Ilyas Kashmiri - still alive

[evolutionist]

Its better to take a bullet up in the chest and die as a soldier than to live as a prisoner for eternity particularly in an "indian jail". lol
This is not me but one of General Musharaf's quotes.

Oh really, then Musharraf should heed his own advice and return to Pakistan to face possible prosecution and not hide in Western democracies like a dog with tail in between his legs. Oh what a brave commando !

 

[Khajur]

The News report you posted has not mentioned Ilyas beheading anything. So the first article you've posted from Indian Express is mainly sensational tripe edited to making Pakistan look as bad as possible. The BBC report also makes no mention of this supposed 'action' in Kashmir, let alone of Musharraf rewarding him personally.

Looks guys, i know u consider Indian Express or any other indian media source as unreliable and sensational.

But if ask some one from india,he would tell u ...Indian Express is among the few serious news papers in india.

 

[DaRk WaVe]

Looks guys, i know u consider Indian Express or any other indian media source as unreliable and sensational.

But if ask some one from india,he would tell u ...Indian Express is among the few serious news papers in india.

Well u do one thing, read the whole unedited article, here...

24-yr-old sepoy was beheaded in 2000 LoC raid

4th para is a must for u...

 

[PakShaheen79]

I think if one follow Geo and Jang group covering before and after Lal Masjid operation... It will become evident what this bunch of idiots are up to.

Rest a terrorist is a terrorist... Doesn't matter what kind of background he had.

 

[All-Green]

Looks guys, i know u consider Indian Express or any other indian media source as unreliable and sensational.

But if ask some one from india,he would tell u ...Indian Express is among the few serious news papers in india.

Well, we can certainly take this article as a deliberate exaggeration...and once again an attempt to build hate where there is no reason...

Indian express maybe a serious newspaper, but when it comes to Pakistan, i am sorry to say that the Indian level headedness (which i admire) takes leave and a desire to malign Pakistan takes over...

This manifests itself in every possible aspect of Pakistan India relationship...

Some may call it authentic pressure tactics but i think it does nothing but build hate in both countries...its not like we are soviet union and USA...we have common borders and lots of common things which can be focused upon to bring about a change in the minds...we are like two brothers who needed their own space and left the family house...whereas we certainly need our space...it does not mean we are always at daggers drawn...

Musharraf realized this and was trying to usher in a new era of Peace between the two nations and he did play his part rather well...things were looking up...but we are now again back to where we started from...

I honestly feel like India also needs just a little excuse to sidestep all progress made and go back to square one...the threat to stop the peace process on every incident is in itself something which we should all oppose...reason is very simple...if we have peace and even little dependence on each other...we shall slowly eliminate the hate and secure a better future for our peoples...this stalemate will only help the war mongers to promote more hatred and create more doubt about the entire concept of peace...

For any relationship to work, sincerity in thought is a first requirement and the government and the media are the only channels which can influence the people who for the most part will easily be convinced if we have a good 5-10 years period of goodwill without mudslinging and ultimatums to each other...

Believe me that we Pakistanis have seen firsthand more terrorism that you can imagine and even though the popular perception is that India may have a hand in this, the average man will always appreciate if we have a good relationship...such a step forward will only eliminate doubts about each others intent...that is critical for all of us...whether we are big or small...

 

[FireFighter]

Oh really, then Musharraf should heed his own advice and return to Pakistan to face possible prosecution and not hide in Western democracies like a dog with tail in between his legs. Oh what a brave commando !

So long as Musharraf's military history is concerned, there should be no doubt in anyones mind about his capabilities as a soldier, SSG commando, ...and one of the most influential military Generals in modern history. How many military Generals have made so many headlines as him in recent history?

Doesn't mean that Musharraf is an angel. He's a badarse General still. But I believe he will be back in Pakistan and settle the lawsuits against him. So dont worry, just sit back and watch till then

 

[Nemesis]

Indian express maybe a serious newspaper, but when it comes to Pakistan, i am sorry to say that the Indian level headedness (which i admire) takes leave and a desire to malign Pakistan takes over...

I see, what you're saying is that when it comes to Pakistan, Indians become blithering hate filled lunatics.

That's absolute nonsense. I understand people's hatred for the Times of India, however to suggest that the TOI's vitriol against Pakistan is standard fare for all Indian newspapers is rubbish. Perhaps instead of condemning all Indian reports on Pakistan, i think some members would do well to consider the possibility that perhaps there is some truth in what is posted. I do not mean this particular report, but not all that is posted in Indian newspapers is an attempt to malign Pakistan.

 

[Khajur]

Well u do one thing, read the whole unedited article, here...

24-yr-old sepoy was beheaded in 2000 LoC raid

4th para is a must for u...

emo,

This incident happened in way back in yr 2000 and indian express is only quoting what appeared in pakistani media at that time.

Since IE cant confirm if he was actually rewarded ,hence stated "hewas said to have been felicitated "

Even Hamid mir clearly stated that new reports with pics of Kashmiri carrying "the head of an Indian officer" had infact appeared in pakistani media at that time.

 

[All-Green]

So long as Musharraf's military history is concerned, there should be no doubt in anyones mind about his capabilities as a soldier, SSG commando, ...and one of the most influential military Generals in modern history. How many military Generals have made so many headlines as him in recent history?

Doesn't mean that Musharraf is an angel. He's a badarse General still. But I believe he will be back in Pakistan and settle the lawsuits against him. So dont worry, just sit back and watch till then

Musharraf was a spirited individual and not a coward but still his influence as a general is not that much, his influence is as a head of state and not as commander of Army...a general's job is to lead his troops and make sure that they are in control of the situation and on top of everything..

Kargil and Wana operations were under Musharraf's tenure as Army Chief and from all aspects of war he did not show the genius one associates with an exceptional commander...on the contrary many things in these operations raises doubt about the preparation and long term strategic thinking that had gone into the operation...while one can argue endlessly about the political implications and their impact upon the operations i have mentioned; even from military aspects the planning and execution had many deficiencies..

On the other hand the methodical approach and absolutely high quality of leadership displayed by Gen. Kiyani clearly highlights how an Army should be lead by its COAS...To me Gen. Kiyani is one of the best proven battlefield commander we have had...and about time i say...

 

[Kasrkin]

I'd say that Musharraf was a good general. He was a good officer too despite a tendency to be over-confident. Much of the time his confidence was well deserved (I ofcourse am telling you this after having spoken to his batch mate or two) and many a times it got him in trouble. He performed well enough on the battlefield and he was not lacking in courage.

From a professional stand point his career was sound. It had to be for him to reach the level he did before Nawaz Sharif made him an army chief (despite more qualified generals around no doubt).

Kargil I'd say was well done. No one says it was an easy operation. Even the Indians have grudgingly admitted how close to ruin they were. It was the politics that screwed everything up, Musharraf failed to have included that in his calculations fully. I believe his life is rather ironic, because he made the same mistake with his commanders that in a way Nawaz made with him. He let military operations be influenced by politics in a way that was negative for the country’s interests.

In Wana he was calling the shots but he was not leading the operations. He just panicked, came under political pressure from the US, ordered our boys in without all the proper training, orientation or equipment. Then he came under pressure from his own country's politicians that he couldn't handle (there was a lot of pressure there no doubt) so he called the breaks when the terrorists were feeling the heat, seeing the militants striking back he had to hit the accelerator again only to push the breaks when domestic pressure mounted again. This confused everyone, including the military, and you can imagine what it did to our chances of a comprehensive success in Waziristan.

It should be noted though that Musharraf was never in operational command of operations in FATA. He told his commanders what he expected from them but he was obviously not involved in a way an army chief should be, we all know that. He was primarily the president of Pakistan and was not involved with army matters as a chief should be, as he admitted himself. Kayani in fact, as DGMO was more involved than he was. That is not to say that Kayani did a bad job, he is a superb soldier. But Musharraf lacked in his rule as a general/politician. We know he was fairly good as a general in Kargil, his only failing was his failure to predict the scale of diplomatic and political pressure and Sharif’s reaction. But when he became a politician himself he made the same mistake, he like so many of our politicians, lost purpose other than protecting his position in the short term.

Kayani and Musharraf are both accomplished generals, no doubt. I’d say Kayani is better, but Musharraf wasn’t bad. I believe Musharraf’s principle fault was his inability to understand that leading a country is not like leading an army. An army doesn’t really ask ‘why are we doing this?’ they just follow orders and defeat the enemy. A country asks that a lot. An army also doesn’t stop fighting because the enemy pressured them to, but Nawaz Sharif did that. Kayani, like is to be expected from a man of his calibre, observed closely and learned from Musharraf’s mistakes. Thus we see him jealously keeping the army away from anything resembling politics. If only our politicians had the ability to learn from their predecessors.

 

[All-Green]

emo,

This incident happened in way back in yr 2000 and indian express is only quoting what appeared in pakistani media at that time.

Since IE cant confirm if he was actually rewarded ,hence stated "hewas said to have been felicitated "

Even Hamid mir clearly stated that new reports with pics of Kashmiri carrying "the head of an Indian officer" had infact appeared in pakistani media at that time.

Oh my man...a sepoy was beheaded and 1 lakh Rupees was awarded for bringing back the head of an Indian officer?

Forget it my friend, this whole news stinks...

BTW, let me tell you that whereas certainly war is terrible, Pakistan Army is quite professional and has regard for opponents...

I have never heard my father say that Indians are cowards, he admires them as opponents and broke the myth in my childhood that Indians don't know how to fight...My father is from a village which had a Muslims and Sikhs as its inhabitants and there was mutual respect for each other even in competition...

He was a brave man (very unlike me) and despite being a battery commander was carrying out recon patrols around his area of operations, since there were frequent low level infiltration attempts around his sector...Now this was 71 and Pak Fauj had every reason to be extremely vengeful against India for what had been going on in East Pakistan...
One fine morning they encountered a lost Indian Sepoy who mistook my father's sergeant (bearded fellow) for a sikh and ventured to ask him for directions about his unit, he realized his folly immediately but to his surprise he was given directions and sent off towards the Indian side...

After the ceasefire there were few destroyed Indian tanks on the Indian side of the border and one fine morning a couple of Pakistani officers had the idea to get their photos taken on one of these tanks...needless to say that the Indian sentry was pretty shaken but was reassured by my father that we are just here for a snap and you do not need to worry son...
i still have the picture and will scan it if i find it...

These may seem little things to you but they show that we do not want to behead all Indians, we are humans too and when given the choice will not go for the violent approach...
As soldiers our army will fight to the death and i know that many Indians who have fought us would testify to that...we also know that Indians are not losers but have always put up an excellent fight...

However it takes immense moral fiber to appreciate the quality of one's opponents especially on a national level...from this stems mutual respect and then we can have a more equal footing relationship...demonizing without conclusive evidence or any reason is something we have to stop doing...where there is a reason to condemn any action, that should be done maturely...
I see that the Indian media and movie industry is very big and they do not let go of any opportunity to provide anti Pakistan mirch masala for the public consumption...however these things will never be of long term benefit to anyone...

And yes, Hamid mir and a lot of other Pakistani Journalists are also yellow journalists who perpetrate concocted stories and half baked theories as facts...so i am not saying that Pakistani media is all good...however India's anti Pakistan smear campaign is much more organized and large scale and hence will be much more successful in changing the Indian mindset...

from cricket diplomacy to post mumbai war mongering...we have indeed gone back a decade or two...i am afraid time is no body's friend here...the more indecision and hesitation to mend the relationship, the more influence these haters will enjoy over the masses...

We can have honorable working relationship if we let go of the prejudice and complexes which mar our history...
If India stops treating Pakistan as a little punk whose each and every action and move in the world arena has to be blocked and is portrayed as a drama...i am sure the Pakistani public would not oppose any peace proposition...if this trend continues i do not think we are in for a good century...

So the onus lies on you young Indians too, we all see here that we can coexist...better convince our fellow countrymen on the need to move forward...

 

[All-Green]

I see, what you're saying is that when it comes to Pakistan, Indians become blithering hate filled lunatics.

That's absolute nonsense. I understand people's hatred for the Times of India, however to suggest that the TOI's vitriol against Pakistan is standard fare for all Indian newspapers is rubbish. Perhaps instead of condemning all Indian reports on Pakistan, i think some members would do well to consider the possibility that perhaps there is some truth in what is posted. I do not mean this particular report, but not all that is posted in Indian newspapers is an attempt to malign Pakistan.

No you do not see, or you would have checked your abrasive comment...

I did not say lunatics in the first place...there is a difference between hate filled lunacy and a bias due to mistrust which clouds the judgment...i understand the difference between these two and chose my words accordingly...had i wanted to say lunatics...what could have stopped me on this forum?
Do not conclude such rude things from my posts on your own...do not take insult where it is not meant...

I said there is a tendency to do this and that is evident in most things we can witness sitting here in Pakistan, of course we are not privy to the drawing room talk in your home so cannot comment on the Indian public sentiment and neither did i do this, my comment is valid when it comes to Indian media and government and their statements regarding Pakistan's role in the war on terror, its sincerity in curbing terrorism and having a better relationship with India...what good is this constant criticism and threatening posture doing for Pakistan India future?

 

[Javed3]

kidwaibhai

"" when you plot against the state you should be killed. no matter who you are.""

Please dont confuse the writ of a slavish government with the writ of the State of Pakistan.

It is a fact that PA is not neccessarily used to establish the writ of the State. It is often misused to establish the writ of a government in service of the US and foreign powers.

I personally find nothing wrong with slavery as long as our people can sleep with a full belly. Unfortunately we are happy with peanuts.

 

[spliterz]

Shocking Story..

 

[FireFighter]

Musharraf was a spirited individual and not a coward but still his influence as a general is not that much, his influence is as a head of state and not as commander of Army...a general's job is to lead his troops and make sure that they are in control of the situation and on top of everything..

Kargil and Wana operations were under Musharraf's tenure as Army Chief and from all aspects of war he did not show the genius one associates with an exceptional commander...on the contrary many things in these operations raises doubt about the preparation and long term strategic thinking that had gone into the operation...while one can argue endlessly about the political implications and their impact upon the operations i have mentioned; even from military aspects the planning and execution had many deficiencies..

On the other hand the methodical approach and absolutely high quality of leadership displayed by Gen. Kiyani clearly highlights how an Army should be lead by its COAS...To me Gen. Kiyani is one of the best proven battlefield commander we have had...and about time i say...

From military perspective, Kargil was one hell of an operational success. it was carried out according to the plan. count the casualties and you would know. the credit goes to musharraf. However it was a political failure at the end due to incompetence of our political leaders.

and I second Kasrkin about wana. Wana's operation wasn't strategically planned under Mushy.