If china had not attacked india, would pakistan have won the 65 war?

[deckingraj]

I don't agree.......
India never expected that China could attack........ Our eastern border was not secured enough....China was not a strong army that time...but we were not ready for them and that is why China got the edge...........For Pakistan we always knew they could attack any time so we were strong on western border...There was no effect of western border of 1962.....But 1962 war ensure India to secure all the border line....

Bold part is not correct in totality...We lost the skirmish prior to 65 in Sir-Creek...and they nearly pushed us out in J&K...However sanity prevailed in our ranks and we simply attacked Lahore...Had Pakistani's been better prepared on IB side their plan might have worked....Anyhow if's/but's doesn't matter...65 was a stalemate(though in my eyes we won) and thereafter there was no looking back...67/87 skirmish with China, 71, Siachen, Kargil with Pak are proofs to it...

 

[Kyusuibu Honbu]

Bold part is not correct in totality...We lost the skirmish prior to 65 in Sir-Creek...and they nearly pushed us out in J&K...However sanity prevailed in our ranks and we simply attacked Lahore...Had Pakistani's been better prepared on IB side their plan might have worked....Anyhow if's/but's doesn't matter...65 was a stalemate(though in my eyes we won) and thereafter there was no looking back...67/87 skirmish with China, 71, Siachen, Kargil with Pak are proofs to it...

Er............where did you get the bolded part from?

Pakistan put us in a difficult position in Kashmir, but not in a position to overwhelm Indian forces there.

Anyway, here is the CIA chronology of the events.

 

[SQ8]

Er............where did you get the bolded part from?

Pakistan put us in a difficult position in Kashmir, but not in a position to overwhelm Indian forces there.

Anyway, here is the CIA chronology of the events.

This is from Gen jogindar singh's Behind the Scene where he states that the IA GOC did not carry out the orders of the COAS to move troops to Chammb-jaurian Sector.
After which Operations "faulad" and "bakhsi" were launched.. these were crucial in controlling the Kargil and Kishanganga bulge and would have led to the massacre of the infiltration force anyway... ending Op Gibraltar there and then.
Whatever advantage Pakistan had.. was in the capture of Akhnur.. which was the sole jugular of Kashmir then..
however.. Ayub's dilly dallying and lack of decision led to a half launched Op Grand slam..And gave Gen Chaudry the time to launch operation "Ablaze".

Pakistan's defeats.. have been brought out less by its opponents.. and more by its leadership.

 

[CaptainJackSparrow]

Pakistan's defeats.. have been brought out less by its opponents.. and more by its leadership.

That's a generic truth, you know, which holds for all losing sides in all the wars ever seen in human history.

It also happens to be a pretty convenient cover.

 

[deckingraj]

Er............where did you get the bolded part from?

Pakistan put us in a difficult position in Kashmir, but not in a position to overwhelm Indian forces there.

Anyway, here is the CIA chronology of the events.

They were in a very superior position...Had the assault continued we surely would have been pushed out...There is a reason that instead of pushing back the advancing PA in J&K we chose to attack by crossing the IB...We all know the reason...To relieve pressure on troops in J&K...

 

[shuntmaster]

If china had not attacked india, would pakistan have won the 65 war?

I am inclined to think so.

A very stupid question. Pakistan did not not win the 1965 war. At the end of the war, Pakistan did not achieve its original objective of capturing J&K, but instead ended up just barely defending its second largest city Lahore from being falling into enemy hands.

 

[shuntmaster]

you still have not come up with a good argument against what i said

There is no good answer to a stupid question which is based on a wrong premise.

 

[Shinigami]

Pakistan's defeats.. have been brought out less by its opponents.. and more by its leadership.

every defeat faced by an army is almost always because of its leadership

what is your opinion? ie If china had not attacked india, would pakistan have won the 65 war?

A very stupid question. Pakistan did not not win the 1965 war. At the end of the war, Pakistan did not achieve its original objective of capturing J&K, but instead ended up just barely defending its second largest city Lahore from being falling into enemy hands.

There is no good answer to a stupid question which is based on a wrong premise.

i was pointing out to a chain of causality which the chinese attack caused in the indian military. you have not been able to comprehend my question

 

[shuntmaster]

Bold part is not correct in totality...We lost the skirmish prior to 65 in Sir-Creek...and they nearly pushed us out in J&K...However sanity prevailed in our ranks and we simply attacked Lahore...Had Pakistani's been better prepared on IB side their plan might have worked....Anyhow if's/but's doesn't matter...65 was a stalemate(though in my eyes we won) and thereafter there was no looking back...67/87 skirmish with China, 71, Siachen, Kargil with Pak are proofs to it...

Er............where did you get the bolded part from?

Pakistan put us in a difficult position in Kashmir, but not in a position to overwhelm Indian forces there.

Anyway, here is the CIA chronology of the events.

Exactly.. India repulsed Pakistan's land-grab in J&K through operation Gibraltar. The counter attack was so successful that the Pakistanis were fearful of loosing Muzaffarabad, the capital of Azad Kashmir (P-O-K). To relive the pressure on Muzaffarabad, Pakistan army launched Operation Grandslam in Akhnoor sector (Chicken neck) of Jammu, to cut-off whole of J&K state from India. That was when India escalated the conflict across the international border by attacking the Lahore sector.

 

[nalandapride]

3 years are nothing to modernize army for a war but still I feel Operation Gibraltar was the greatest blunder done by Pakistan in 1965. The pre-1965 economic boom halted, Pakistan military suffered a huge loss, sense of insecurity prevailed in East Pakistan leading to Mujib urging separate Militia for East Pakistan in 6 points and more political instability. And I believe if Pakistan hadn't created nuisance by Operation Gibraltar, India hadn't interfered much in Pakistan's Civil War.

 

[shuntmaster]

every defeat faced by an army is almost always because of its leadership

what is your opinion? ie If china had not attacked india, would pakistan have won the 65 war?


i was pointing out to a chain of causality which the chinese attack caused in the indian military. you have not been able to comprehend my question

So what exactly is your question? your original post is based on the premise that Pakistan actually won in 1965.
If you ask whether 1965 Indo-Pak war would have happened if 1962 Sino-Indo war hadn't happened? the answer is most likely 'NO'. The 1962 drubbing that India got emboldened the Pakistanis to embark on the misadventure of 1965. But its still a matter of speculation on what exactly could or would have happened. There were lot many other variables also involved like Pakistans domestic politics and power dynamics, India's economic conditions, The Rann of Kuchh incidents, false sese of bravado in Pakistan aka. martial races delusion, belief that US will aid Pakistan etc.
If you ask if Pakistan really won in 1965? then the answer is a definite 'NO'.

 

[Kyusuibu Honbu]

This is from Gen jogindar singh's Behind the Scene where he states that the IA GOC did not carry out the orders of the COAS to move troops to Chammb-jaurian Sector.
After which Operations "faulad" and "bakhsi" were launched.. these were crucial in controlling the Kargil and Kishanganga bulge and would have led to the massacre of the infiltration force anyway... ending Op Gibraltar there and then.
Whatever advantage Pakistan had.. was in the capture of Akhnur.. which was the sole jugular of Kashmir then..
however.. Ayub's dilly dallying and lack of decision led to a half launched Op Grand slam..And gave Gen Chaudry the time to launch operation "Ablaze".

Pakistan's defeats.. have been brought out less by its opponents.. and more by its leadership.

Will give a read if i find it, though personally, i don't prefer the combatants to be unbiased.

 

[Kyusuibu Honbu]

3 years are nothing to modernize army for a war but still I feel Operation Gibraltar was the greatest blunder done by Pakistan in 1965. The pre-1965 economic boom halted, Pakistan military suffered a huge loss, sense of insecurity prevailed in East Pakistan leading to Mujib urging separate Militia for East Pakistan in 6 points and more political instability. And I believe if Pakistan hadn't created nuisance by Operation Gibraltar, India hadn't interfered much in Pakistan's Civil War.

1965 may be one of the reason, but India's interference in 1971 was mainly due to Pakistan's supports of NE separatists

 

[shuntmaster]

3 years are nothing to modernize army for a war but still I feel Operation Gibraltar was the greatest blunder done by Pakistan in 1965. The pre-1965 economic boom halted, Pakistan military suffered a huge loss, sense of insecurity prevailed in East Pakistan leading to Mujib urging separate Militia for East Pakistan in 6 points and more political instability. And I believe if Pakistan hadn't created nuisance by Operation Gibraltar, India hadn't interfered much in Pakistan's Civil War.

Exactly. 2 very important things happened in 1965 war which helped India in 1971.
The first was that Pakistan left East-Pakistan (now Bangladesh), which formed almost 50% of Pakistans population and landmass, completely unprotected from an Indian attack. This contributed to Bangladeshis disenchantment with Pakistan caused the unrest in East-Pakistan in 1971, which India exploited to the fullest.
The second was the learning that Indian military got in the 1965 war. Indian got to know Pakistans military strategies, strengths and weaknesses which it used to the fullest to its advantage in 1971. The most important lesson learnt was that India could check-mate Pakistan in Western sector. This was important because, Pakistans whole military strategy in East Pakistan was based on the premise that 'defence of East was in the west' i.e. in case of war in East-Pakistan, west-Pakistan would make huge territorial gains in the west Viz. J&K, Punjab and Sindh sectors, that they can negotiate a cession of hostilities with India on its own terms. The 1965 war gave confidence to the Indian military strategists that it can counter Pakistans military strategies to defend its Eastern wing.
So in effect, what Pakistan started in 1965, India ended in 1971, with a complete and emphatic victory.

 

[SQ8]

That's a generic truth, you know, which holds for all losing sides in all the wars ever seen in human history.

It also happens to be a pretty convenient cover.

Also instills confidence in ones abilities.
After all.. sobbing about being a loser isnt healthy is it?