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IDP camps being restricted to the NWFP?

All-Green

Actually Hellfire you are not a Pakistani so do not mind when i say you cannot really comment with full background here.

The comments were in conjunction with the posts and views expressed and analysis of the same. Really has nothing to do with a need for knowledge of Pakistani Demography and history.

Its the logical extension of studying origination of insurgency movements world over. As such, the parameters are roughly the same, as also is the evolution, only certain variables may differ in import or implications.

And being an Indian, and a typical one at that, I guess my response would have been, "you are going to get your back sides kicked all the more if you adopt this. And we will ensure it happens as such". A gleeful moment truly!!!!:cheers:

But since this forum is not about jingoism IMO, nor about rhetoric, I think safely I can comment on the comments posted and any absurdity/falsification can be corrected by other members.:agree:


There is no need to establish IDP camps far away from SWAT.
It is downright stupid to even suggest at this point in time and will not only be logistically a bad desicion but also need much more scrutiy and checks because instead of SWATIs reaching such a far off camp the chances of others occuppying and leeching onto the fundings are much more real and will have a much higher percentage!
If you factor in the immense heat in Punjab it will be a torture...this is the worst weather of the year in Punjab and many people here also die of heatstrokes!


Facilitation of the camps should be done in secure regions locally I agree. However, such an attitude as exhibited by GoPu as a public policy statement, is something which is a worrisome prosepect at best.

As such, any displaced citizen of Pakistan, who feels secure outside NWFP and wishes to seek temporary refuge in any other part, can be thoroughly vetted and then placed in suitable camps. Irrespective of what you say, or imply, the fact is that it is better to have camps where all can be kept under closed watch and monitored continuously rather than having them roam around in small groups all over Pakistan in case attempts are made to restrict them to NWFP and they have different plans. You shall find merit in this view if you were to look at it from POV of easiness in vigil being kept on such displaced citizens.



For your information do have a look at the history of Pakistan, its Presidents, Prime Ministers, Military Chiefs, Governors and IGs...you will see how stupid this Punjabi dominance claim really is.


I know it. And have said Pakistani Society is progressive in earlier posts elsewhere too and also about the tolerant nature of it (in thread concerning Sikhs and Indian intervention or something).

However, what I know and believe is not going to convince the local perception being held, wrongly or rightly, and that is a seed for insurrection IMO.


On the other hand also see the names of the martyrs in the Swat conflict...you will see many Punjabis here so all this conspiracy theory of Punjab lurking in the shadows and making others suffer is BS of the highest order


Obviously its PA = Pakistani Army and not Punjabi Army, so its pluralistic in representation and they are fighting for Pakistan and not some tract of land. So the above point was understood without saying. However, its the attitude of GoPu that I have denounced. Not PA. They are doing their bit in an exemplary manner.

Thanks
 
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lets stop arguing... indian members u should be careful while postin in such threads. will be great if u could not add to the flames. use afghanistan for that purpose and not this forum. its my humble request

regardin the issue all of us must condemn this statement comin from our politicians. i dont care if its politically correct or technically correct but its morally wrong. its against the spirit of Pakistan and its against the spirit of One Nation
 
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All-Green

Actually Hellfire you are not a Pakistani so do not mind when i say you cannot really comment with full background here.

The comments were in conjunction with the posts and views expressed and analysis of the same. Really has nothing to do with a need for knowledge of Pakistani Demography and history.

Its the logical extension of studying origination of insurgency movements world over. As such, the parameters are roughly the same, as also is the evolution, only certain variables may differ in import or implications.

And being an Indian, and a typical one at that, I guess my response would have been, "you are going to get your back sides kicked all the more if you adopt this. And we will ensure it happens as such". A gleeful moment truly!!!!:cheers:

But since this forum is not about jingoism IMO, nor about rhetoric, I think safely I can comment on the comments posted and any absurdity/falsification can be corrected by other members.:agree:


There is no need to establish IDP camps far away from SWAT.
It is downright stupid to even suggest at this point in time and will not only be logistically a bad desicion but also need much more scrutiy and checks because instead of SWATIs reaching such a far off camp the chances of others occuppying and leeching onto the fundings are much more real and will have a much higher percentage!
If you factor in the immense heat in Punjab it will be a torture...this is the worst weather of the year in Punjab and many people here also die of heatstrokes!


Facilitation of the camps should be done in secure regions locally I agree. However, such an attitude as exhibited by GoPu as a public policy statement, is something which is a worrisome prosepect at best.

As such, any displaced citizen of Pakistan, who feels secure outside NWFP and wishes to seek temporary refuge in any other part, can be thoroughly vetted and then placed in suitable camps. Irrespective of what you say, or imply, the fact is that it is better to have camps where all can be kept under closed watch and monitored continuously rather than having them roam around in small groups all over Pakistan in case attempts are made to restrict them to NWFP and they have different plans. You shall find merit in this view if you were to look at it from POV of easiness in vigil being kept on such displaced citizens.



For your information do have a look at the history of Pakistan, its Presidents, Prime Ministers, Military Chiefs, Governors and IGs...you will see how stupid this Punjabi dominance claim really is.


I know it. And have said Pakistani Society is progressive in earlier posts elsewhere too and also about the tolerant nature of it (in thread concerning Sikhs and Indian intervention or something).

However, what I know and believe is not going to convince the local perception being held, wrongly or rightly, and that is a seed for insurrection IMO.


On the other hand also see the names of the martyrs in the Swat conflict...you will see many Punjabis here so all this conspiracy theory of Punjab lurking in the shadows and making others suffer is BS of the highest order


Obviously its PA = Pakistani Army and not Punjabi Army, so its pluralistic in representation and they are fighting for Pakistan and not some tract of land. So the above point was understood without saying. However, its the attitude of GoPu that I have denounced. Not PA. They are doing their bit in an exemplary manner.

Thanks

Glad to see we both agree on the absurdness of conspiracy theories concerning Punjabi oriented hidden agendas.:crazy:

Regarding the Government of Punjab official statements...it has not opposed IDP camps if requested by NWFP or Government of Pakistan which being the Federal entity has the final say.
That is why i was put off by this un necessary flaming done in the article.

If any IDP wishes to settle in another province he is well within his rights as a Pakistani and i do not see anything suggested otherwise by the Government of Pakistan or Punjab.

Anyhow, let us hope for the best!
:pakistan:
 
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i see alot of lalo parsad yadiv politics going on here. He said one "ARE BABWA JAB APNI BHEINS SE DOODH NAAHI NIKALE TO DSRAY KI BHENSE PE CHOOSA LAGA LO " lol
 
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Glad to see we both agree on the absurdness of conspiracy theories concerning Punjabi oriented hidden agendas.:crazy:

Regarding the Government of Punjab official statements...it has not opposed IDP camps if requested by NWFP or Government of Pakistan which being the Federal entity has the final say.
That is why i was put off by this un necessary flaming done in the article.

If any IDP wishes to settle in another province he is well within his rights as a Pakistani and i do not see anything suggested otherwise by the Government of Pakistan or Punjab.

Anyhow, let us hope for the best!
:pakistan:

totally agree all green:tup:
 
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lets stop arguing... indian members u should be careful while postin in such threads. will be great if u could not add to the flames.

I dont think there has been any attempt on my side to flame AJ


however I see lot of discomfitted members due to my posting here....... is it so that this is exclusively demographically determined?
 
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I dont think there has been any attempt on my side to flame AJ

however I see lot of discomfitted members due to my posting here....... is it so that this is exclusively demographically determined?

I see it differently - you took one rather vague 'unofficial comment' by a member of the GoPu and used it in a diatribe against Punjab and Punjabis:

"And here lies the root to all your present and future intra-state conflicts. The same feeling of being ignored and dominated by Punjab and Sindh is harboured by Baluchis & FATA and this single act hjas served to highlight this point. And further underscored the fact that people of FATA and Baluchistan will be "looked down" upon."

That was very much intended to inflame and incite members by bashing Punjab.

Quite frankly, discourse on Pakistani inter-ethnic relations need to be left to Pakistanis. Ethnic relations are a very touchy subject and Indians cannot participate in this because even if you do not intend to meddle and incite, you bring a lot of historical baggage (where you have done exactly that) with you in terms of your meddling in East Pakistan to inflame ethnic tensions, in Sindh, Baluchistan, and Nehru's egging of Afghanistan in supporting separatism in the NWFP.

Even today, on many Western and Indian forums and commentaries in the media, bashing Punjab, calling the Pakistani Army a 'Pakjabi Army' or Pakistan as 'Punjabistan', betrays a mindset of hatred and desire to incite ethnic hatred amongst Pakistanis.

So it is really best if Indians stay out of this discourse, since your intentions will always be under a cloud, which means you cannot be credible interlocutors.

Comment on technical issues if they arise all you want though. In this particular case for example, comments on whether the logistics associated with moving IDP's to camps much farther away from the NWFP makes sense, and is an efficient means of addressing their needs, etc. are issues that you guys can address.

Thanks.
 
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suggests those hill people and you Punjabi flatlanders ummm...,

...don't like each other much. No no. Not one bit.:agree: Sorta visceral. Real fascinating discussion that suggests maybe there's a problem with the hill tribes in Pakistan and the Punjabi plains too.

You've obviously missed the exchanges here in which Pakistani Pashtun have trashed the Afghans (Pasthun or non-Pashtun), for their animosity towards Pakistan.

The issue is not one of 'the hill tribes having problems with the people of the plains', as you so quaintly put it, but of Pakistanis having problems with the Afghans, because the Afghans refuse to accept the fact that the Pashtun of the NWFP and FATA overwhelmingly chose to join Pakistan through referendum and jirga in 1947.
 
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Sindh bans entry of IDPs

KARACHI:The Sindh government has banned the entry of internally displaced persons (IDPs) into the province asking them to remain within their province.

“ We have already been doping much for the displaced persons. They are our brothers and sisters, and we will continue to help them at this testing time. But Sindh is already overburdened as far as resources and population are concerned”, Shazia Marri, the Sindh information minister told newsmen on Friday.

Some 3000 IDPs were prevented by the law enforcing agencies from entering Sindh on Friday morning at Kashmor border asking them to “ go back to their province”.

The IDPs were lying stranded under open skies in Kashmor till the filing of this report as law enforcing personnel warned them of action if they try to cross the border.

“ You will be arrested if you try to move forward”, a senior police official who was commanding the exercise warned IDPs.

Some local philanthropists arranged food and water of the stranded IDPs. The police officials told newsmen that they had clear-cut orders from the home department that no IDP should be allowed to enter Sindh.

“We have been ordered to arrest if any one (IDP) tries to enter Sindh”, a senior police official said.

Similar orders have been issued to Jaccobabad, and Kandhkot administration.

Shazia Marri defended the Sindh government’s action saying that the province could not afford the burden of such a huge migration.

She said it was better to restrict the migration within the NWFP or the adjoining cities of Punjab in order to avoid law and order and other management problems.

“ Those who have already entered Sindh and are residing with their relatives, we will not disturb them. But we cannot afford more IDPs due to peculiar situation in the province”, Ms Marri maintained.

She feared that the arrival of such a huge number of IDPs could cause law and order situation in the province.

“ Terrorist may enter Sindh and disturb the law and order under the guise of IDPs. That is why we have requested the federal government to restrict the IDPs within the camps in NWFP”, she said.

She said that those IDPs who had already managed to reach Karachi and other parts of the province, were residing with their relatives instead of any camps.

“ Camps are not the permanent solution. Ultimately, these IDPs will go and live with their relatives. And that would be very difficult for us to register and monitor them in that case”, she added.

Ms Marri said the Sindh government had already donated Rs 70 million for the IDPs, and would contribute more in future.

ONLINE - International News Network
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Most IDP's would probably only travel the large distances to Punjab and Sindh if they had friends and family willing to take them in and care for them.

Even Shazia marri admits that, 'Ultimately, these IDPs will go and live with their relatives'.

So whats wrong with that?

The two governments really need to be thrashed and shamed in the media over this.

Absolutely pathetic.
 
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"You've obviously missed the exchanges here in which Pakistani Pashtun have trashed the Afghans (Pasthun or non-Pashtun), for their animosity towards Pakistan."

Yup. No doubt I have.

"The issue is not one of 'the hill tribes having problems with the people of the plains', as you so quaintly put it, but of Pakistanis having problems with the Afghans, because the Afghans refuse to accept the fact that the Pashtun of the NWFP and FATA overwhelmingly chose to join Pakistan through referendum and jirga in 1947."

Uh huh. Sure, if you say so A.M.:rolleyes: That's why I see such an open embrace of those fine pashtu Pakistanis in this thread by the Punjabi gov't, I suppose.

Anyway, a fascinating and edifying lil' mini-drama being played out amidst the larger milieu...
 
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Yup. No doubt I have.
Go back and read some of 'Pashtun and Thunder's comments about the Afghans.:)

I can't help it if you read selectively :lol:

Uh huh. Sure, if you say so A.M.:rolleyes:
Are you contesting the history of the Pashtun joiing Pakistan, because I sure would like to see you try and show me how my statement about their overwhelming support for Pakistan in 1947 was wrong. :agree:

That's why I see such an open embrace of those fine pashtu Pakistanis in this thread by the Punjabi gov't, I suppose.
Don't equate the sentiments of Punjabis, Sindhis, Muhajir and Baluch with the, unfortunately, rather cold and calculated security and economics based decision making of the Punjab and Sindh governments. We wouldn't have huge Pashtun enclaves in all three provinces if the other ethnicities did not 'embrace' each other.

Pakistan is a multi-ethnic state, and there will be ethnic tensions as they are in any multi-ethnic or multi-racial state (the US being no exception) - there is nothing exceptional here, as there was in say Rwanda, East Pakistan or even the US today.
 
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"Are you contesting the history of the Pashtun joiing Pakistan, because I sure would like to see you try and show me how my statement about their overwhelming support for Pakistan in 1947 was wrong."

Nope. I'm suggesting that was then. This is now. That's all.

"We wouldn't have huge Pashtun enclaves in all three provinces if the other ethnicities did not 'embrace' each other."

"enclaves", eh? Says a lot there. We've ghettos too. However, we've also social mobility in each ethnicity that suggests there are roadmaps to leave such and, increasingly, the financial means to do so.

"Don't equate the sentiments of Punjabis, Sindhis, Muhajir and Baluch with the, unfortunately, rather cold and calculated security and economics based decision making of the Punjab and Sindh governments."

Well, I haven't yet reached judgement as I don't know enough and likely never will such to draw anything more than anecdotal observations. I also, though, haven't seen any comparable actions on our part during, say, Hurricane Katrina. I don't know the figures of those displaced from New Orleans but the city and much of the outlying areas were severely affected. A million? Don't know but temporary or permanent resettlement has been nationwide without restriction and we'll only know a portion of such as many fell on private resources.
 
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