number of persons whoi previously were from the so called "heartland", that is to say, not from port cities or sophisticated metropolitan centers, are now part of the national and international opinion - and some of, actually most of, the kinds of ideas we see gaining currency among large numbers are ideas that appeal to this particular group. This is not just a Pakistani or Indian Phenomenon, it's really international - and if we keep this in mind, we will see much polarity in opinion for a while to come - ideas such as our common humanity as a bridge between us, will remain sidelined for some time to come, it seems to me.

It is predominantly Asia populase fault for not assimilating with the society. There are numerouse example of europeans, early africans and latinos that have assimilated to the western culture and have made great contribution to the western societies. The problems are we Asian. And the real reason is because we think we are smarter then them. It is that simple!! Yet we Asian cannot even run our own countries properly.

There are great aspect of western philosophies that we as Asian's need to learn, yet we do not. And the stupid reasons we give, we have culture. That sentence just erk's me!!! One needs to incorporate both culture properly and use to your advantage.
 
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It is predominantly Asia populase fault for not assimilating with the society. There are numerouse example of europeans, early africans and latinos that have assimilated to the western culture and have made great contribution to the western societies. The problems are we Asian. And the real reason is because we think we are smarter then them. It is that simple!! Yet we Asian cannot even run our own countries properly.

There are great aspect of western philosophies that we as Asian's need to learn, yet we do not. And the stupid reasons we give, we have culture. That sentence just erk's me!!! One needs to incorporate both culture properly and use to your advantage.
Amazon.com: Can Asians Think? Understanding the Divide Between East and West (9781586420338): Kishore Mahbubani: Books
Can Asians Think? This is obviously a sensitive question. In this age of political correctness that we live in, just imagine the uproar that could be caused if I went to Europe or Africa and posed the question "Can Europeans think?" or "Can Africans think?" You have to be Asian to ask the question "Can Asians think?"

Given its sensitivity, let me explain both my reasons for posing the question and the context in which I do so. First, if you had to ask one single, key question that could determine the future of the globe, it might well be Can Asians think? In 1996 Asians already made up about 70 percent of the world population (3.5 billion out of a global population of more than 5 billion). By conservative projections, the Asian population will increase to 5.7 billion in 2050 out of a global population of 9.87 billion, while the populations of North America and Europe will remain relatively constant at 374 million and 721 million, respectively. This means that North America and Europe's share of the world population will drop from 20 percent to about 11 percent. Clearly, in the past few centuries Europe and, more recently, North America have carried the larger share of the global burden in advancing human civilization. By 2050, when Europeans and North Americans make up one-tenth instead of one-fifth of the world's population, would it be fair for the remaining 90 percent of mankind to expect this 10 percent to continue to bear this burden? Realistically, can the rest of the world continue to rest on the shoulders of the West? If the Asian population doubles in the next fifty years, will Asians by able to carry their fair share of this burden?

Second, in asking this question I am not suggesting that individual Asians cannot think. Clearly Asians can master alphabets, add two plus two to make four, and play chess. However, throughout history there have been examples of societies that have produced brilliant individuals, yet collectively experienced a lot of grief and dislocation. The classic exammple of this is the Jewish soceity, which has contributed more brillian minds, in proportion to its numbers -- from Einstein to Wittgenstein, from Disraeli to Kissinger -- than any other society. Yet, as a society they have suffered greatly, especially in the past century of so. Let me stress that I am not speaking about the travails of Israel in modern times. I am speaking of the period from A.D. 135, when the Jews were forced to leave Palestine, to 1948, when Israel was born. Will a similar fate befall Asian societies, or will they be able to think well and ensure a better future for themselves?

Third, the time scale in which I am posing this question is not days, weeks, months, years, or even decades. I am looking at the question on the time scale of centuries (this is especially appropriate since as I write we stand two years, away from the new millenium). Arguably, the future course of world history in the next few centuries, as I will explain later, will depend on how Asian societies think and perform.

In a multiple-choice examination format, there would be three possible answers the question Can Asians think?: Yes, No, or Maybe. Before we decide which choice to tick, let me make a case for each answer.

No, They Cannot Think
I will start my discussion with the reasons for the No answer, if only to refute any critics who may suggest that the question itself manifestly absurd. If one looks at the record of the past thousand years, one can make a very persuasive case that Asians, Asian societies that is, cannot think.
I highly recommend this provocatively titled book, especially for Asians who would like nothing more than to mindlessly play the blame game on the West for all the ills in Asia. Maoist China violently ejected Western thoughts and methods and the result is that half a century of backwardness eclipsed the greatness of historical China, leaving ordinary Chinese using Western technology to console themselves through boasting about China's accomplishments that happened centuries ago. The irony cannot be more obvious.

Every Asian co-worker that to whom I lent my copy, and I am Asian myself, all managed to find something disturbing about the current Asian societies in the truths that Mahbubani dared to expose. Mahbubani did not write this book, which a compilations of his essays, to be popular. He wrote the book to provoke self criticisms and he did Asians everywhere, in the West and in Asia, a favor with this book. Read it if any Asian here have any degree of intellectual honesty.
 
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I want to order the book from the Canadian Amazon website.. but i see two editions by the same author!! One was recently published and the other published in 2002..

The edition you've listed is for 45 dollars and the older edition is for 3 dollars.. i guess i'll go with the older edition
 
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