If Grexit happens would Greece be allowed to side with Russia/China?

[jamahir]

Greece fears return of left-wing terrorism | Europe | DW.COM | 08.01.2014

viva la revolucion !!

 

[Serpentine]

6nmi

12nmi

A pic worth a thousand words they say. Thanks, explains it all.

I support Turkey's claim in this matter, because 12 nmi in such situations where there are Greek islands just off the Turkish coast (and that they are too close to each other), doesn't make sense at all, and neither it is fair.

I assume right now, the 6 nmi is being applied, right? Since Turkish ships go from Black sea to Mediterranean now?

The whole point of so many Greek islands very close to Turkish soil is not fair, and a result of Ottoman defeat in WWI, as always, westerners enforcing their wills as the winners. Was it not for Independence war, they would claim much more.

 

[xenon54 out]

A pic worth a thousand words they say. Thanks, explains it all.

I support Turkey's claim in this matter, because 12 nmi in such situations where there are Greek islands just off the Turkish coast (and that they are too close to each other), doesn't make sense at all, and neither it is fair.

I assume right now, the 6 nmi is being applied, right? Since Turkish ships go from Black sea to Mediterranean now?

Yes right now its 6nmi, and its unlikely Turkey would accept the international 12nmi law for obvious reasons.

The whole point of so many Greek islands very close to Turkish soil is not fair, and a result of Ottoman defeat in WWI, as always, westerners enforcing their wills as the winners. Was it not for Independence war, they would claim much more.

Well, the islands came under Greek control when Ottomans were busy with trying not to go down and as you said without independence war the situtation would look like this.

In the end Turkey accepted largely that the Islands belong to Greece apart from some small disputed ones, this issue is buried for Turks but accepting 12 nmi law is a no go, sure everything might be great when things stay calm but in a war situtation Greece could shut down Aegean for Turkish ships.
In my personal opinion Turks accepted the Islands belonging to Greece and accepted the Regime of Straits which allows all civilian ships and military ones to a certain tonnage to pass regardless of the nationality in peace times, now Greeks should accept 6nmi for a more fair share of Aegean sea, otherwise this conflict might go on forever.

 

[Serpentine]

Yes right now its 6nmi, and its unlikely Turkey would accept the international 12nmi law for obvious reasons.


Well, the islands came under Greek control when Ottomans were busy with trying not to go down and as you said without independence war the situtation would look like this.

In the end Turkey accepted largely that the Islands belong to Greece apart from some small disputed ones, this issue is buried for Turks but accepting 12 nmi law is a no go, sure everything might be great when things stay calm but in a war situtation Greece could shut down Aegean for Turkish ships.
In my personal opinion Turks accepted the Islands belonging to Greece and accepted the Regime of Straits which allows all civilian ships and military ones to a certain tonnage to pass regardless of the nationality in peace times, now Greeks should accept 6nmi for a more fair share of Aegean sea, otherwise this conflict might go on forever.

There is not much Greece can do now, and they certainly won't start a full scale war for it, hence the 6 nmi will remain, and that's in interest of both sides. Greeks have already got what they deserved.

PS: Turkey already has access to Mediterranean through its southern coast, so, there wouldn't be a huge problem in case of a war (like a naval blockade or cutting its access to open seas).

 

[xenon54 out]

There is not much Greece can do now, and they certainly won't start a full scale war for it, hence the 6 nmi will remain, and that's in interest of both sides. Greeks have already got what they deserved.

Well their biggest argument is the International law so its not that easy for Turkey even thought Greece cant go to full scale war with Turkey but the thing is Turkey didnt ratify this law.

Much like Israel not ratifying the NPT.

 

[As is - where is]

If it is already 58% down and Greece can't afford fuel or to maintain its tanks and jets at current expenditure, just imagine when more cuts come down the road. I mean you can have the physical military assets but without training they are useless. IMHO Greece should switch to a ceremonial army with those Greek revolution costumes. The current army expenditure of Greece is not feasible in the future. It doesn't matter if Greece stays in or out of EU. Greece has to come to good terms with its neighbors. Somehow Greece managed to be hostile to all its neighbors; Albania, Macedonia, Bulgaria and Turkey at the same time. It has used EU leverage and military leverage but that is not an option anymore.

Well Greece pretty much stopped buying new equipment in recent years and lowered greatly the wages of soldiers and officers. Thats were most savings from the military came from. The truth is that cuts in general are needed, it's just that the military is not the first place you'll look for to start cutting expenditure... First we need to reform the social security/pension system to make it viable. Then we need to sell organizations from the so-called "wider public" which is basically the airports, public television etc. If we did those two we'd have a surplus now and there would be no need for any military cuts or tax raises.

In the end Turkey accepted largely that the Islands belong to Greece apart from some small disputed ones, this issue is buried for Turks but accepting 12 nmi law is a no go, sure everything might be great when things stay calm but in a war situtation Greece could shut down Aegean for Turkish ships.

I see your "point" here although I'm fairly sure that no navy is going to be limited by its territorial waters in a case of war. Naval battles would happen in both territorial and international waters in a case of war. It's ships and submarines that can shut down sea routes and not laws. In theory if the Hellenic Navy was capable of "shutting down the Aegean" if Greece had 12 nmi, it would still have that capability if Greece had 6 nmi.

 

[xenon54 out]

I see your "point" here although I'm fairly sure that no navy is going to be limited by its territorial waters in a case of war. Naval battles would happen in both territorial and international waters in a case of war. It's ships and submarines that can shut down sea routes and not laws. In theory if the Hellenic Navy was capable of "shutting down the Aegean" if Greece had 12 nmi, it would still have that capability if Greece had 6 nmi.

Yes your right that in case of war territorial claims dont have much of worth, i should have added that in case of 12nmi, in peace times Turkish ships would have to pass Greek waters, there are enough reasons to prevent this as we can see it in our recent history.

You might have noticed (or maybe not) that im all for friendly relationship between our countries, either way solving the disputes would only be benefical for booth sides, im just pointing out the Turkish point of view.

 

[Wine&Steak]

GREXIT is not going to happen. if one country leaves Euro, the other peripheral countries will face the same issue and their bond yields will go up.

Greece is now in Budget surplus for coupe of years. The only problem is servicing it's debt. Euro leaders will politically intervene and defer interest payments or replace those high yield bonds to low yield ones, until Greece repairs itself.

I have personally bet on Greece being in the Euro by buying a Greek bank at the bottom approx 1 months ago. already up 30%. Greece stays in Euro. Euro project is a political project, much more than a economic one.

 

[As is - where is]

Yes your right that in case of war territorial claims dont have much of worth, i should have added that in case of 12nmi, in peace times Turkish ships would have to pass Greek waters, there are enough reasons to prevent this as we can see it in our recent history.

You might have noticed (or maybe not) that im all for friendly relationship between our countries, either way solving the disputes would only be benefical for booth sides, im just pointing out the Turkish point of view.

I think a compromise could be made for sure. Even though innocent passage exists in theory as we speak I doubt either Turkey or Greece is eager to let each others' military ships in their territorial waters. On the other hand they both welcome US or Italian (for example) military ships near their coasts. If we could both actually guarantee that we would implement innocent passage laws and as thus allow each others' military ships to pass from our territorial waters (except from times of war/military crisis etc) I'm confident that both countries could agree to 12nmi... And that would also solve the problem of national airspace, where international law says that it must be equal to the territorial waters but Greece claims to have 10nmi airspace and 6nmi territorial waters.

 

[atatwolf]

Yes right now its 6nmi, and its unlikely Turkey would accept the international 12nmi law for obvious reasons.


Well, the islands came under Greek control when Ottomans were busy with trying not to go down and as you said without independence war the situtation would look like this.

In the end Turkey accepted largely that the Islands belong to Greece apart from some small disputed ones, this issue is buried for Turks but accepting 12 nmi law is a no go, sure everything might be great when things stay calm but in a war situtation Greece could shut down Aegean for Turkish ships.
In my personal opinion Turks accepted the Islands belonging to Greece and accepted the Regime of Straits which allows all civilian ships and military ones to a certain tonnage to pass regardless of the nationality in peace times, now Greeks should accept 6nmi for a more fair share of Aegean sea, otherwise this conflict might go on forever.

These islands became under Italian control not Greek control. Italians had strong navy while ottomans didn't have a navy worth to mention. Ottomans didn't have a navy because they had their finger up their ***. In ww2 Italians lost the war and the islands were ceded to Greece for having served as canon fodder for the British French war effort. Today some islands that belong to us (according to 1923 treaty) are occupied by Greeks during AKP rule. For some reason AKP is bowing to everybody. I'm afraid we will loose those islands and we will also loose other things if we don't change our policies.