If the F/A 18 Super Hornet Wins the MMRCA

[saurabh]

Silly question here, but if PAF and IAF are using the same american missiles, how does that give IAF and advantage in BVR?

Advantage of having better radar, and quite possibly better jammer.

 

[SomeGuy]

The impact of F/A 18 Super Hornet Winning MMRCA will be HUGE for the Indian air force. Same as the Su MKI joining the IAF.

How?
Don't you guys already claim that MKI is best, after F-22.
What capabilities does SH give IAF, that you don't already have with MKI?

 

[saurabh]

How?
Don't you guys already claim that MKI is best, after F-22.
What capabilities does SH give IAF, that you don't already have with MKI?

Su-30 is a heavy aircraft, compared to SH or any other MMRCA ("Medium" multirole) candidate. IAF is looking for a medium sized aircraft, between heavy Sukhoi and lighter aircrafts in inventory.

 

[kingdurgaking]

do you really think that ?? then think again ... P.a.f. is watching and waiting for your iaf .. , just tell your iaf to just dare cross your border and then wait and watch what happens next ... whiLe i'll be making the " BehinD enemy Lines parT Two " ...

You have to understand the IAF also has intelligent people... Your Airspace has got lot of loop holes to capitalize.. But IAF doesnt need to do that.. Incase of war IAF will dare to loose them to take your entire fleet.. you dont need to compare the present technology with past.. Where only Airframes and bombs played part.. now tech plays part buddy... Current battle will be entirely different than the past..

 

[kingdurgaking]

How?
Don't you guys already claim that MKI is best, after F-22.
What capabilities does SH give IAF, that you don't already have with MKI?

Su 30 MKI is a multi role top end fighter.. while MMRCA will mostly complement MKI or possibly a doctrine will be created around it when the fighter is choosen... MKI 's role will be attack and neutralize target while MMRCA will attack and defend... that is the main difference.. Like a forward player and mid player in foot ball.. my guess

 

[Chanakyaa]

The Differnece between MKI and F/A 18 is same as Differnece between F-15 and F/A 18 and the Roles are Almost the Same.

MKI is the Indian F-15 .

 

[Dash]

Silly question here, but if PAF and IAF are using the same american missiles, how does that give IAF and advantage in BVR?

Most advanced nations now use BVR missiles.

A missile to missile comparision is not a right comparision. In BVR, according to my knowledge. You need to have right combination of fighters, Fighters with right combination of RADARs, different types of BVR missiles. With us we dont use American BVR missiles, rather Russian ones.

There are seme active longer range BVR missiles like RD-27(with 200 Kms rangee) and R-77 active homing missiles(almost 90 Km range). What missiles you will use on what fighter is completely theatrical. However with AWACS (which is phalcon with us Vs Saab Erieye) cover, more powerful radars, OLS, IRST you clearly get some advantage.

In our case the inventory has a large collection of missiles, i dont know about PAF though.

Another silly question, but how does 15% extra thrust give you an edge in WVR when most modern planes have HMS and OBS WVR missiles that are far more agile than any fighter plane?

You have asked a big question...shortly.
A 15% more thurst will bring the fighter to 10 Tn thurst mode and LCA being lighter will have a better T/W ration, which itself is an advantage in many ways, when a dog fight happens.
And for HMS and OBS WVR missiles. I am sure LCA has all of these.

 

[REHAN NIAZI FALCON]

my choice would have been euro fighter typhoon..........

 

[sancho]

Hi deckingraj, sorry for the late reply, but I just saw your post.

No Sancho...It is not just about numbers...Otherwise they should go for JF-17...In case you are saying J10Bs are as potent as F-16 block 52 then that's a separate discussion...

Yes, I do think J10Bs are more potent than F16 B52s and JF17s, that's why said numbers of them would be more difficult to handle, than for example 2 x squads of MMRCAs in PAF.

Well there is no doubt US is in a catch 22 situation however it is not easy to ignore long term benefits vs short term benefits....The war is going on from past 9 years and i am not if Pak has got any game changer....Just think there has to be some political goodie for F-18 to end up as favourite, otherwise why the hell we will go for a fighter plane with so many strings attached to it???

That's what I think too, just based on the facts of the fighters and the advantages the vendors offers, the US can't give us a comparable deal. On the other side, the political benefits from them can't be matched by any other contender and that's why I always say Gripen NG if costs are the important point, F18SH for politics, but the best suited fighter and the best deals are possible with the Rafale.

In other words when you are getting MKI's what real harm can JF-17 do to you...Mind it i by no means is degrading JF-17 however if we compare techs then MKI's are much more capable fighter.....

It is plane simple, if i am shedding $10 billion dollars i would expect that my adversary do not get hands to same/similar goodies atleast from the same vendor...We should have that much confidence on policy makers at our side....This is very bad otherwise, don't you think so???

Of course we get more advanced arms and techs and I for me that is even enough, but many people think that only by the fact that we buy Russian, or US stuff, we will be in a position to block anything. To me that is wishful thinking, because it's all about money and even Russia have to keep that in mind too.

I am not completely in disagreement with you here...however i am sure you agree that one do not share these sensitive technologies on drop of hat...You got to have a big order of the magnitude of MRCA to get hands to such things....I mean just compare the kind of TOT offered to us with the amount involved...This can give us some idea about what PAF can expect...

True, but it don't have to be ToT, what about if PAF gets the licence production rights for western techs. Some Pakistani members for example thinks JF 17 could get the French M88-2, or even 3 engine and at the moment the French would even be happy to sell it, just to get some more money to fund further developments and we couldn't do anything against it. But if we co-develop the Kaveri-Snema engine, that will have further developed parts of the of the M-88 too, we could actively, or even better fix it in contracts from the begining that techs like these can't be sold to countries that pose a threat to us.
That's why I said, we have to get over the simple buyer status and come to a partner level to really influence other countries and that is only possible with the Russians and Europeans, because the US have to many restrictions in this cases.

 

[MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n]

You have to understand the IAF also has intelligent people... Your Airspace has got lot of loop holes to capitalize.. But IAF doesnt need to do that.. Incase of war IAF will dare to loose them to take your entire fleet.. you dont need to compare the present technology with past.. Where only Airframes and bombs played part.. now tech plays part buddy... Current battle will be entirely different than the past..

yeah .. so much intelligent that even knowing the Loop - holes , iaf did not dare to do the surgical strike when your goi was very busy in justifying the so-called surgical strikes on the diplomatic front both your domestic and foriegn fronts ... ...

now , why the hell are you telling me the loop-holes chhit .. ?? just try to do your iaf a favour , tell them the loop- holes if they dont know ... or if they already know them then make your iaf convinced that the iaf can destroy the whole fleet across the border with less damage and PakisTan air Force [ P.a.F. ] vill not bomb down your entire india to sTone age so dont get scared of your enemy P.a.F. any more ... ... then lets see what your iaf have to say about your stupid advice

 

[MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n]

You have to understand the IAF also has intelligent people... Your Airspace has got lot of loop holes to capitalize.. But IAF doesnt need to do that.. Incase of war IAF will dare to loose them to take your entire fleet.. you dont need to compare the present technology with past.. Where only Airframes and bombs played part.. now tech plays part buddy... Current battle will be entirely different than the past..

first you have to learn that : " it's the man behind the machine not the machine behind the man " ... secondly , who said P.a.f. has low tech stuff .. ?? get up and pay attention : 1. JF - 17 [up to 250] with/having the state-of-the-art aVionics and weapons systems plus an advanced radar and E.C.m. suiTe for various blocks that make up the the total 250 fighter jets ,

2. F-16 [ The Fighting FaLcon ] = 45 (OriginaL) currently going m.L.u. that makes them at par with the current Block - 52 F-16s,

3. Brand New F-16 Block -52 = 18 [under delivery ] pLus reports of 18 more such systems being negotiated ,

4. J-10 B = 36 ordered ; currently being modified based upon P.a.F. 's specification(s) ...

now , all the above mentioned TechnoLogicaL progress is well on its way and on schedule ...

a piece of advice for you : think millions times when commenting about P.a.F. and PakisTan ...

 

[MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n]

and dont forget the force multipliers like aeriaL in-flight reduellers and stratigic assets such as moDern a.w.a.c.s. & sophisticated S.a.m. systems which have been already inducted in P.a.F. right now ... so what's with tha dam past & present thing .. ??

 

[Devianz]

first you have to learn that : " it's the man behind the machine not the machine behind the man " ... secondly , who said P.a.f. has low tech stuff .. ?? get up and pay attention : 1. JF - 17 [up to 250] with/having the state-of-the-art aVionics and weapons systems plus an advanced radar and E.C.m. suiTe for various blocks that make up the the total 250 fighter jets ,

2. F-16 [ The Fighting FaLcon ] = 45 (OriginaL) currently going m.L.u. that makes them at par with the current Block - 52 F-16s,

3. Brand New F-16 Block -52 = 18 [under delivery ] pLus reports of 18 more such systems being negotiated ,

4. J-10 B = 36 ordered ; currently being modified based upon P.a.F. 's specification(s) ...

now , all the above mentioned TechnoLogicaL progress is well on its way and on schedule ...

a piece of advice for you : think millions times when commenting about P.a.F. and PakisTan ...

A piece of advice for you: please don't write the number of fighters or the assets or the tech you got or would be getting to show off. If someone from Indian side starts writing numbers then....... Well, I don't have to say the rest.

 

[jha]

first you have to learn that : " it's the man behind the machine not the machine behind the man " ... secondly , who said P.a.f. has low tech stuff .. ?? get up and pay attention : 1. JF - 17 [up to 250] with/having the state-of-the-art aVionics and weapons systems plus an advanced radar and E.C.m. suiTe for various blocks that make up the the total 250 fighter jets ,

2. F-16 [ The Fighting FaLcon ] = 45 (OriginaL) currently going m.L.u. that makes them at par with the current Block - 52 F-16s,

3. Brand New F-16 Block -52 = 18 [under delivery ] pLus reports of 18 more such systems being negotiated ,

4. J-10 B = 36 ordered ; currently being modified based upon P.a.F. 's specification(s) ...

now , all the above mentioned TechnoLogicaL progress is well on its way and on schedule ... :
a piece of advice for you : think millions times when commenting about P.a.F. and PakisTan ...

and dont forget the force multipliers like aeriaL in-flight reduellers and stratigic assets such as moDern a.w.a.c.s. & sophisticated S.a.m. systems which have been already inducted in P.a.F. right now ... so what's with tha dam past & present thing .. ??

Spend some more time here and read some posts of some senior members from pakistan like ZAKI, SPARKLINGWAY before posting again so as to avoid making a fool out of yourself.

 

[deckingraj]

Hi deckingraj, sorry for the late reply, but I just saw your post.

Its perfectly fine mate....

Yes, I do think J10Bs are more potent than F16 B52s and JF17s, that's why said numbers of them would be more difficult to handle, than for example 2 x squads of MMRCAs in PAF.

Sancho i have lot of respect for your knowledge however please think that why would PAF go for anymore F-16's if J10Bs are more advanced then F16 B52s especially when China will be more then happy to provide them the fighter??? As said they already have a plan for buying these birds and that too in significant number with first 35 expected to arrive by 2015......Now please suggest why would PAF would like to go for F-16's instead of a more potent fighter in the name of J-10Bs which is virtually sanction free??? Is it the time frame or is it the avionics or is it that F016 Block 52 as a package is better then J-10Bs.....

In short PAF is full of very smart people and unless and until we are convinced that they have bias over f-16's and any step by GOI to block F-16's sale will leave them with no choice but to go for J-10 i am afraid i am still not convinced.

That's what I think too, just based on the facts of the fighters and the advantages the vendors offers, the US can't give us a comparable deal. On the other side, the political benefits from them can't be matched by any other contender and that's why I always say Gripen NG if costs are the important point, F18SH for politics, but the best suited fighter and the best deals are possible with the Rafale.

I don't think i have anything to disagree here. However i would love to have a fighter selected just on its potential and not on politics. We have a huge wish-list for weapons and there are many more deals out there.

Of course we get more advanced arms and techs and I for me that is even enough, but many people think that only by the fact that we buy Russian, or US stuff, we will be in a position to block anything. To me that is wishful thinking, because it's all about money and even Russia have to keep that in mind too.

No doubt about it....You are right however if we think from pure economics this is bad business to provide state of art weapons to one country and its counter to another as long as you know the other party(having more orders and money) is still out there to buy. With russia we have decades of great relations as well. In short i am not worried about Russia...As far as US is concerned then the way geo-politics is going on and way China is coming up complemented with GOI's rising stature i am quite sure F-18 being MRCA winner have the potential to put a lid on any state-of-art weaponary reaching our neighbours in the west.

True, but it don't have to be ToT, what about if PAF gets the licence production rights for western techs. Some Pakistani members for example thinks JF 17 could get the French M88-2, or even 3 engine and at the moment the French would even be happy to sell it, just to get some more money to fund further developments and we couldn't do anything against it. But if we co-develop the Kaveri-Snema engine, that will have further developed parts of the of the M-88 too, we could actively, or even better fix it in contracts from the begining that techs like these can't be sold to countries that pose a threat to us.
That's why I said, we have to get over the simple buyer status and come to a partner level to really influence other countries and that is only possible with the Russians and Europeans, because the US have to many restrictions in this cases.

I understand your concern, however the right approach in my eyes is to do what is best for us. Just entering into partnership just for sake of denying PAF goodies might not be good idea either. As far as F-18 is concerned i do not see this plane winning just on tech however if the reason is politics then i have no reasons to believe that India will not try to put a cap on the real weapons vs mere statements that these weapons are not meant for India and are just help in WOT