If the F/A 18 Super Hornet Wins the MMRCA

[kingdurgaking]

Everything is fine you said here. however the radar in LCA is not our own and its Elta 2032, which is israeli, and the wepons integration was doen with Elta's help.

I think only the processor unit of the Radar is from Israel.. is the entire radar is from Israel kya? .. As far i know.. it is the signal processor we took from Israel 2032.. Am i missing something?

hmmmm ...

 

[satishkumarcsc]

I think only the processor unit of the Radar is from Israel.. is the entire radar is from Israel kya? .. As far i know.. it is the signal processor we took from Israel 2032.. Am i missing something?

hmmmm ...

You forgot the antenna...

 

[Dash]

I think only the processor unit of the Radar is from Israel.. is the entire radar is from Israel kya? .. As far i know.. it is the signal processor we took from Israel 2032.. Am i missing something?

hmmmm ...

You are correct. The radar is actually a hybrid version of Israeli radar Elta 2032, however the "main" thing in the radar, the processor is Israeli and rest all is Indian origin. Its a doppler pulse radar. Its teh same version radar that navy uses on Sea harriers.

It was joint venture btn Israeli and India, from developing this radar, testing it and to weapons integration.

 

[dbc]

Who cares, the point was, that you talked about different things, or do you really want to say that the radar range has something to do with the aerodynamic design of the fighter?
That's why I said it does not make sense, distracting with totally unuseful points doesn't make it better.




See now you are really talking about it from an aerodynamic point of view, why didn't you do it from the start?


I disagree, the because as I said before, fighters like the MKI, F15s, EF, or F22 are designed for air superiority, F18SH is not! Things like maneuverability, T/W ratios, speed, wing loads... played only a minor role in its design, because the aim was totally different. The F18 was designed to be a carrier fighter, which requires a design suited for strikes and air defense mainly, therefor the fighter designs of it, or the Rafale differs from real air superiority fighters.

Let me ask you something in regard of the aerodynamic capabilities of the SH. Let's say IAF chooses the SH and by the close proximity to Pakistan borders one can't rule out WVR combats between F16 B52 and the SH. But both have the JHMCS + Aim 9 combo, so where do you see the advantages of the SH in such a combat?



The funny thing is that the SH has only 1 customer other than the USN and even the Australians just bought them only as a stopgap, because the F35 is delayed, so what does it tell us about how many countries really wanted the SH?
If an airforce can choose just by fighter performance and on offer are the SH, or one of the above mentioned air superioity fighters, I have no doubt about it which one will be chosen.

Who cares? Who cares about survivability features? Pilots do, the Rafale's first crash in 2007 resulted in an unfortunate mishap that caused the death of Capitaine Emmanuel "Bouba" MORIUSER. Spatial disorientation caused the aircraft to literally fall from the sky from an altitude of 4000m and collide with the ground.

Auto-recovery is valuable in F/A -18 aircraft because it prevents loss of life and aircraft for four major causes of mishaps including CFIT, Spatial Disorientation (SD), Loss Of Control In flight (LOCI) (except in the case of stall/spin mishaps), and physiological
compromise, which includes Gz (vertical acceleration)-Gravity-induced Loss Of Consciousness (G-LOC), hypoxia, and sudden onset medical illness. A portion of the mishaps classified as LOCI by the AFSC are Automatic Ground Collision Avoidance System Auto-GCAS) recoverable.

If the Rafale had an F/A-18 like AGCAS (Automatic Ground Collision Avoidance System) Capitain Bouba would still be alive.The AGCAS system would have automatically returned the aircraft to a safe altitude while the pilot recovered consciousness.

While you demonstrate a callous 'who cares' attitude towards survivability systems I can assure you the IAF does care and it will influence their decision.

Things like maneuverability, T/W ratios, speed, wing loads... played only a minor role in its design, because the aim was totally different.

Speed? the F/A-18 E/F has a top speed of Mach 2.2, hard to believe with the whole T/W ratio you keep talking about. Thrust to weight ratio isn't representative of an aircraft's true performance because you've neglected a very important performance component and that is DRAG. At transonic and supersonic speed aerodynamic drag either induced or parasitic is overcome by engine thrust. An aerodynamically efficient design will require less thrust. Why do you think the US Navy is not interested in a higher thrust EPE engine for its fleet of F/A-18 E/F while the Emirati's will not accept the current Rafale engine?

You seem like an intelligent guy and for reasons I do not understand, it has become important for me to convince you to be more lateral in your thinking, you have all the facts assemble them and consider the options with an open mind. Eventually if the IAF does picks the F/A-18 E/F OR the Rafale then their decision is based on information / technical specifications not available to the general public. If the Rafale is picked, I will admit that the IAF's decision is correct and is based on technical merit and the BIG PICTURE not available to either of us.

Let me ask you something in regard of the aerodynamic capabilities of the SH. Let's say IAF chooses the SH and by the close proximity to Pakistan borders one can't rule out WVR combats between F16 B52 and the SH. But both have the JHMCS + Aim 9 combo, so where do you see the advantages of the SH in such a combat?

Assuming both start neutral the F-16 is more vulnerable beyond the merge especially if the Viper driver goes below 300 knots. The F/A-18 E/F has superior instantaneous turn performance and will have the advantage in a slow turning fight due to its nose pointing ability. As long as the Rhino doesn't try to out climb the Viper he/she will have a good chance but if India goes for the EPE engine that Viper advantage will disappear.

The funny thing is that the SH has only 1 customer other than the USN and even the Australians just bought them only as a stopgap, because the F35 is delayed, so what does it tell us about how many countries really wanted the SH?

The Super Hornet was cleared for export in 2002, it wasn't offered to Singapore or Korea. Until recently,Pentagon was selective and the Super Hornet was offered only to trusted allies. I believe Malaysia officially expressed interest years ago but they haven't had any success getting formal approval I believe they're now considering Sukhoi Su-35?

 

[sancho]

Who cares? Who cares about survivability features? Pilots do, the Rafale's first crash in 2007 resulted in an unfortunate mishap that caused the death of Capitaine Emmanuel "Bouba" MORIUSER. Spatial disorientation caused the aircraft to literally fall from the sky from an altitude of 4000m and collide with the ground...

It's always unbelivable for me, how girls can talk and talk and talk, although there is not even a single important point behind it and you always offer also quotes, that still has nothing to do with the real matter.
Let me remind you once again, you started it with a comparison of the SH and the MKI about the aerodynamic design of the fighter. So what has all this to do with it?

Speed? the F/A-18 E/F has a top speed of Mach 2.2

Even Boeing states around Mach 1.8 only which is similar to actual Rafale and less to MKIs.

Speed? the F/A-18 E/F has a top speed of Mach 2.2, hard to believe with the whole T/W ratio you keep talking about. Thrust to weight ratio isn't representative of an aircraft's true performance because you've neglected a very important performance component and that is DRAG....

...As long as the Rhino doesn't try to out climb the Viper he/she will have a good chance but if India goes for the EPE engine that Viper advantage will disappear.

So first you state the SH don't need a higher T/W ratio because of less drag, but now you admit that IAF need the higher thrust of EPE engine to have an advantage of PAFs F16 B52s!
And you know what's funny, I agree, because the SH in USN doesn't need it with F15s on their side in all major wars and against old and less capable opponents. But when we buy the SH that has the same weapons and techs in WVR like our opponents, things will change obviously!

You seem like an intelligent guy and for reasons I do not understand, it has become important for me to convince you to be more lateral in your thinking, you have all the facts assemble them and consider the options with an open mind. Eventually if the IAF does picks the F/A-18 E/F OR the Rafale then their decision is based on information / technical specifications not available to the general public. If the Rafale is picked, I will admit that the IAF's decision is correct and is based on technical merit and the BIG PICTURE not available to either of us.

I did it before and even you admited it, that the Rafale indeed will be a good choice, just like I always state that the F18SH leading, but because it is the political choice and not the better fighter and by far not the better deal.
The difference in our point of view is simple, you are looking at it only with the US on your mind, I am looking at it with what's the best for India and more over for our forces on my mind!
Btw I am trying to make a comparison of the 2 for the MMRCA thread, will be interesting to see what you will say then.

The Super Hornet was cleared for export in 2002, it wasn't offered to Singapore or Korea. Until recently,Pentagon was selective and the Super Hornet was offered only to trusted allies. I believe Malaysia officially expressed interest years ago but they haven't had any success getting formal approval I believe they're now considering Sukhoi Su-35?

I heared they were offered for Greece, Turkey and Swiss, but all of them are looking for Eurocanards, they are on offer for Japan too and they don't seem to have interest either. Brazil no chance!
Malaysia?

YouTube - Mahathir - Bombing Singapore

F-18.. F-18 the very good american airplane cost almost twice than the MiG’s. And then we acquired our eight F-18 and eighteen MiG’s. MiG’s given sold to us without any conditions. If you feel like bombing Singapore for example, *canned laugh* the Russians are not going to object. Any Singaporean here? Or ex-Singaporean? But this great aircraft called F-18 which we bought from America, after buying it, after several months, I got to know, that these aircrafts cannot be used to for any attack against any countries. Even if it is not Singapore *canned laugh*. Because the Americans sold the aircraft but the source code is kept by them. So you cannot plan anything, you cannot fly the plane to carry out any bombing attack against anybody, but you have this wonderful aircraft which you can see at lima

Don't you think this also could be a reason why they turned to the Su 30 MKM later?

 

[dbc]

It's always unbelivable for me, how girls can talk and talk and talk

Amazing how men don't listen. I'm done talking..

 

[kingdurgaking]

Amazing how men don't listen. I'm done talking..

Amazing both are best internet warriors .. just for fun.. yeah please continue .. sorry for poking my nose between .. i withdraw my _ _ _ now

 

[ajtr]

So what pakistan already has f-16 and f-15 eagles

 

[ganimi kawa]

Originally Posted by sancho
It's always unbelivable for me, how girls can talk and talk and talk

Amazing how men don't listen. I'm done talking..

..........And that is why the psychiatrist makes some insane amount of cash!!!


On a serious note........ whatever the reasons for this skirmish may be; the hard fact is that this thread has become richer by it. Just look at the 14 pages worth of discussion so far and every page packed with some real good info.

Given the prevelance of trolls these days, it has been a record of some sort. And the cerdit does go to you fellas!

As a gesture, I'm gonna thank both the quoted posts and hope that we see further exchanges in the time to come!


P.S. Sancho, about the stealth claims by Rafale.................

DBC, about the assymetric thrust issue............. Oops! I can see her now...................Where is that damn armour when you need it?..........


P.P.S. You both rock!

 

[dbc]

I heared they were offered for Greece, Turkey and Swiss, but all of them are looking for Eurocanards, they are on offer for Japan too and they don't seem to have interest either. Brazil no chance!
Malaysia?

Don't you think this also could be a reason why they turned to the Su 30 MKM later?

Mahathir is showing early signs of dementia you don't need source code to drop bombs, in any case I'd take the words of the RMAF chief far more seriously.

Ismail did not indicate that the RMAF planned to totally ditch procurement of the Super Hornets, instead saying that the air force needed such agile fighters.

"The Super Hornets are among the best fighters, based on the performance of eight Hornet F-18Ds which are in our service,"

- Malaysian Air Force Chief Jen Datuk Nik Ismail Nik Mohamaed


Utusan Malaysia Online - special report

Apparently, Malaysia is still interested but want goodies that are off the table due to close US / Singapore ties. The Super Hornet beat Gripen in Denmark, that potential sale is awaiting approval from Danish parliament, Denmark may prefer to wait for the F-35. Brazil Air Force wants Gripen, Rafale was their THIRD choice after Super Hornet. Brazilian President Lula wants Rafale, if Brazil does pick Rafale then its due to political influence. Greece is broke and I didn't see any media reports indicating their preference for Euro Canards. In 2006, Turkey was offered fifth Euro Fighter program partner but I guess that offer was declined.
I know France was interested in the F/A-18 as a contingency for Rafale M delays. As for the Swiss competition Boeing withdrew the F/A-18 E/F saying the Super Hornet was over qualified .

After a thorough review of Switzerland's requirements for partial replacement of its Tiger fighter aircraft, Boeing [NYSE: BA] has decided not to enter the competition due to the disparity between the requirements for an F-5 replacement aircraft and the next-generation capabilities of the F/A-18E/F Block II Super Hornet.

Boeing: Boeing Declines Swiss Request for Proposal for New Fighter Aircraft

I am pretty sure Rafale will loose the competition to be an F-5 replacement . With its past record of being beaten in every competition, its best chance was procurement by the UAE Air Force. But that isn't going too well , UAE isn't happy with the M88 engine, the RBE radar or Spectra.

 

[Hulk]

That video was hilarious, I am planning to add to my favorites.

 

[Dash]

Sancho will never give up on Rafale, just like me

and DBC will never give up American...

This is an endless debate of favorites, iam getting a little nostalgic now, remembering the scenes of "HUM TUM"...

By the way my support goes to Sancho!!.

 

[kingdurgaking]

I am pretty sure Rafale will loose the competition to be an F-5 replacement . With its past record of being beaten in every competition, its best chance was procurement by the UAE Air Force. But that isn't going too well , UAE isn't happy with the M88 engine, the RBE radar or Spectra.

I guess Super Hornet is also over qualified for MMRCA .. Rafael though it may loose competition for replacing to F-5 but suits the gap perfectly needed for IAF which at present feels it doesnt need the technology equal to F-5.. Rafael is more than enough for our adversaries .. and we are not going to fight any war outside our land to have the super duper F18

The only way Super duper Hornet can win MMRCA is put pressure on our babus and roads for that are already being laid...

 

[sancho]

Amazing how men don't listen. I'm done talking..

No please, I have nothing against you talking, but focus on the real points and don't distract with other things and more important please try to see it from an Indian point of view, not only from what is good for the US!

The Super Hornet beat Gripen in Denmark, that potential sale is awaiting approval from Danish parliament, Denmark may prefer to wait for the F-35.

So you were wrong about SH was not offered for export before right? Besides, as far as I know the Gripen NG lost against the F35!

Brazil Air Force wants Gripen, Rafale was their THIRD choice after Super Hornet. Brazilian President Lula wants Rafale, if Brazil does pick Rafale then its due to political influence.

Not really, it is clearly the most political choice, but also offers more offsets and a ready and solution that is available in time as well for their navy. The SH can't offer enought ToT, neither can be used from their carrier, the NG is not available anytime soon and the carrier version is just a paperplane. Rafale is the most expensive choice there, but offers clear advantages for politics, industry and forces of Brazil.

As for the Swiss competition Boeing withdrew the F/A-18 E/F saying the Super Hornet was over qualified

Or in otherwords not medium enough and although the SH offer more commonality and cost-effectiveness to the Hornets, Boeing knew they had no chance there!

P.S. Sancho, about the stealth claims by Rafale.................

What exactly?

 

[ganimi kawa]

Sancho will never give up on Rafale, just like me

and DBC will never give up American...

This is an endless debate of favorites, iam getting a little nostalgic now, remembering the scenes of "HUM TUM"...

By the way my support goes to Sancho!!.

I now firmly believe that the triggering event of WW 3 is going to be a bar fight between supporters of differant MMRCA contenders!

For arguement's sake, from now on I'll support the Eurofighter Typhoon! Anyone with me on this?

@ Sancho, I have some serious doubts about the Rafale being a LO design. If you have some data regarding this, please share. I'll post my views after that!