If the F/A 18 Super Hornet Wins the MMRCA

[hecj]

f/a-18 sh winning mmrca is hardly an impact, on the other hand with the Chinese production line of derivatives localized J-11(SU-30 variants) and J-15 and J-10B balances everything alone the numbers would be higher then 126 pretty much neutralize mmrca.

It could be an impact from an angle as the technology is well tested and superior but then again J-10B and the number increase up to the end of the decade 2020 could play its part in balancing things up to a certain point thus again the cycle continues..

in few years who knows india may launch another mrca?

 

[Luftwaffe]

Reality check when was mrca launched what year is today?
Let the last 126 mrca th enter the production then we'll talk about "few year", 40 years past mig-21 is still in indian air force so let the winner of mrca spends 40-50 years then launch next spmrca.

mrca has no impact on China atleast with Chinese hands full on multiple high tech projects already. on the other hand its a long way down Pakistan will eventually come out with something to balance things up its been like for years now.

 

[hecj]

last time when u heard abt sub deals,last time when u heard abt pakfa,last time when u heard abt billion dollar deals with u.s,last time when u heard abt 4 aircraft carriers launching. and this list goes on.......,thise things have taken place since few yrs back may be 2-3 yrs.

we are not taking this to attack china,atleast we shud have enough to protect our self.with pakistan case we had enough and have enough and will have more than enough.

 

[Water Car Engineer]

Reality check when was mrca launched what year is today?
Let the last 126 mrca th enter the production then we'll talk about "few year", 40 years past mig-21 is still in indian air force so let the winner of mrca spends 40-50 years then launch next spmrca.

issued in 2004. The RFIs were initially sent to four vendors: Dassault (Mirage 2000-5 Mk.2), Lockheed Martin (F-16C and D), Mikoyan (MiG-29OVT), and Saab (JAS 39 Gripen).

Know Dassault Rafale replace Mirage 2000, F16IN block 60 super viper replace F-16C and D,MIG 35 replace MIG 29OVT,Saab Gripen stays same and Eurofighter and F-18 Super Hornet added. And a WHOLE bunch of extra added bonuses if their fighter is choose..

 

[notorious_eagle]

Well i think we need to go a little deeper then that....F-18 will definitely put a seal on more F-16's for Pak, no??? I am expecting atleast this much from Babus to put up...Now it will depend what they(read PAF) will go after to counter MRCA deal, one way would have been to ask for more F-16's... Now if the money situation does not change PAF will have no option but to go for J-10's or whatever China offers(probably on soft loans).....

Lets get off our high horse here good friend; let me make it clear that hypothetically if India purchases the Super Hornets, it would not mean US wont release additional F16's to Pakistan. US will sell weapons to both India and Pakistan, problems would arise if the US decides to sell the Raptor. PAF has the infrastructure to support around 110 F16's and this is exactly the number PAF is looking to raise by 2015. Its very likely that PAF will exercise its option of purchasing additional 18 Block 52's, many reports are stating that PAF has already exercised this option and in future many F16 airframes could be acquired through EDA. Put these F16's through MLU Tape 4 and they come out as good as new comparable to the Block 52's.

PAF is not looking for a particular plane to counter the MRCA; their options are set and they intend to raise a fleet that consists of JF17, FC20 and F16's. F7's with relatively new air frames will serve as point defence fighters and ROSE Upgraded Mirages serving the role of strike aircrafts. A fleet consisting of JF17's, F16's and FC20's armed with 5th Generation WVR and BVR Missiles backed up by AWACS and SAM support is one hell of a defence if you ask me. IAF will have to come up with something very creative to break through this defence

 

[deckingraj]

Lets get off our high horse here good friend; let me make it clear that hypothetically if India purchases the Super Hornets, it would not mean US wont release additional F16's to Pakistan. US will sell weapons to both India and Pakistan, problems would arise if the US decides to sell the Raptor. PAF has the infrastructure to support around 110 F16's and this is exactly the number PAF is looking to raise by 2015. Its very likely that PAF will exercise its option of purchasing additional 18 Block 52's, many reports are stating that PAF has already exercised this option and in future many F16 airframes could be acquired through EDA. Put these F16's through MLU Tape 4 and they come out as good as new comparable to the Block 52's.

PAF is not looking for a particular plane to counter the MRCA; their options are set and they intend to raise a fleet that consists of JF17, FC20 and F16's. F7's with relatively new air frames will serve as point defence fighters and ROSE Upgraded Mirages serving the role of strike aircrafts. A fleet consisting of JF17's, F16's and FC20's armed with 5th Generation WVR and BVR Missiles backed up by AWACS and SAM support is one hell of a defence if you ask me. IAF will have to come up with something very creative to break through this defence

Buddy...don't get me wrong here...If you had read the whole post then in the first line i have expressed my dislikes to go for F-18...But since we are talking hypothetically then let me ask why would f-18 win the contest on mere techs??? There has to be a political angle if f-18 comes out to be winner...Mind it by no means i am challenging the tech of F-18 but then F-18 comes with a package which we will not like unless and until that package is sweeten up by some political goodies, no???? So if you look from that angle then mind it there is a possibility that F-18 being a winner is not going to be good news for PAF F-16's number

 

[deckingraj]

As said in the previous post that assumption is F-18 has been choosen....

First of all, I meant that PAF could buy way more J10Bs with the same amount of money they pay for US/western fighters.

No Sancho...It is not just about numbers...Otherwise they should go for JF-17...In case you are saying J10Bs are as potent as F-16 block 52 then that's a separate discussion...

Secondly you have to keep in mind the difference between Pakistan and India for the US. At the moment Pakistan is the closest alley for the US in the war on terror. Without the help of their military, the US will never be able to end this fight, so they are dependent on them. In this situation we can give them MMRCA and buy C17s, Apache, Chinooks..., but there is not a lil chance to block any sale to Pakistan. All we can do is pressuring them to not sell key weapon system that clearly are focused on India, like cruise missiles for example.

Well there is no doubt US is in a catch 22 situation however it is not easy to ignore long term benefits vs short term benefits....The war is going on from past 9 years and i am not if Pak has got any game changer....Just think there has to be some political goodie for F-18 to end up as favourite, otherwise why the hell we will go for a fighter plane with so many strings attached to it???

Even Russia, our closest alley is selling engines and stuff to Pakistan, so we should really get over the idea that we could stop anybody from doing the same, only because we buy some arms too. The only chance to do it, is to have a say, or be involved by a partnership / co-development and that is something that only the Russians, or Europeans can offer us.
For example, teaming up with EF consortium, or if possible with Dassault on Rafale, would give us a real chance to block such deals and that's what I understand to go beyond a buyer seller relationship.

It is a little more then that...Russia did block the sale of engine initially on GOI behest....However ban was lifted because of many reasons

- China
- Cash
- No real justification for blocking the sale...In other words when you are getting MKI's what real harm can JF-17 do to you...Mind it i by no means is degrading JF-17 however if we compare techs then MKI's are much more capable fighter.....

It is plane simple, if i am shedding $10 billion dollars i would expect that my adversary do not get hands to same/similar goodies atleast from the same vendor...We should have that much confidence on policy makers at our side....This is very bad otherwise, don't you think so???

But 150 - 200 MKI complemented with any MMRCA will be a boost right? It is not special for the F18SH and imo, with the Eurocanards we would have a bigger advantage over PLAAF than with the US fighters. The combination of the lowst RCS and METEOR missiles in BVR, as well as the supermanouverability of them in WVR gives us an edge in any situation right?

I have nothing to disagree here....However as said we are assuming F-18 is the winner...My choice split the tender between Rafale and Eurofighter...

Imo the worst point are all these restrictions! No radar source codes means, we must inform the US first if we plan a strike in Pakistan (like it was planed after the mumbai attacks) and is that a good idea, if we know they are one of the closest alleys of Pakistan? Also how can we complement out techs with US, if they don't provide any critical techs and don't allow to team up in co-developments, or JV like the Russians and Europeans do.
I said it before, chosing the US means only reducing the dependence on Russia, by being dependent on the US. Some think it is a good idea to have good relations to both countries and I am not against that in general, but for me Indias independence must always come in first place!

I am in agreement with you there...

It is not only MMRCA where the Russians loose, IL 78 tanker lost, Mi 28 helicopters are very unlikely, same goes for Mi 26 that will loose to Chinooks, Kamov helicopters seems to loose over Eurocopter LUHs...
Except of already availabe types like Su 30, Mig 29 and Mi 17, we are not really buying new Russian arms right (Pak Fa / FGFA and MRTA are co-developments)? So if Russia can't sell things to their number 1 customer, where will they go? No matter how deep our relation are, they have to think about their economy too and especially if we get closer and closer to the US, they will start change their minds.

As said we have huge list...I am sure you have already read such news but just for quick reference...

India, Russia to extend military cooperation till 2020 :: Brahmand.com

Remember Russia and India have time tested relationship....It is not just about money...

Regarding France, like any other country they want to sell their arms and techs too and by the fact that they are not dependent on the US, they will offer these things to Pakistan too (Mirage 2000 techs for JF 17 for example). But the more we co-develop with them, the more we can infuence such deals as a partner, not only as a buyer.

I am not completely in disagreement with you here...however i am sure you agree that one do not share these sensitive technologies on drop of hat...You got to have a big order of the magnitude of MRCA to get hands to such things....I mean just compare the kind of TOT offered to us with the amount involved...This can give us some idea about what PAF can expect...

 

[dbc]

I am not sure whether you read the news article why UAE sent RFI for F-18 which went as a blow for France... there expectations on Rafael was so high... they wanted AWACS features + lot of others which will make Rafael altogether a new bird instead of calling them as block series.. and UAE where not ready to spend so much of money as France quoted.. secondly they already have F16 deployed so they want to evaluate of F18 as it contain some of the features they wanted... either way US provides best hardware on AESA as of now.... we have to wait and see what happens whether Rafael becomes Ra fail or Rafael is Rafael to UAE airforce

No the UAE wants to diversify and the reduce risk of being locked to one country. I doubt the UAE will choose another American fighter - unless they're keen to quickly increase their offensive capability and are unwilling to wait for future Rafale developments. The Rafale was over ambitious and a victim of French pride, had the French pooled resources with the rest of Europe they would've had a formidable Eurofighter years ago. But they choose to do it alone, it may have still worked if they staggered development and planned block improvements better. Today potential customers are faced with conflicting messages and promises of future capability.

I agree with Sancho, I criticize the Rafale just to wind him up. The Rafale is still a good choice if the French offer co- development and get into a risk/reward/technology sharing agreement with India. If India agrees to fund and mature key technologies - make no mistake it will be more expensive and risky but it will immensely benefit both countries and is a symbiotic relationship. This is also the one area where the US offering is weak, although ToT compliant it still means that US technology cannot benefit other programs like LCA or MCA unless a separate agreement is reached.

 

[Novice09]

Dear Friends,

It could be my wild imagination but as per my discussion with one of my friend in MoD, EF is having highest chances.

MoD is highly suspicious about the contender who have highest speculation about embargo and that's too with very limited ToT.

Based on his words:

128+- (read as around) EF with 100% ToT and partnership in EF program
50+- rafale with ToT (will try for 100% ToT)
Tejas and MCA with observed tech

 

[Chanakyaa]

@bhagat singh,

We are NOT looking at an alternate of the MKI but Mirage a medium Multirole Fighter. .. Thats why the original idea was to buy M2Ks.

 

[baconlover]

wow India is getting some fancy 'murican hardware, congrats to India and we can use the $$$$$$

 

[luckyyy]

The Selection of GE 414 as the Engine Powering LCA MK II has a great perspective on the Final Selection.

NOW CONSIDER THIS : Super Hornet Gets Selected for MMRCA ... What will be the IMPACT ?

#1. The Strength IAF vs PAF , IAF vs PLAAF
#2. The Edge : INDIA vs PAKISTAN


Lets Share our Views on the Above Points.
Comments Most Welcome.

i disagree on most on the above

1) if F414 engine for f-18 alone is a selection patch for MMRCA then MIG-35's engine RD-33 is also already in the inventery..

2) it won't give The Edge to INDIA vs PAKISTAN coz F-16 is superior to F-18 .

3) it won't give The Edge to INDIA vs CHINA coz SU-30MKK with PLAAF are supirior to F-18....

REASONS :

F-18 is a ground attack aircraft , to strick inside the enemy territory it will be countered by F-16 or SU-30 , both are suririor to F-18 in A2A .

if a F-16 or SU-30 enters indian side , then F-18 will be ineffective to counter both coz it is weak in A2A...

 

[Game is loading]

When is India getting Sukhoi PAK FA????????

 

[Peregrine]

Summerising your post.

Power projection and war are two different thing, US currently projects power all over the world, doesnt mean that it can actually point blank defeat its cold war enemy Russia.

So please stop your rant. iam enjoying my dream

How is that mambo jumbo even related to the post??? rendered speechless?.....anyways, the fact remains the same, all your grandiloquence about "Pakistan doesn't remain a worthy opponent anymore & blah blah" only abase your subjective delusions when you & your fellows are still tempted to think of Pakistan as not being a worthy adversary??? LOL, Get the point...... Then again don't bother...

 

[Novice09]

When is India getting Sukhoi PAK FA????????

Just after Russia

This plane is still under development therefore possibility of delays cannot be ruled out

from wiki :
The Russian Defense Ministry will purchase the first ten aircraft after 2012 and then 60 after 2016. The first batch of fighters will be delivered without the "Fifth generation" engines.