If an F16 Can Take Out an F35 WVR---Then a JF 17 Can as Well

[Immanuel]

Non sense and lane excuses.
Also I am not interested in taking part in never ending discussions on topics which you tried to drag in...... admit the facts........

The 'facts' are Pak has raised the white flag every time, they have lost every war they have fought. They have never been able to sustain their misadventures. Even your own ACMs, Generals and political leadership admits to it. PAF has never really dominated any war, sure they have had initial success due to the advantage of surprise that comes along of being the aggressor but the tri-services in India together have always given a humiliating reply every time so much so that Pak really has to go begging at the UN to stop 'big bad' India from hurting you more.

Also how delusional are you, actually asking an Indian to admit defeat while all along history its' your nation that has been humiliated?

 

[Tipu7]

The 'facts' are Pak has raised the white flag every time, they have lost every war they have fought. They have never been able to sustain their misadventures. Even your own ACMs, Generals and political leadership admits to it. PAF has never really dominated any war, sure they have had initial success due to the advantage of surprise that comes along of being the aggressor but the tri-services in India together have always given a humiliating reply every time so much so that Pak really has to go begging at the UN to stop 'big bad' India from hurting you more.

Also how delusional are you, actually asking an Indian to admit defeat while all along history its' your nation that has been humiliated?

I have studied all such issues from all three type of sources. And it is shameless how Indians are brain washed by their media and leadership....... you are not different...... same stuff

 

[sathya]

I have studied all such issues from all three type of sources. And it is shameless how Indians are brain washed by their media and leadership....... you are not different...... same stuff

Feelings mutual ,let's leave it at that.

 

[MastanKhan]

With due respect sir velocity of bullet is 2350-2550fps,but still it has same effect as you mention but Practically it has some disadvantages that's why not even special forces use it.
Regarding Topic i agree with you,we need heavy bomber we need to keep our skills and Tech both equal.

Hi,

That is what the speed is for the commercial .17 bullet now---reduced velocity---when the rifle came out first---that is what the velocity was for that bullet as tested---4150 fps.

One of the very well known A--------- poster on another defense forum mentioned it one day---referring some of his colleagues who actually saw the shot---and then he deleted his post.


have a read

Gun Digest 2012 - Dan Shideler - Google Books

 

[illusion8]

Hi,

But then you may not know if it is an illusion or is it reality.

I don't think I will go up against this "imagination" or "reality" any day soon...but the boys who might fully know what to do with it..and they don't seem bothered..

The lockheed martin guys must be real stupid to let something that they spent billions on and spent years on perfecting to be taken out by something that they themselves invented 40 years ago...or to let it be assumingly beaten by something that was derived by copying and cyberspying their 40 year old product.

 

[Immanuel]

I have studied all such issues from all three type of sources. And it is shameless how Indians are brain washed by their media and leadership....... you are not different...... same stuff

Its ok, we know just how clean your madrassa educated mind is

 

[Tipu7]

Its ok, we know just how clean your madrassa educated mind is

Not a student of madrasa......

Feelings mutual ,let's leave it at that.

Never mind

 

[MastanKhan]

I am agree with you 100% but If soldier don have will to fight, then arsenal will not do a lot rite? Both armament n courage are necessary to win a war.America have a lot but can not win a war in Afghanistan & Iraq.rite?Why?

Hi,

Sir---you looking for victory or defeat----Afghanistan decimated---over a million dead---Iraq decimated over a million and a half dead---. Americans don't go to wars to win now----they just go in and destroy the country and then make it pay for it as well---.

 

[N/A]

Sir,

I understand your answer ---and I don't mean to be disrespectful. You are going to write what you know of and I am going to share what I experience and learnt.

It is easy to bash the U S---I do it quite often---its screw up are royal----but so what---where is the big deal in it!

Japan and korea may decide whatever they want to---I am not getting into that discussion.

We are talking about America---60000 dead---people dogding the draft or whatever---over 150k wounded----it was just like a seasonal flood in the river Indus---.

So---4 million dead Vietnamese----their nation destroyed---their lands destroyed---agent orange still wreaking havoc----

Life in the mainland U S went on like there was no tomorrow---. So what if the American troops have to be pulled out of Vietnam----.

As I mentioned---it took Operation Linebacker 2----just 24 hours for the north Vietnamese to start begging to stop the strikes. What did the U S do------took 7 days-----brought the north Vietnamese to a pulp-----complete and total destruction of their capital---that was jus a whiff of the might of the U S military---.

Why the U S politicians did what they did in Vietnam---to tie the hands of their armed forces---only they know better.

Or why they refused armor ( tanks ) to the American troops being deployed in Somalia---knowing very well that they will be vulnerable to the enemy firepower.

Okay--agreed the the U S failed in Vietnam----but then where is communism in Vietnam---they are ready to align with the U S again----.

Truman had a doctrine----but after he left---it changed with changing times---the threats that were visible---just dissipated into thin air---.

Off course all wars when started have a purpose---but where they end up is a different story. Like Afghanistan---like Iraq---like Libya----like Syria----they all had a purpose----.

In Afghanistan it disappeared after the first 30 days---in Iraq---it disappeared in the first year----in Libya---it never started---in Syria----it just lasted for a few days and backfired----.

Citizens may have questioned and wanted accountability---but then what happened---it all fizzled out----.

As for the dead bodies of soldiers coming in----there is a solution to that as well----you don't allow it to be photographed and the media won't show the caskets coming in---.

The world always had conflicts---with a much higher number of casualties in the 19 century and before----.

Hi,

It is truly a pity and shame to see a well respect member like yourself downplay the victorious strategies employed by the Vietnamese and fall pray to the American excuse of "Not trying."

American Generals like William Westmoreland in Vietnam were fighting Korean and World War Two style fights, which proved utterly useless in Vietnam as there were no clear objectives or fixed units to be bombed. Americans saw Vietnam as chess board: Kill as many Vietcong as possible and rely on strength. Vietnamese saw Vietnam as a Go board (Chinese board game): conquer land with minimal soldiers. The American strategy led to an attrition based warfare which the Vietnamese counter effectively, Sun Tzo once said, " It is more important to out think your enemy than outfight him." In operation such as Operation Linebacker 2 and Rolling Thunder, Vietnamese predicted every moment of the Americans well in advance. Americans prepared a land strip with artillery and aerial bombardment followed by the infantry. Vietnamese General Vo Nguyen Giap, knew that if his troops survived the bombardment(tunnels), then his forces would know the place of attack and time of attack resulting in perfect recipe for an ambush. General Giap wisely eliminated American air support by " Grabbing the enemy by the belt." During encounters, Vietnamese only attacked when American forces were meters away. As a result, air support can not engage without friendly fire.Without air support American forces were sitting ducks. After the war, the Pentagon relieved 80% of the time the enemy chose the time and place of battle, directly signaling a failure of American bombardment to dislodge the enemy and reinforcing the notion of "Do not advance relying on sheer military power." The Vietnamese proved that if you "know your enemy and yourself in 100 battles you will never be in peril." Lastly, Vietnamese Generals did not try to defeat the Americans in Vietnam, but rather in America. Early on in the war 80% of Americans supported the conflict and as a result half a million troops were stationed in Vietnam. General Giap knew the Vietnamese Army could not attack the Americans head on as a result he attacked what was the weakest: the American public. As death tolls in Vietnam climbed, public support for the war plummeted. As you mentioned above "60000 dead---people dodging the draft or whatever---over 150k wounded----it was just like a seasonal flood in the river Indus," these numbers would be a seasonal flood for Soviets but for Americans theses numbers were a hurricane. Without the will of the people no war can be fought, with the will of the people even a desperate war can be won. To succeeded in war five basic elements need to be used to the uttermost, "Weather, terrain, military doctrine, leadership, and moral influence." The Vietnamese played those five elements to the sweetest tone, while the Americans relied on military might alone.

The Vietnam war is a marvelous war to look into the tactics and strategies used by each side. It is a pity to downplay these strategies and credit success to the enemy for not trying rather then tactics.

@WebMaster @Horus @WAJsal @Gufi @Spring Onion @Shamain @Mr.Meap @syedali73 @Atanz@jamahir @balixd @TankMan @waz @HRK @Leader @Jazzbot @Imran Khan @SpArK @hinduguy @Nihonjin1051 @Slav Defence @Indus Falcon @Armstrong @ACE OF THE AIR @Windjammer

 

[MMG]

F-35 will have better chances of early detection... superior firepower...and ability to hightail and escape but unless it has really bad pilot I don't think it can be defeated by Jf-17 or f-16.

Wow! really great anylysis. Kudos Bro

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

It is truly a pity and shame to see a well respect member like yourself downplay the victorious strategies employed by the Vietnamese and fall pray to the American excuse of "Not trying."



The Vietnam war is a marvelous war to look into the tactics and strategies used by each side. It is a pity to downplay these strategies and credit success to the enemy for not trying rather then tactics.
[/USER]

Hi,

I really appreciate your candor----. Incidently---I learnt about the capabilities of the americans even when the Pakistani general staff were clueless to what they were---and to top it of---even the Chinese general staff were more clueless to what the americans could do----and a layman like me was wondering---what the fcuk are these people thinking.

Just because the americans let you----does not mean that you have it.

You know of operation linebacker 2----that was just the whiff of American might----you know what happened with the Vietnamese delegation after the first 24 hours in Paris-----they were holding onto the feet of the American delegation----to please forgive their arrogance for Gods sake and please forgive their ignorance of not understanding the might of the American military----the Vietnamese begged them and told them that what they had believed that they were---they just realized that they were nothing close to what they thought---so please forgive them and stop the bombing of Hanoi---the americans let them have it for 7 days---just to make sure---death and destruction of Hanoi was final.

The myth of the Vietcong and Vietnam forces got buried in the rubble of Hanoi after the Linebacker 2

Ironically---Saddam thought the same of the americans----he forgot the Linebacker 2 and remembered the rest of the war----his military was decimated in the first 24 hours---.

Pakistani General Mirza Aslam thought the same as well and warned the americans to be vary of the Iraqis----and the Chinese thought that they were going to have the last laugh on the expense of americans----the shockwaves that went thru Beijing rattled the whole of china and they have still not settled their shattered nerves after the first 4 days of the first Iraq war---even after almost quarter of a century later------AND YOU ARE SAYING WHAT?????????

But on the other hand----Gen Musharraf----how bad the people may talk about him----but he was smart and knowledgeable about the capabilities of the americans---he knew what the americans would do to the country.

So---here is the time for Willie Nelson and Merle Haggard-----" Pancho "

Pancho was a bandit boy
His horse was fast as polished steel
He wore his gun outside his pants
For all the honest world to feel

Pancho met his match, you know
On the deserts down in Mexico
Nobody heard his dyin' word
Oh but that's the way it goes

All the Federales, they say
They could have had him any day
They only let him slip away
Out of kindness I suppose

F-35 will have better chances of early detection... superior firepower...and ability to hightail and escape but unless it has really bad pilot I don't think it can be defeated by Jf-17 or f-16.

Wow! really great anylysis. Kudos Bro

Hi,

There is always uncertainty in war---things happen that you don't expect----there are so many reasons for it and then there are no reasons why they happen as they do---.

Even though----it is not meant to---a merge will occur----it is supposed to happen regardless of what anyone says anything about it---so then even a MIG 21 BIS could have a victory dance.

 

[melb4aust]

Hi,

Sir---you looking for victory or defeat----Afghanistan decimated---over a million dead---Iraq decimated over a million and a half dead---. Americans don't go to wars to win now----they just go in and destroy the country and then make it pay for it as well---.

"Americans don't go to wars to win now". True....

But what's the biggest objective behind?

Aside from countless causalities of innocent civilians, military personnel of course, it means a GDP boost for the biggest exporter of weapons on earth, the United States, and even more profits for the US military-industrial complex. Profits which mean the shareholders of America's arms manufacturers get even richer.

Fueling wars in Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Africa and the whole middle east is just as what US military industrial complex wanted.

By playing terrorism card, the US has developed an approach to warfare designs while boosting arms sales advances is also a part of their hands-on & hands-off approach, giving allies the equipment and training to fight terrorism on their own as well as by finding excuses to jump in looking for weapons of mass destruction in oil riched countries. Let's not also forget the fact that US approach may spawn more terrorists than it kills by generating anti-US sentiment. But it might be the legacy of the 2008 economic crisis, as much as the 2003 Iraq disaster that drives the White House's arms sales.

We are talking about a money making spree, which is not limited to billions but trillions of dollars of arms supply to not only US defense forces but terrorism and war fueled countries across the globe.

 

[MastanKhan]

"Americans don't go to wars to win now". True....

But what's the biggest objective behind?

Aside from countless causalities of innocent civilians, military personnel of course, it means a GDP boost for the biggest exporter of weapons on earth, the United States, and even more profits for the US military-industrial complex. Profits which mean the shareholders of America's arms manufacturers get even richer.

Fueling wars in Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Africa and the whole middle east is just as what US military industrial complex wanted.

By playing terrorism card, the US has developed an approach to warfare designs while boosting arms sales advances is also a part of their hands-on & hands-off approach, giving allies the equipment and training to fight terrorism on their own as well as by finding excuses to jump in looking for weapons of mass destruction in oil riched countries. Let's not also forget the fact that US approach may spawn more terrorists than it kills by generating anti-US sentiment. But it might be the legacy of the 2008 economic crisis, as much as the 2003 Iraq disaster that drives the White House's arms sales.

We are talking about a money making spree, which is not limited to billions but trillions of dollars of arms supply to not only US defense forces but terrorism and war fueled countries across the globe.

Hi,

So true---people just don't understand why the U S fights wars the way they do. I firmly believe that the defense industry was behind U S involvemet---it pushed the interesting parties in the right direction----and then as it lingered on----newer and bigger defense contracts came along----.

You make a fighter without a machine gun---and now you have investment for a range of air to air missiles----. So---for as long as the war keeps going on---the defense dept is happy---the congressmen and senators are happy because their constituents have jobs making guns and tanks and aircrafts and missiles and ships and what not.

The thing is---what is America going to do when it wins----nothing---it gets a liability----and it is not trained to handle liabilities---like Iraq---like afghanistan.

 

[melb4aust]

The thing is---what is America going to do when it wins----nothing---it gets a liability----and it is not trained to handle liabilities---like Iraq---like Afghanistan.

Well they are learning that too, by sharing those liabilities among their so called allies.

 

[N/A]

Hi,

I really appreciate your candor----. Incidently---I learnt about the capabilities of the americans even when the Pakistani general staff were clueless to what they were---and to top it of---even the Chinese general staff were more clueless to what the americans could do----and a layman like me was wondering---what the fcuk are these people thinking.

Just because the americans let you----does not mean that you have it.

You know of operation linebacker 2----that was just the whiff of American might----you know what happened with the Vietnamese delegation after the first 24 hours in Paris-----they were holding onto the feet of the American delegation----to please forgive their arrogance for Gods sake and please forgive their ignorance of not understanding the might of the American military----the Vietnamese begged them and told them that what they had believed that they were---they just realized that they were nothing close to what they thought---so please forgive them and stop the bombing of Hanoi---the americans let them have it for 7 days---just to make sure---death and destruction of Hanoi was final.

The myth of the Vietcong and Vietnam forces got buried in the rubble of Hanoi after the Linebacker 2

Ironically---Saddam thought the same of the americans----he forgot the Linebacker 2 and remembered the rest of the war----his military was decimated in the first 24 hours---.

Pakistani General Mirza Aslam thought the same as well and warned the americans to be vary of the Iraqis----and the Chinese thought that they were going to have the last laugh on the expense of americans----the shockwaves that went thru Beijing rattled the whole of china and they have still not settled their shattered nerves after the first 4 days of the first Iraq war---even after almost quarter of a century later------AND YOU ARE SAYING WHAT?????????

But on the other hand----Gen Musharraf----how bad the people may talk about him----but he was smart and knowledgeable about the capabilities of the americans---he knew what the americans would do to the country.

So---here is the time for Willie Nelson and Merle Haggard-----" Pancho "

Pancho was a bandit boy
His horse was fast as polished steel
He wore his gun outside his pants
For all the honest world to feel

Pancho met his match, you know
On the deserts down in Mexico
Nobody heard his dyin' word
Oh but that's the way it goes

All the Federales, they say
They could have had him any day
They only let him slip away
Out of kindness I suppose



Hi,

There is always uncertainty in war---things happen that you don't expect----there are so many reasons for it and then there are no reasons why they happen as they do---.

Even though----it is not meant to---a merge will occur----it is supposed to happen regardless of what anyone says anything about it---so then even a MIG 21 BIS could have a victory dance.

Hi,

Operation Linebacker II, was a political achievement rather than military achievement. Battles are fought to achieve tactical goals mostly political ones not to end wars.The situation on the ground was a lost cause for the Americans. Majority of South Vietnam was overrun with thousands of NVA facing little or no resistance from the allies. Only 24,000 US troops stood in their way, troop levels were declining day by day. Operation Linebacker II was a marvelous operation but merely a pinch to the Vietnamese war effort. Operation Linebacker II is comparable to the Nazi Me 262: deadly and destructive, but too late in the war.

“Move only when you see an advantage and there is something to gain. Only fight if a position is critical” Following Operation Linebacker, battle lines were hardly interrupted. The main purpose of the bombing wasn’t to change the tide of war, but rather bring Hanoi back to the bargaining table, which followed Nixon’s mantra of “Peace with Honor.” The operation was a last ditch effort to secure a withdrawal with humility. The Paris Peace Accords were a blessing for the Vietnamese, however the Vietnamese delegations did not utilize their military position in the accords. “They were holding onto the feet of the American delegation----to please forgive their arrogance for Gods sake and please forgive their ignorance” contrary to popular belief, it was the Americans who begged the Vietnamese to negotiate and neutralize the war. Americans knew that a military victory was in possible in Vietnam as a result politically was the only option. The Peace accords were a gift to the North Vietnamese, under the agreement US troops had sixty days to withdraw all of their forces and dismantle all US bases. While the North Vietnamese only had to release all allied POW's. The Paris Peace Accords were a win win for Vietnam and paved the road to Saigon.

The Gulf War was over before it began. A second lieutenant out of PMA can plan and execute a war more effectively than Saddam and his monkey generals. The Iraqi army under Saddam was the rich kid who had no idea how to use his toys. Leading up to the war, Saddam pictured a Vietnam style fight of attrition, which was used during the Iran-Iraq war. As a result, he dug his troops in the middle of the desert with no air support and no artillery. The Americans learning from Vietnam attacked Saddam’s isolated units with a Blitzkrieg inspired attack. Without air cover, Saddam's forces were sitting ducks for allied jets. As a result of Saddam’s lack of military expertise, within a month of the air war 75% of his army and air force were wiped out because of his stupidity. The air campaign devastated entire Iraqi brigades deployed in the open desert in combat formation. The Iraqi Army lacked the fundamental understandings of fighting in the desert. During the Battle of 73 Easting, entire Iraqi armored corps traveled in a straight line through the desert, making the job of coalition fighter pilots hell of a lot easier. Without proper logistics and a chain of command, the Iraqi army was disorganized throughout the desert. Many units simply waved the white flag when Abram tanks were spotted. Without understanding the terrain’s weakness and strengths an army is has lost the battle before a shot has been fired.

Here is the time for Junaid Jamshed and the Vital Signs- "Dil Dil Pakistan"

Aisi zameen aur aasmaan
in ke siwa jaana kahaan
barhti rahe yeh roshni
chalta rahe yeh kaarwaan

Dil Dil Pakistan
Jaan Jaan Pakistan

Dil dil se milte hain to pyar ka chehra banta hai
chehra banta hai
phool ek larri mein proey to phir sehra banta hai
chehra banta hai

Dil Dil Pakistan
Jaan Jaan Pakistan