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If India or US attack, Afg will back Pakistan: Karzai

Yes - one must distinguish between "feel good" statements and reality. I bet it feels good to think about the Afghans siding with India in any future war. But let's look at the facts.

Afghanistan has heavily leaned on Pakistan for the past thirty years. Though in the past, during the British era, Afghanistan closed it's borders when Muslims tried to migrate away from British rule, Pakistan buried the hatchet and literally one-third of Afghanistan moved into Pakistan. We took a principled stand and helped our Afghan brothers, US support started coming after two years(when the war started, CIA expected the mighty Red Army to crush the resistance within three months - they had been undefeated thus far), and for two years Pakistan supported the Afghan Mujahideen on it's own.

Tens of thousands of Pakistani youth joined the Afghan jihad, along with Muslims coming in from all over the world. The Pakistan Army SSG officer endearingly called "Colonel Imaam" trained Afghan groups in special forces warfare, and had also been a teacher of Mullah Omer, who now heads the Afghan resistance. When the Soviets deployed their Spetznaz crack troops and the Mujahideen were overpowered in the face of superior tactics and high-tech weaponry, our SSG was covertly deployed deep inside Afghan territory to help the resistance. There were pitched battles near areas such as Panjshair that the Soviets could not overwhelm, and even they publically raised protests about their suspicion that they were fighting Pakistani SSG units and not the ragtag Afghan militia. When the US-backed "Pakistani Taliban" kidnapped Colonel Imam, Mullah Omer himself sent a delegation to request that he be freed.

Very recently when the US pressured Pakistan on the Haqqani group after Adm. Mike Mullen's public statements alleging Pakistan having ties with this sub-group of the resistance, the central Afghan resistance issued public statements to the effect that Pakistan was not responsible for the Haqqani group. This surprised many international analysts, because the Mujahideen leadership was publically trying to alleviate pressure from Pakistan - they didn't have to come to Pakistan's help like that. The western intelligence agencies have been alleging for years that a segment within the ISI is playing a very similar role to the one they did in the 80's against the Soviet army, alleging that this segment(they call it the "S Wing" of the ISI) comes up with strategic planning and overall tactical direction and guidance for the Afghan resistance. I don't know if their allegations are true, but if it is, Pakistan is absolutely right to help the Afghans repel another invader. When we helped them in the 80's it was lauded internationally, our morality cannot simply re-define based on the US mood at the time.

So do some research, learn some facts, and then some and play some more. The Afghan victory against the Americans would be a victory for Islam and the Pakistani people, perhaps it might not be a victory for our political elite, but that's not bad really. India poured alot of money into the puppet regime in the Soviet era as well, the army India trains is the one the local resistance groups fight, this made the locals hate India then, and it makes them hate India now.

You are plain wrong though one can see why you are compelled to think along these lines.

Anyways, there are good chances that it will be Afghanistan that will attack Pakistan's Western borders as soon as it has a semblance of stability. It didn't recognize Pakistan when it was created and claims its tribal areas.

I personally think India should help Pakistan if there is ever an attack across the Khyber.
 
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Yes - one must distinguish between "feel good" statements and reality. I bet it feels good to think about the Afghans siding with India in any future war. But let's look at the facts.

First off, we're not expecting them to side with anyone. Our contribution to them is that as long as they don't turn hostile towards our people.

Afghanistan has heavily leaned on Pakistan for the past thirty years. Though in the past, during the British era, Afghanistan closed it's borders when Muslims tried to migrate away from British rule, Pakistan buried the hatchet and literally one-third of Afghanistan moved into Pakistan. We took a principled stand and helped our Afghan brothers, US support started coming after two years(when the war started, CIA expected the mighty Red Army to crush the resistance within three months - they had been undefeated thus far), and for two years Pakistan supported the Afghan Mujahideen on it's own.

This is where you are wrong and misguided. Afghanistan is not a formal country these days for the last 30 years. There is nothing "undefeated" about them. Thousands dead due to jihad, then foreign powers coming in; basic infrastructure crumbled, thousands of acres of fertile land reduced to deserts, tonnes worth of arable crop land value gone to null, no medical care, no communication, no developments of modern infrastructure. All this is certainly not what one considers victory. It is easy to sit and talk out side Pakistan itself as most Pakistanis here are non-resident Pakistanis, living comfortable lives in the western countries that they curse. But one would realize what it means to be surviving in this nightmare only when they live and suffer the hell today's common Afghan is suffering. All because of the ego of your generals. Today Afghans are not so angry at USA because they know that US never told them to retain Taliban after USSR-Afghan war. It was you who retained them and nurtured them.
Under Taliban, the country was drawn into the worst period of medieval mentality any nation was subjected to. Illogical laws, unbearable fundamentalism, no modern facilities, endless crazy restrictions, ruthless persecution of minorities and non-Sunnis... the country became unbearable. Pakistan itself would never want this insanity for even one day, let alone imposing it on some other country.

The reality is far from that. The Soviets were not present in Afghanistan to fight against entire Afghans but the guerilla Taliban. The Russians were trained to fight against Europeans in the Eurasian plains. Not perilous mountains. The form of organized armed forces was for the first time in modern history exposed to guerilla warfare in mountains. Neither Taliban/Mujahideen were invincible nor the Soviets were intending to destroy Afghanistan. Most of you wash these realities under the carpet to feel good about the "invincible Muslim" image. It is nothing but a comedy outside your own imagination and outside Pakistan.

Afghans never wanted what they got in last 30 years. Had you not meddled with them, Afghanistan would have crushed the fundamentalists and today been another Turkey of Asia in terms of peace and development. The hate that most Afghans have today living either in Afghanistan or in other countries is the result of your actions with USA in 80s in their nation. The much touted 1/3rd of Afghanistan living in your country was not your mercy or their good luck; they simply had nowhere to go. The other side was Soviet Union dealing with its own troubled economy and closing off borders. This side was only you. The third side was a new regime in Iran; unpredictable and new to the game. So there was simply no way you had any other option but to either accept them or annihilate and entire country.


Tens of thousands of Pakistani youth joined the Afghan jihad, along with Muslims coming in from all over the world. The Pakistan Army SSG officer endearingly called "Colonel Imaam" trained Afghan groups in special forces warfare, and had also been a teacher of Mullah Omer, who now heads the Afghan resistance.

Resistance? You call that band of fundamentalists as "resistance"? Well I can imagine. Would you live under Mulla Omar's rule? No internet, no electricity, no computer, no music, no iphones, no movies, no cars, no petrol, no shows, no parties.... no nothing. Again, it is easy to sit and talk from modern Turkey that has world class infrastructure, a civilized society and an unbiased law. But in reality, when your own dear Taliban is imposed on you, you will hate them as much as Afghans are.

When the Soviets deployed their Spetznaz crack troops and the Mujahideen were overpowered in the face of superior tactics and high-tech weaponry, our SSG was covertly deployed deep inside Afghan territory to help the resistance.

And today the consequences of involving yourself in that war is coming and biting you in the same hand that you fed it with. In spite of a resurgent economy, it was not the Russians that punished Pakistan in recent times but your own ally who found you ou of their control. You had the choice of not participating in Afghan war then. If you'd done that, there would have been no second war. But your obsession with us and thus with Soviets got you involved with US and see what's happening. Even now, all your generals are defying this truth and continuing on the destructive path that Pakistani society is being taken towards.

There were pitched battles near areas such as Panjshair that the Soviets could not overwhelm, and even they publically raised protests about their suspicion that they were fighting Pakistani SSG units and not the ragtag Afghan militia. When the US-backed "Pakistani Taliban" kidnapped Colonel Imam, Mullah Omer himself sent a delegation to request that he be freed.

Soviets never had anything against you. Let's face it; if they did have anything against you directly, there would have been nothing you could do about it. Not just you, most countries would have never stood a chance against their juggernaut of destruction.You simply got your own future messed up by participating in this war which is evident even now very well.

I don't know if their allegations are true, but if it is, Pakistan is absolutely right to help the Afghans repel another invader. When we helped them in the 80's it was lauded internationally, our morality cannot simply re-define based on the US mood at the time.

CIA gave you the idea of Jihad and playing double agent. Do you seriously think they don't know about what you're upto? I don't know how the situation is going on between you two but the route map is no longer the obvious card you can hold against them. If you could, your generals would have again closed the route and warned US.

So do some research, learn some facts, and then some and play some more. The Afghan victory against the Americans would be a victory for Islam and the Pakistani people, perhaps it might not be a victory for our political elite, but that's not bad really.

There are some wiser Pakistanis here who have come out of the umma dreamland. You better learn from them and realize it as well. There is still chance for your country to de-link your fate from Afghanistan of 90s. Don't go down that lane. You will undo everything Jinnah dreamt of.

India poured alot of money into the puppet regime in the Soviet era as well, the army India trains is the one the local resistance groups fight, this made the locals hate India then, and it makes them hate India now.

Which is why our companies are loved and respected in Afghanistan, bringing civilization to their land. Except for the stone age savages called Taliban, no one hates us. And for what they have done, if we had a rational government, we'd ensure they're sent through all 16 pits of hell. Taliban has deserved the obliterative graves they're getting now at the hands of NATO drones. Expect the assaults to increase tenfold as the closing times come.

---------- Post added at 08:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:46 PM ----------

I personally think India should help Pakistan if there is ever an attack across the Khyber.

Then you're the weakest being of lowest standards of apologeticism I have seen. By the way if any government was to do this, it would be a political suicide and would spark nation wide unrest. Don't take AMAN KI ASHA idiots as representative of the entire country.
 
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Then you're the weakest being of lowest standards of apologeticism I have seen. By the way if any government was to do this, it would be a political suicide and would spark nation wide unrest. Don't take AMAN KI ASHA idiots as representative of the entire country.

I suggested it not for Pakistan but for Indian interests.

The borders of Indian subcontinent have to be defended at the Khyber. We have historically had weak armies defending that vital border resulting in much grief.

We can settle our issues with Pakistan (if any) any time. Let's not lose sight of the bigger issues.
 
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@Tshering22: You're going off in a dozen unrelated directions, and in most there are elementary factuals which are missing, that would contradict your narrative. I'm not sure what central point you were trying to make here.

For example, you're saying that the Soviet Army had not not come to Afghanistan to fight the Afghans:
The Soviets were not present in Afghanistan to fight against entire Afghans but the guerilla Taliban.
You might not be aware but the Taliban didn't exist during that era, they were formed in the mid-90s; the Soviets would have needed a time-machine to fight them in the 80's. Also, Soviet Generals commanding the Red Army seem to disagree with you when you're saying the Soviets weren't fighting the nation. Here's Gen. Igor Rodionov, Commander of the Red Army in Afghanistan had to say about their "peaceful" activities in Afghanistan:
"In Afghanistan, they still remember very well what the Soviets did there. We were not just planting trees there, as the Soviet TV was saying, we were waging war, we were killing people. As a result, we made a half of the nation stand up against us. It was a consequence of our actions."

"Islands of resistance began to appear one after another here and there. We committed terrible crimes there with our carpet bombings and volley-fire attacks. We were waging war against the people, who cursed us - they will never forget what we did. For Afghans, the Taliban is national resistance to foreign invasion. Why do so many Afghans support the Taliban? Because they have been dreaming about one thing only for 30 years: 'Leave us alone! Let us live!" But they won't let them. At first it was the USSR, now it is NATO."
Gen. Igor Rodionov
Rusisa goes back to Afghanistan for NATO? - English pravda.ru

So on the Afghan war, this guy's opinion completely trumps your opinion I'm afraid. This General was the bleeping Commander of the Russian army there. So you're wrong when you say that the Soviets were not intending to destroy Afghanistan. Soviets did intentionally destroy the nation, they aimed to wage a war of attrition, burning out entire villages where the resistance might take sanctuary, burning crops to cut their food supply. The resistance would disappear before the Soviets could engage them or retaliate, and this is how they dealt with that. The good General also refutes your claims that the Taliban aren't fighting a war of independence which enjoys wide support of the Afghan people.

The Soviets had been steadily expanding, from Poland to Czechoslovakia, Afghanistan was only the latest and last victim of their aggression. They tried meddling inside Afghanistan covertly, supporting coups, trying to install puppets, assassinating unfavorable Presidents, and when that failed, they invaded. Once their invasion started to flop, only then did they begin to whine and complain about how they didn't really want to be in Afghanistan in the first place, only beginning in the mid-80's. The Soviets tried to oppress the Afghan nation, but miserably failed.

The Russians were trained to fight against Europeans in the Eurasian plains. Not perilous mountains. The form of organized armed forces was for the first time in modern history exposed to guerilla warfare in mountains. Neither Taliban/Mujahideen were invincible nor the Soviets were intending to destroy Afghanistan.

Europe has huge, lofty mountain ranges(The Alps) and so does Russia, the Soviet Army was trained to fight in the mountains. Afghanistan has vast plains as well. Also, the Russian armed forces have been fighting against guerrilla warfare tactics in the mountaneous Dagestan region since the 18th century. That resistance movement still goes on in Chechnya and Dagestan, and has been going on for quiet a while. This was obviously not the first time an army faced guerrilla tactics. Even the American war of Independence(in 1776) was won with guerrilla warfare when facing England's organized armed forces. Your knowledge of history is rather inaccurate I'm afraid.

Resistance? You call that band of fundamentalists as "resistance"? Well I can imagine.
Your opinion belittling the Afghan resistance's strength, is unfounded as well unfortunately. The Afghans resisted the Red Army like they've resisted every invader. These people have resisted every foreign invader from Alexander the "great" to Tsarist Russia, Imperial Britain, the Soviets, and most recently the US and it's NATO puppets. The British sent in multiple invading armies back when Britain was at the height of it's power, and every time they retreated with heavy losses. They gave up after their invading army was completely annihilated, with only one British soldier sent back to tell the tale. These people have been the most effective resistance force in recorded history - they've repelled every invader, and annihilated superpowers, much like the USSR and now the USA. No wonder India's been very afraid of them, every time India tried to plot and scheme against them, they've rolled in and defeated every Indian army at Panipat. They've won every friggin' time, much to the humiliation of Prithvi and many other Indian leaders.

Today Afghans are not so angry at USA because they know that US never told them to retain Taliban after USSR-Afghan war. It was you who retained them and nurtured them.
So the Afghans blame Pakistan for the Soviet and American invasions??! That is absurd. This jingoistic hatred is understandable but hardly logical. Afghans are somehow supposed to "hate" Pakistan for supporting the Afghans during the Soviet invasion, because otherwise the "extremist" freedom fighters would have been eliminated? Weren't you the one talking about looking at the facts, rather than "feel good" statements. Pakistan did host 1/3rd of Afghanistan here, many neighbors seal borders and move their military to the border areas to keep other people in their own country. Pakistan was the neighbor that didn't, they were also granted special permits to work and earn a living, though the economy was under alot of strain due to the war.

I already pointed out to you how even recently, when the US was pressuring Pakistan on having ties with one of the factions of the Afghan resistance(the Haqqani group), the main Afghan resistance issued public statements to the effect that Pakistan was not responsible for the Haqqani group, as this group held allegiance to Mullah Omer. And that Pakistan was not responsible for their activities. They were, in effect, coming to Pakistan's aid diplomatically, and trying to alleviate pressure from Pakistan by contradicting US accusations.. The Afghan resistance controls over 80% of the territory, a fact even western sources now acknowledge. Outside a few major cities, the Taliban control the majority of the territory. Even the Americans are trying to negotiate with them, to cut a deal so the Americans can retreat and withdraw with their dignity in-tact. Given how the Afghans were trying to diplomatically alleviate International pressure from Pakistan, they clearly don't seem to hate Pakistan very much.

Like I told you earlier, according to western allegations, a group within the ISI("S Wing") even provides the Afghan resistance logistics and strategic support, much like they did during the 80's. They are helping the Afghans repel this foreign invader as well, the Americans were lauding this is a great freedom struggle back then, even saying that the resistance leaders were "the moral equivalent of America's founding fathers". They were good then because the Americans said they were good, and they're bad now because the Americans say so?

And I don't think you know very much about the Taliban or their history. Much of what you're stating is western propaganda word-for-word. For example, the Taliban actually arose out of the civil war Afghanistan was in after the US reneged on all promises to help rebuild the country after the war they'd funded. The US was only interested in making the Soviets "have their Vietnam", where they'd get defeated and humiliated like the US was in Vietnam(and again now, in Afghanistan). Out of the anarchy, the Taliban arose and promised brutal justice. They were a product of the time, and not under Pakistan's influence. For example, when Pakistan demanded that the Haqqani group turn over some of their people involved in fighting inside Pakistan, the group flatly refused. Pakistan tried everything in their control to get Mullah Omar to surrender Osama bin Laden, the Mullah Omar refused to do so without the US providing any evidence first. Later on, he agreed to turn Osama bin Laden over to the International Court of Justice(and not to the US), but the US was interested in having a war and continued down that path. Even now, the only evidence they've managed to produce, are some grainy home videos with some chubby guy who's facial bone structure is very different from bin Laden's, fessing up to blowing up some buildings.

The Indian media loves to claim that it's actually al these militant movements causing anarchy in Pakistan. Actually, we went through a very similar phase during the 80's. The KGB agents caused a slew of bombings and assassinations in Pakistan, with the Indian RAW folks riding on their shoulders. After the war ended, this stopped as well. During this war, CIA assets have repeatedly been found in Pakistan, including high-level cases like Raymond Davis, even near military installations. America was saying he wasn't CIA, but he got arrested in the US again, and the judiciary was told that he was a CIA agent. And India seems to be eager to help as well, the media's covered Indian-manufactured weaponry being used by these terrorists. With America desperate to run back home, this should end pretty soon as well. Already, the militants are pretty well under control.

That might not be very good news for India. During the 80's Afghan resistance, Muslims came from all over the world to participate in the Jihad, Americans actually facilitated that. After the war was over, Muslim freedom struggles got a boost all over the world, from Palestine(the Hamas movement, because PLO was being influenced by Israel), to Chechnya to Kashmir. India has had a very hard time there. The Indian government has a very heavy-handed approach towards it's own people, almost as if they're second-grade citizens in their own country. The Maoists fighting in the seven provinces, to Kashmiri Muslims to Sikhs who Indian law humiliates by forcing them to marry as Hindus.

Your narrative on the Afghan situation is divorced from the facts.
 
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@Tshering22: You're going off in a dozen unrelated directions, and in most there are elementary factuals which are missing, that would contradict your narrative. I'm not sure what central point you were trying to make here.

For example, you're saying that the Soviet Army had not not come to Afghanistan to fight the Afghans:

You might not be aware but the Taliban didn't exist during that era, they were formed in the mid-90s; the Soviets would have needed a time-machine to fight them in the 80's. Also, Soviet Generals commanding the Red Army seem to disagree with you when you're saying the Soviets weren't fighting the nation. Here's Gen. Igor Rodionov, Commander of the Red Army in Afghanistan had to say about their "peaceful" activities in Afghanistan:

Rusisa goes back to Afghanistan for NATO? - English pravda.ru

So on the Afghan war, this guy's opinion completely trumps your opinion I'm afraid. He's General was the bleeping Commander of the Russian army there. So you're wrong when you say that the Soviets weren't intending to destroy Afghanistan. Soviets did intentionally destroy the nation, they aimed to wage a war of attrition, burning out entire villages where the resistance might take sanctuary, burning crops to cut their food supply. The resistance would disappear before the Soviets could engage them or retaliate, and this is how they dealt with that. The good General also refutes your claims that the Taliban aren't fighting a war of independence which enjoys wide support of the Afghan people.

The Soviets had been steadily expanding, from Poland to Czechoslovakia, Afghanistan was only the latest and last victim of their aggression. They tried meddling inside Afghanistan covertly, supporting coups, trying to install puppets, assassinating unfavorable Presidents, and when that failed, they invaded. Once their invasion started to flop, only then did they began to whine and complain about how they didn't really want to be in Afghanistan in the first place, only beginning in the mid-80's. The Soviets tried to oppress the Afghan nation, but miserably failed.



Europe has huge, lofty mountain ranges(The Alps) and so does Russia, and the Soviets were trained to fight in the mountains. Afghanistan has vast plains as well. Also, the Russian armed forces have been fighting against guerrilla warfare tactics in the mountaneous Dagestan region since the 18th century. That resistance movement still goes on, in Chechnya and Dagestan, and has been going on for quiet a while. This was obviously not the first time an army faced guerrilla tactics. Even the American war of Independence(in 1776) was won with guerrilla warfare. Your knowledge of history is rather inaccurate I'm afraid.


Your opinion belittling the Afghan resistance's strength, is unfounded as well unfortunately. The Afghans resisted the Red Army like they've resisted every invader. These people have resisted every foreign invader from Alexander the "great" to Tsarist Russia, Imperial Britain, the Soviets, and most recently the US and it's NATO puppets. The British sent in multiple invading armies back when Britain was at the height of it's power, and every time they retreated with heavy losses. They gave up after their invading army was completely annihilated, with only one British soldier sent back to tell the tale. These people have been the most effective resistance force in recorded history - they've repelled every invader, and annihilated superpowers, much like the USSR and now the USA. No wonder India's been very afraid of them, every time India tried to plot and scheme against them, they've rolled in and defeated every Indian army at Panipat. They've won every friggin' time, much to the humiliation of Indian leaders.
So the Afghans blame Pakistan for the Soviet and American invasions??! That is absurd. This jingoistic hatred is understandable but hardly logical. Afghans are somehow supposed to "hate" Pakistan for supporting the Afghans during the Soviet invasion, because otherwise the "extremist" Taliban would have been eliminated? Weren't you the one talking about looking at the facts, rather than "feel good" statements. Pakistan did host 1/3rd of Afghanistan here, many neighbors seal borders and move their military to the border areas to keep other people in their own country. Pakistan was the neighbor that didn't, they were also granted special permits to work and earn a living, though the economy was under alot of strain due to the war.

I already pointed out to you how even recently, when the US was pressuring Pakistan on having ties with one of the factions of the Afghan resistance(the Haqqani group), the main Afghan resistance issued public statements to the effect that Pakistan was not responsible for the Haqqani group, as this group held allegiance to Mullah Omer. And that Pakistan was not responsible for their activities. They were, in effect, coming to Pakistan's aid diplomatically, and trying to alleviate pressure from Pakistan by contradicting US accusations.. The Afghan resistance controls over 80% of the territory, a fact even western sources now acknowledge. Outside a few major cities, the Taliban control the majority of the territory. Even the Americans are trying to negotiate with them, to cut a deal so the Americans can retreat and withdraw with their dignity in-tact. Given how the Afghans were trying to diplomatically alleviate International pressure from Pakistan, they clearly don't seem to hate Pakistan very much.

Like I told you earlier, according to western allegations, a group within the ISI("S Wing") even provides the Afghan resistance logistics and strategic support, much like they did during the 80's. They are helping the Afghans repel this foreign invader as well, the Americans were lauding this is a great freedom struggle back then, even saying that the resistance leaders were "the moral equivalent of America's founding fathers".

And I don't think you know very much about the Taliban or their history. Much of what you're stating is western propaganda word-for-word. For example, the Taliban actually arose out of the civil war Afghanistan was in after the US reneged on all promises to help rebuild the country after the war they'd funded. The US was only interested in making the Soviets "have their Vietnam", where they'd get defeated and humiliated like the US was in Vietnam(and again now, in Afghanistan). Out of the anarchy, the Taliban arose and promised brutal justice. They were a product of the time, and not under Pakistan's influence. For example, when Pakistan demanded that the Haqqani group turn over some of their people involved in fighting inside Pakistan, the group flatly refused. Pakistan tried everything in their control to get Mullah Omar to surrender Osama bin Laden, the Mullah Omar refused to do so without the US providing any evidence first. Later on, he agreed to turn Osama bin Laden over to the International Court of Justice(and not to the US), but the US was interested in having a war and continued down that path. Even now, the only evidence they've managed to produce, are some grainy home videos with some chubby guy who's facial bone structure is very different from bin Laden's, fessing up to blowing up some buildings.

The Indian media loves to claim that it's actually al these militant movements causing anarchy in Pakistan. Actually, we went through a very similar phase during the 80's. The KGB agents caused a slew of bombings and assassinations in Pakistan, with the Indian RAW folks riding on their shoulders. After the war ended, this stopped as well. During this war, CIA assets have repeatedly been found in Pakistan, even near military installations. And India seems to be eager to help as well, the media's covered Indian-manufactured weaponry being used by these terrorists. But with America desperate to run back home, this should end pretty soon as well.

That might not be very good news for India. During the 80's Afghan resistance, Muslims came from all over the world to participate in the Jihad, Americans actually facilitated that. After the war was over, Muslim freedom struggles got a boost all over the world, from Palestine(the Hamas movement, because PLO was being influenced by Israel), to Chechnya to Kashmir. India has had a very hard time there. The Indian government has a very heavy-handed approach towards it's own people, almost as if they're second-grade citizens in their own country. The Maoists fighting in the seven provinces, to Kashmiri Muslims to Sikhs who Indian law humiliates by forcing them to marry as Hindus.

Your narrative on the Afghan situation is divorced from the facts.

The bold part is factually incorrect .Secondly for your knowledge Pakistani leaders too lost wars to those Afghan invaders as Pakistan was a part of India then .

If you can get such basic , elementary stuff wrong what is the point of reading other stuff you wrote ? Stop copying text from your Pakistani school text books.
 
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The bold part is factually incorrect .Secondly for your knowledge Pakistani leaders too lost wars to those Afghan invaders as Pakistan was a part of India then .

If you can get such basic , elementary stuff wrong what is the point of reading other stuff you wrote ? Stop copying text from your Pakistani school text books.

Facts is not something some people are comfortable with.

E.g. Afghans have been defeated multiple times in history. Maharaja Ranjit Singh defeated them with a much smaller force. The British were controlling 2/3 of the Pushtuns till 1947. The Mongols carried out several genocides of the Afghans (in millions and millions), Babur rolled over them before he reached India.

He calls Pushtuns as cowards in his book who would surrender with grass in their mouth (to show that they are his cows now). He made heaps of their skulls in the barbaric style of the Mongols.
 
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That was an excellent post by Qasibir. Everybody should read it twice.
 
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I suggested it not for Pakistan but for Indian interests.

The borders of Indian subcontinent have to be defended at the Khyber. We have historically had weak armies defending that vital border resulting in much grief.

We can settle our issues with Pakistan (if any) any time. Let's not lose sight of the bigger issues.

weak armies defending the khyber historically? :D

you must be joking. if they were indians, they'd have run a mile. the main route to the indian subcontinent through the northwest has been traditionally very difficult to pass through.
 
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weak armies defending the khyber historically? :D

you must be joking. if they were indians, they'd have run a mile. the main route to the indian subcontinent through the northwest has been traditionally very difficult to pass through.

All the attacks before the British have come from that route. The people there mostly just rolled down and played dead. Any attacker would just steamroll over these areas and the real fight will be provided in Indian Punjab or beyond.

Unfortunately the stronger kingdoms in the heartland didn't support the weak and smaller border provinces and the people there lost their all.

I feel sad for these people. They were unfortunate that they happened to at that time and place.
 
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Interesting audio interview about the Taliban from their perspective.
 
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Facts is not something some people are comfortable with.

E.g. Afghans have been defeated multiple times in history. Maharaja Ranjit Singh defeated them with a much smaller force.

Ranjit Singh wasn't an exceptional foe, an average one maybe. He might have been cunning in that he picked the right time to launch attacks against his enemies while they were weakened and fighting amongst themselves. But he was unable to occupy conquered territory for very long suggests this to be true.

The Sikh Empire lasted about 20 years. The Soviet Empire 10 years, the Greek Empire about 50 years. It was nothing of significance, plus he had a lot of local knowledge.

The British were controlling 2/3 of the Pushtuns till 1947.

it wasn't 2/3 for sure. Bits of the settled areas of nwfp were under control, the remainder, and all the other areas were not. They were autonomously ruled.

The Mongols carried out several genocides of the Afghans (in millions and millions), Babur rolled over them before he reached India.

He calls Pushtuns as cowards in his book who would surrender with grass in their mouth (to show that they are his cows now). He made heaps of their skulls in the barbaric style of the Mongols.

You sound like you're salivating at the thought of genocide here.

Here's what happened.

1221 -- crosses the Oxus into northern Afghanistan. His youngest son sacks towns in Persia. Sultan Jalal al-Din, the son of Sultan Muhammad, wins a battle at Parvan, north of Kabul, Afghanistan, but is then defeated on the banks of the Indus River. Genghis Khan starts back home.

So again you're wrong. Genghis Khan did conquer northern Afghanistan, true, and Herat.

But he did not conquer the Pashtuns as stated above.

"

---------- Post added at 07:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:22 PM ----------

All the attacks before the British have come from that route. The people there mostly just rolled down and played dead. Any attacker would just steamroll over these areas and the real fight will be provided in Indian Punjab or beyond.

Unfortunately the stronger kingdoms in the heartland didn't support the weak and smaller border provinces and the people there lost their all.

I feel sad for these people. They were unfortunate that they happened to at that time and place.

Yes, genius, well done :D

All the attacks have come from the Khyber. You know wwwwwhy?

Because you cannot invade the subcontinent by land from any other route. The Himalayas block it. It is true now as then. That is why everyone tries to invade from the northwest.
 
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No one is going to attack Pakistan, and we have this useless guy who does not remember what is taking the following day and we have a thread on haveing ****$ fight.
 
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Ranjit Singh wasn't an exceptional foe. He might have been cunning in that he picked the right time to launch attacks against his enemies while they were weakened and fighting amongst themselves. That he was unable to occupy conquered territory for very long suggests this to be true.

The Sikh Empire lasted about 20 years. The Soviet Empire 10 years, the Greek Empire about 50 years. It was nothing of significance, plus he had a lot of local knowledge.

He was a great military leader. He even treated those Afghans pretty well, despite what they did to the Golden temple.

The Sikhs and Soviets were defeated by the British and US arms, not by the Pushtun tribals.

it wasn't 2/3 for sure. Bits of the settled areas of nwfp were under control, the remainder, and all the other areas were not. They were autonomously ruled.

The British didn't bother to rule these lawless people. They just made rules like collective punishment or dropping bombs from airplanes. This was because they considered them lawless and barbarians.

The Northwest and Iraq were the only places where airplanes were used to drop bombs on civilians.

You sound like you're salivating at the thought of genocide here.

Here's what happened.

1221 -- crosses the Oxus into northern Afghanistan. His youngest son sacks towns in Persia. Sultan Jalal al-Din, the son of Sultan Muhammad, wins a battle at Parvan, north of Kabul, Afghanistan, but is then defeated on the banks of the Indus River. Genghis Khan starts back home.

So again you're wrong. Genghis Khan did conquer northern Afghanistan, true, and Herat.

But he did not conquer the Pashtuns as stated above.

He also killed every last soul in Herat. Most of the army of that coward Jalal was Pushtun. So obviously Pusthuns were defeated by Genghis (and later by Babur who calls them cowards as they surrendered with grass in their mouths).

Yes, genius, well done :D

All the attacks have come from the Khyber. You know wwwwwhy?

Because you cannot invade the subcontinent by land from any other route. The Himalayas block it. It is true now as then. That is why everyone tries to invade from the northwest.

That's why I think the invaders need to be stopped there.

The people of that area were just not up to it and are not up to it now.
 
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