If an F16 Can Take Out an F35 WVR---Then a JF 17 Can as Well

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

Operation Linebacker II, was a political achievement rather than military achievement. Battles are fought to achieve tactical goals mostly political ones not to end wars.The situation on the ground was a lost cause for the Americans. Majority of South Vietnam was overrun with thousands of NVA facing little or no resistance from the allies. Only 24,000 US troops stood in their way, troop levels were declining day by day. Operation Linebacker II was a marvelous operation but merely a pinch to the Vietnamese war effort. Operation Linebacker II is comparable to the Nazi Me 262: deadly and destructive, but too late in the war.

“Move only when you see an advantage and there is something to gain. Only fight if a position is critical” Following Operation Linebacker, battle lines were hardly interrupted. The main purpose of the bombing wasn’t to change the tide of war, but rather bring Hanoi back to the bargaining table, which followed Nixon’s mantra of “Peace with Honor.” The operation was a last ditch effort to secure a withdrawal with humility. The Paris Peace Accords were a blessing for the Vietnamese, however the Vietnamese delegations did not utilize their military position in the accords. “They were holding onto the feet of the American delegation----to please forgive their arrogance for Gods sake and please forgive their ignorance” contrary to popular belief, it was the Americans who begged the Vietnamese to negotiate and neutralize the war. Americans knew that a military victory was in possible in Vietnam as a result politically was the only option. The Peace accords were a gift to the North Vietnamese, under the agreement US troops had sixty days to withdraw all of their forces and dismantle all US bases. While the North Vietnamese only had to release all allied POW's. The Paris Peace Accords were a win win for Vietnam and paved the road to Saigon.

The Gulf War was over before it began. A second lieutenant out of PMA can plan and execute a war more effectively than Saddam and his monkey generals. The Iraqi army under Saddam was the rich kid who had no idea how to use his toys. Leading up to the war, Saddam pictured a Vietnam style fight of attrition, which was used during the Iran-Iraq war. As a result, he dug his troops in the middle of the desert with no air support and no artillery. The Americans learning from Vietnam attacked Saddam’s isolated units with a Blitzkrieg inspired attack. Without air cover, Saddam's forces were sitting ducks for allied jets. As a result of Saddam’s lack of military expertise, within a month of the air war 75% of his army and air force were wiped out because of his stupidity. The air campaign devastated entire Iraqi brigades deployed in the open desert in combat formation. The Iraqi Army lacked the fundamental understandings of fighting in the desert. During the Battle of 73 Easting, entire Iraqi armored corps traveled in a straight line through the desert, making the job of coalition fighter pilots hell of a lot easier. Without proper logistics and a chain of command, the Iraqi army was disorganized throughout the desert. Many units simply waved the white flag when Abram tanks were spotted. Without understanding the terrain’s weakness and strengths an army is has lost the battle before a shot has been fired.

Here is the time for Junaid Jamshed and the Vital Signs- "Dil Dil Pakistan"

Aisi zameen aur aasmaan
in ke siwa jaana kahaan
barhti rahe yeh roshni
chalta rahe yeh kaarwaan

Dil Dil Pakistan
Jaan Jaan Pakistan

Dil dil se milte hain to pyar ka chehra banta hai
chehra banta hai
phool ek larri mein proey to phir sehra banta hai
chehra banta hai

Dil Dil Pakistan
Jaan Jaan Pakistan

Hi,

Good try-----it is all 'Passe' by now. You still engrossed in victory and loss concept---good luck with that.

Nobody believes this story any more---but only from 3rd world countries---and then still a small obscure minority----.

The 1st Gulf war cleared the uppity sinuses of every nation that had any confusion.

Any way---it is about time you introduce yourself----this ' minor ' chicken doodle won't work.
You can challenge my age or status on the board---tell us something about yourself----so we can also tear you apart if we need to and then see where you stand.

 

[N/A]

Hi,

Good try-----it is all 'Passe' by now. You still engrossed in victory and loss concept---good luck with that.

Nobody believes this story any more---but only from 3rd world countries---and then still a small obscure minority----.

The 1st Gulf war cleared the uppity sinuses of every nation that had any confusion.

Any way---it is about time you introduce yourself----this ' minor ' chicken doodle won't work.
You can challenge my age or status on the board---tell us something about yourself----so we can also tear you apart if we need to and then see where you stand.

Hi,

Well, its truly a shame to see our positive and interesting conversation turn into one fueled by words of war and hate. During our short and riveting conversation, i don't recall a moment where I disrespected or challenged your status on PDF, i merely challenged your testaments with statements of my own. As for tearing me apart, i would welcomed that as I fear no one other than Allah(swt). It would be more than a honor to introduce myself:

I'm 17 years old raised in the quiet state of Connecticut. Throughout the years l represented my town and school in basketball and baseball. I thank Allah(swt) for gifting me a brain and vast knowledge. At my high school I have been a officer(treasurer) for the past three years. My GPA reflects a 93%, inshallah it shall rise. My love of warfare and history has landed me the number one position in Honors Russian history, Honors US history, and Honors Modern World history classes throughout the school. This year i will try complete the package and land the number one spot in AP European history. This past school year I was blessed enough to be selected to attend the National Youth Leadership Seminar in Washington, DC. I pray Allah(swt) keeps the flame of success lit for me. I would call myself a extreme Pakistan nationalist and I hope the future is bright for all Pakistanis

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

Well, its truly a shame to see our positive and interesting conversation turn into one fueled by words of war and hate. During our short and riveting conversation, i don't recall a moment where I disrespected or challenged your status on PDF, i merely challenged your testaments with statements of my own. As for tearing me apart, i would welcomed that as I fear no one other than Allah(swt). It would be more than a honor to introduce myself:

I'm 17 years old raised in the quiet state of Connecticut. Throughout the years l represented my town and school in basketball and baseball. I thank Allah(swt) for gifting me a brain and vast knowledge. At my high school I have been a officer(treasurer) for the past three years. My GPA reflects a 93%, inshallah it shall rise. My love of warfare and history has landed me the number one position in Honors Russian history, Honors US history, and Honors Modern World history classes throughout the school. This year i will try complete the package and land the number one spot in AP European history. This past school year I was blessed enough to be selected to attend the National Youth Leadership Seminar in Washington, DC. I pray Allah(swt) keeps the flame of success lit for me. I would call myself a extreme Pakistan nationalist and I hope the future is bright for all Pakistanis

Sir,

" Hi,
It is truly a pity and shame to see a well respect member like yourself downplay the victorious strategies employed
by the Vietnamese and fall pray to the American excuse of "Not trying."

The above is your post isn't it---.

Please have this argument about the victory of Vietnam in your debating society class in your high school---.

And live to honor the country where you live and get your education from----. Thank you.

And to the other readers---my apologies----.

 

[N/A]

Sir,

" Hi,
It is truly a pity and shame to see a well respect member like yourself downplay the victorious strategies employed
by the Vietnamese and fall pray to the American excuse of "Not trying."

The above is your post isn't it---.

Please have this argument about the victory of Vietnam in your debating society class in your high school---.

And live to honor the country where you live and get your education from----. Thank you.

And to the other readers---my apologies----.

AoA,

Last time I checked my post called you a well respect member of PDF. I merely said that its a shame that you are down playing an event. With all due respect there seems no be a double standard notion going in our conversation. My quality of a human being are judged when i merely said it was a "shame to see a well respect member like yourself downplay the victorious strategies employed by the Vietnamese." My comments did not threaten or abuse you in anyway, but your comment of "tell us something about yourself----so we can also tear you apart if we need to and then see where you stand" is a direct threat and can be seen as an act of cyberbulling, which I may remind you is a federal offense. Its more ironic than a double standard to be frank.

As for discussing Vietnam with my school mates, that just may simply be the joke of the century. I go to an American high school and i can certainly tell you topics like Vietnam, war of attrition, and mathematics are the last things that interest a high school student. With confidence I can say an average high student thinks about three thing constantly: girls/sex, getting high and partying. Talking about in-depth topics are far from the question.

Once again you portray me as American hating radicalized extremist with comments such as, 'And live to honor the country where you live and get your education from----. Thank you," which is far from the truth. My education has thought me to support right whenever and wherever. If Pakistan was wrong i would support the opposition, but does that mean I hate Pakistan... of course not. Your comments about Vietnam were wrong and my ego tells me to defend the right side. It just so happened to be America on the other side, and you portrayed that as a extremist vs America case. in reality it was a right vs wrong case. Yet again we see another double standard here. When I supported Vietnam, you questioned my loyalty to America and framed me as extremist, but did i question your loyalty to America when you made comments such as: "It is easy to bash the U S---I do it quite often" see i didn't right. I would love to have a discussion with you or another member of this forum, I have no conflicts with you sir or anyone else here.

 

[melb4aust]

Its so interesting but not weird to see 2 people having different perspectives. We all see things from our own minds. I was reading somewhere that, there is something called 'The Mental Crusher’, which sits outside the entrance to our belief system, and only allows information or ‘evidence’ which fits with our own belief system to enter. Here is a perfect example of the very term.

So when I see you 2 both having such a vast knowledge but only beating drums on your own personal tunes, I feel reasonably low and perhaps so do few other members.

It would be rather better, if the conversation sticks to actual debate (US Vs Vietnam) instead (Mastan vs SquadronLeader).

 

[MastanKhan]

Its so interesting but not weird to see 2 people having different perspectives. We all see things from our own minds. I was reading somewhere that, there is something called 'The Mental Crusher’, which sits outside the entrance to our belief system, and only allows information or ‘evidence’ which fits with our own belief system to enter. Here is a perfect example of the very term.

So when I see you 2 both having such a vast knowledge but only beating drums on your own personal tunes, I feel reasonably low and perhaps so do few other members.

It would be rather better, if the conversation sticks to actual debate (US Vs Vietnam) instead (Mastan vs SquadronLeader).

Hi,

My apologies---I did not know I was talking to a 17 years old. I should have known better.

 

[N/A]

Hi,

My apologies---I did not know I was talking to a 17 years old. I should have known better.

My apologies, I should have not have act in such a manner, but I still feel I didn't disrespect you. As far as sticking to the topic, all my posts were related to Vietnam and did not bash other members. Forthmore, just because i am young doesn't give you the right to judge my knowlegde

 

[MastanKhan]

My apologies, I should have not have act in such a manner, but I still feel I didn't disrespect you. As far as sticking to the topic, all my posts were related to Vietnam and did not bash other members. Forthmore, just because i am young doesn't give you the fight to judge my knowlegde

Son,

You have no knowledge at this time----you may believe that you have---but you got nothing---.

 

[N/A]

Son,

You have no knowledge at this time----you may believe that you have---but you got nothing---.

I respect your belief and understand your comment, but i dislike to be underrated. With all due respect, What gives you the right to say someone has knowledge or not

 

[MastanKhan]

I respect your belief and understand your comment, but i dislike to be underrated.

Son,

Kid you do not know diddley about life at 17 years of age about Vietnam---your breath still smells of mama's milk.

You have to be somebody to be rated---earn your wings first.

 

[N/A]

Son,

Kid you do not know diddley about life at 17 years of age about Vietnam---your breath still smells of mama's milk.

You have to be somebody to be rated---earn your wings first.

Please have chivalry and keep my mom out of this, please behave like a gentleman. Tell me didn't you became a elite member by replying to other PDF members. I am merely following in your footsteps, nothing wrong here.

 

[N/A]

Son,

You have to bring something to the table to start some place. You cannot follow in my foot steps----you need to find your own way around----. I was 48 when I started here---you are 17---and you just got your first rejection of your thesis on Vietnam---and that is a terrible feeling----.

You DO NOT HAVE THE LEARNING ABILITY at this time---because you believe that you know everything. The Willie Nelson song that I posted for you---was your moment to stop and think and understand and dig in to see what it meant----and you in turn post a stupid response about a Pakistani song that had no meaning to the conversation.

You need to dig in deep into those lyrics why the federales say what they said to Pancho-----what did it mean in the real sense----. Once you learn and understand what it meant---maybe you will begin to understand the Vietnam war---. Right now---you know diddley about Vietnam war---.

As I said earlier, I stand by the truth and I will admit I failed to recognize the hidden meaning behind Wilie Nelson' song. As for my Vietnam theisis, no other member called it a failure besides yourself. Throughout the conversation you kept changing the topic in your favor. For example the topic started off as a debate between will vs technology. Then slowly the topic changed from will vs technology to Vietnam to the Gulf war. Furthermore, the topic changed from history to challenging my quality of a human, and my knowledge, which was seen from a elite member vs a noob 17 year old point of view. If we are willing to digest history and events, I am all for it. I propose another senior member look at our discussion and say where he stands, everything will be crystal clear. I am not someone who runs away when someone says negative comments about me or if the odds are not in my favor.

 

[DrWatson775]

Son,

Kid you do not know diddley about life at 17 years of age about Vietnam---your breath still smells of mama's milk.

You have to be somebody to be rated---earn your wings first.

Pathetic.

 

[punit]

Sir,

I understand your answer ---and I don't mean to be disrespectful. You are going to write what you know of and I am going to share what I experience and learnt.

It is easy to bash the U S---I do it quite often---its screw up are royal----but so what---where is the big deal in it!

Japan and korea may decide whatever they want to---I am not getting into that discussion.

We are talking about America---60000 dead---people dogding the draft or whatever---over 150k wounded----it was just like a seasonal flood in the river Indus---.

So---4 million dead Vietnamese----their nation destroyed---their lands destroyed---agent orange still wreaking havoc----

Life in the mainland U S went on like there was no tomorrow---. So what if the American troops have to be pulled out of Vietnam----.

As I mentioned---it took Operation Linebacker 2----just 24 hours for the north Vietnamese to start begging to stop the strikes. What did the U S do------took 7 days-----brought the north Vietnamese to a pulp-----complete and total destruction of their capital---that was jus a whiff of the might of the U S military---.

Why the U S politicians did what they did in Vietnam---to tie the hands of their armed forces---only they know better.

Or why they refused armor ( tanks ) to the American troops being deployed in Somalia---knowing very well that they will be vulnerable to the enemy firepower.

Okay--agreed the the U S failed in Vietnam----but then where is communism in Vietnam---they are ready to align with the U S again----.

Truman had a doctrine----but after he left---it changed with changing times---the threats that were visible---just dissipated into thin air---.

Off course all wars when started have a purpose---but where they end up is a different story. Like Afghanistan---like Iraq---like Libya----like Syria----they all had a purpose----.

In Afghanistan it disappeared after the first 30 days---in Iraq---it disappeared in the first year----in Libya---it never started---in Syria----it just lasted for a few days and backfired----.

Citizens may have questioned and wanted accountability---but then what happened---it all fizzled out----.

As for the dead bodies of soldiers coming in----there is a solution to that as well----you don't allow it to be photographed and the media won't show the caskets coming in---.

The world always had conflicts---with a much higher number of casualties in the 19 century and before----.

with all due respect sir! will USA do any thing similar in north Korea !

 

[MastanKhan]

with all due respect sir! will USA do any thing similar in north Korea !

No---.