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IDN TAKE: The Much Vilified Combat Readiness Of Arjun Main Battle Tank

That depends on the future of the combat environment. The PA has been toying around with the idea of a "scalpel" tank like the Altay and they might make a decision soon, so perhaps two heavies might be seen in combat. However, considering the number of anti-tank weapons of both man portable and vehicle mounted types in use by both sides; I am sceptical how long any heavy tank would be advantageous.


Heard about that Altay thing, good decision by your Army, given they do go for it.But , given the need to develop entirely new infrastructures for this platform, the induction costs will be quite high for Pakistan Army.So let's see about that.But Altay could be a tank like Altay could be a game changer in the subcontinent, that's for certain.

If goalposts are moved, then too the MoD is at fault. After all, if you are developing something inhouse.. then it falls upon you to ensure that you can aim for what you can actually achieve within that timeline.

But the MoD doesn't form the GSQR, it's the end users who do, the Army being the ones in this particular instance.

This will be difficult to swallow for many with your flag, but the JF-17 is an excellent example of knowing what you can achieve and keeping that goal.
Although I can only speak for myself, I would still say that none of the Indian members would anyway undermine or deny that fact.
 
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1.well they have given a firm order of 124 MK2 and other 220 are in process while they already have 124 in service more orders are expected after the new manufacturing line is oprational they just dont drop out of the sky it takes time and money to make them

as for AK great you have great but arjun is spear heads while T90's gonna be the mainstay with upgraded T72 ajeya will be the third line given top cover by apaches and rudras & LCH so arjun & co wont be coming alone and what do you have to counter them .... ahh i forget your NASR and tactical "atom bomb" :sarcastic:

and though its off topic but what about F16s :what:

thing is till USA cleares its allies like tureky or jordan to sell and then upgrade them they cant do anything so keep dreaming :haha:

Guru G hr jgah or hr time bongian mar k ap kia sabit krna chahte hain?

Or jb ap ki bisti ho jae (jo aksar hoti rehti he) tb ap kahin nzr ni ate.......

Khair, your life your attitude ......
SANU ki :D

Then why opening the mouth, when its for the Indian Army developed by India.

It's PAKISTAN defense ......
And I will do what ever I want .......
And I talk about matters which carry as much worth as My Slipper ....... lol

Whole tank. Its the tank only modified to suit PA

Mention the name of parts.....
"Whole tank" type replay is pure JAHALAT.

Does the Ramzan does not prevent doing Trolling

You remarks are not trolling, they are insulting..... Re read your first post and try to point out offensive part ......
False argument No 1: The Arjun tank, after decades of failure, can’t suddenly have turned the corner!

It hasn’t “suddenly turned the corner”. It turned the corner very gradually, from around mid-2004. A major landmark came in early 2005, when the problem of the hydro pneumatic suspension unit (HSU) was licked. And in June 2005, the Arjun was to prove its capability in comparative trials in the Mahajan Field Firing Ranges (MFFR); the army agreed to comparative trials involving 5 Arjuns, 5 T-72s and 5 T-90s.

That turned out to be a total fiasco! The Arjun’s electronics packed up in the heat and the trials were over even before they began. The generals who came, including the Western Army Commander, laughed all the way back to their helicopters. The chief, who was to fly in for the trials was rung up and told not to take the trouble.

THAT WAS THE TURNING POINT.

The CVRDE put in a huge effort to heat-harden its electronics, which is something that bears fruit today. While the T-90 is now looking for air-conditioners, the post-2005 electronics in the Arjun can function flawlessly through 60 degrees.

In summer 2006, stringent firing trials by 43 Armoured Regiment established --- in the words of the army’s own trial team --- that the "accuracy and consistency of the Arjun tank was proved beyond doubt".

Later that year, the MoD stated to Parliament’s Standing Committee on Defence that, "Arjun's firing accuracy is far superior to the other two tanks."

In summer 2007, when the army was being pressured to conduct comparative trials, the DGMF raised another objection: the Arjun should be able to drive for 20 minutes in six feet of water. By the end of 2007, the CVRDE managed that as well.

In the Accelerated Usage cum Reliability Trials (AUCRT), which was held in five phases over the first half of this year, the Arjun had problems in the transmission system (not the MTU engine as widely reported, but the Renk transmission) during the first three phases. Engineers from Renk GMbH, Germany came and fixed that and in the last two phases, which were the really tough, heavy desert, hot weather phases, the Arjun performed flawlessly.

The process of turning the corner has been a slow one, but it symbolises exactly why one should go for an Indian tank: each drawback was analysed by our engineers, fixed according to the users’ instructions, and then delivered back to the users without charging them a penny. Contrast that with the problems with the T-90’s electronics. Nobody is fixing that problem; instead, the Russians are trying to sell us air-conditioners. Added expense, and an inefficient solution compared to heat-hardening the electronics, the way the CVRDE did.

False argument No 2: The manufacturers of T-90 have 5 decades of experience under their belt. The T-90 is drawn from the bloodline of T-72 and T-55, both of which are battle proven.

Even the Russians are not buying into the myth of the T-90. That tank entered service with the Russian Army around 1996 and, till today, there are barely 250 T-90s defending Mother Russia! India has more T-90s in service than the Russian Army… and once we implement the full contract, we will have 6 times more T-90s than the Russian Army.

I wonder why the Russian Army isn’t accepting such a blue-blooded tank with such a fine pedigree??? The Russian Army prefers to use: 2144 numbers of T-72s, 3044 numbers of T-80s, 689 numbers of T-62s (plus 3000 more in storage), and even 1000 rickety old T-55s.

Sorry, but there are no more orders from Russia for T-90s.

False argument No 3: The soldiers who operate the Arjun doubt its capabilities as a frontline tank.

The Arjun tank has been operated by 43 Armoured Regiment since over a decade; 43 is delighted with the tank. I have a very close friend who commanded that regiment and he always argued that a regiment of Arjun tanks was worth two regiments of T-72s. And this was even before the Arjun turned the corner!

After the firing trials in June 2006, 43 Armoured Regiment pronounced itself delighted with the Arjun’s firing performance. As I said above, 43 Armoured Regiment endorsed in its trial report, “The accuracy and consistency of the Arjun has been proved beyond doubt.” The brigade commander, Brigadier Chandra Mukesh, himself from 43 Armoured Regiment, endorsed that report whole-heartedly.

But the DGMF was quick to strike back. Barely three months after that report, the commanding officer of 43 Armoured Regiment, Colonel D Thakur, was confronted by then DGMF, Lt Gen DS Shekhawat. Several eyewitnesses have described to me how Colonel Thakur was upbraided by Lt Gen Shekhawat for “not conducting the trials properly”. Fortunately for Colonel Thakur, his brigade commander, Brigadier Chandra Mukesh, intervened and argued strongly that the trials had been conducted in accordance with procedure.

Talk to the crewmen, the drivers, gunners, operators… and you’ll get an even clearer endorsement. They all love the modular construction of the Arjun, which makes maintenance so easy. Changing a T-72 engine takes a full day; changing an Arjun engine takes a couple of hours.

Minister of State for Defence Production, Rao Inderjeet Singh recounts, “I’ve spoken, off the record, to officers who have gone through the trials. Even the crews (from 43 Armoured Regiment)… who have been testing the tank… I forced them to choose between the Russian tanks and the Arjun. I said, you’ve driven this tank and you’ve driven that tank (the T-90). Now mark them out of ten, which tank is better? And I’ve found that the Arjun tank was given more numbers than the T-90 tank.”

False argument No 4: The army has several objections to accepting the Arjun. Somebody writes, “After all, this is NOT pakistan where the generals are not accountable to anyone.”

The most astonishing part of the Arjun story is that the army (read DGMF) really doesn’t have a clear list of objections to the Arjun. Their objections vary from day to day, and with who they are talking to. Some of their objections --- such as that of the Arjun’s 60-ton weight --- run counter to the army’s own GSQR.

What is clear is that the MoD is happy with the Arjun. According to the Parliamentary Standing Committee for Defence’s last annual report for 2007-08, the MoD testified before the Committee that the Arjun tank was:

• “A product unique in its class”, and “an improved system over the T-72.”
• “Rs 6-8 crores cheaper than its contemporary system in the West”.
• “Far superior (in firing accuracy) to the other two tanks (T-72 and T-90)”.
• “Driven for over 60,000 kms and fired more than 8,000 rounds. There was no problem.”

So you judge: if that's what the MoD is saying... aren't the generals conveying an entirely false impression?

False argument No 5: The Arjun failed the AUCRT this summer

As I mentioned above, the Arjun performed creditably during the AUCRT, once Renk solved the transmission system problem.

But what is far more important is the fact that AUCRT is not a “performance trials”. It is not possible for a tank to “pass” or “fail” the AUCRT. The purpose of the AUCRT is to run a small number of tanks for thousands of kilometres and make them fire hundreds of rounds, basically putting them through their entire service lifespan in a few months. The aim of doing this is to evaluate what spares get consumed during the life-span of the tank; what maintenance and overhaul tasks should be scheduled at what stage of a tank’s life; an AUCRT evaluates a tank’s logistical needs, not its operational performance.

But when the transmission gave some problems in the first three phases of AUCRT, the DGMF was quick to seize the chance to bad-mouth the tank, and to convey the false impression that the Arjun had “failed its trials”.

THE ONLY TRIALS THAT WILL EFFECTIVELY EVALUATE THE ARJUN’S OPERATIONAL CAPABILITY --- AND THAT TOO IN COMPARISON TO ITS RUSSIAN RIVALS --- ARE COMPARATIVE TRIALS, ORGANISED BY A THIRD PARTY WITHOUT VESTED INTERESTS IN THE OUTCOME. THAT MUST BE DEMANDED BY THE MoD.

Chest beating again :lol:
 
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Guru G hr jgah or hr time bongian mar k ap kia sabit krna chahte hain?

Or jb ap ki bisti ho jae (jo aksar hoti rehti he) tb ap kahin nzr ni ate.......

Khair, your life your attitude ......
SANU ki :D
Tipu bhiyye meri bezatti ki chorro but the point is Arjun MBT has turned out to be a great platform and DRDO with help of both israelies and french is trying to make it even better and there are at least three new off shoots of arjun programme in the pipe line so dont worry we wont kill this programme :coffee:
 
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Well the Indian Army and IAF needs to learn from Indian navy how to induct indigenous weapon systems in time saving precious foreign exchange as well. like wise Tejas too has been pinned down by IAF in past many times
 
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rather DRDO is an incompetent organization.. army should be very wary of these guys.. they use publicity and news to push their hardware.. ask public sympathy and show themselves as victim...
Why would you attribute competence to the Army and incompetence to DRDO. Both must be fairly matched. They are both our people.
As per all the reports that I have seen, Arjun did have initial problems, but seems to be doing better that T90's in comparative trials. Is this untue?
If it is true, then why still blame DRDO?
 
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Why would you attribute competence to the Army and incompetence to DRDO. Both must be fairly matched. They are both our people.
As per all the reports that I have seen, Arjun did have initial problems, but seems to be doing better that T90's in comparative trials. Is this untue?
If it is true, then why still blame DRDO?
have you ever been to any govt office.. and a private company in same city? both are our people, why one is efficient and other is good for nothing?
DRDO is a white elephant.. our army may not be awesome, but they need to get decent hardware... and DRDO's stuff is not cheap either. when we did not have option we needed it, but now army got options.. do you still buy crappy godrej fridge or onida tv?
Problem is, armed forces can only truely say things about DRDO in private otherwise they will be called unpatriotic. DRDO on other hand can write every type of propaganda, just read some of the things their boss says, bigger feku than Modi, the guy is(and the one before him)
 
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have you ever been to any govt office.. and a private company in same city? both are our people, why one is efficient and other is good for nothing?
DRDO is a white elephant.. our army may not be awesome, but they need to get decent hardware... and DRDO's stuff is not cheap either. when we did not have option we needed it, but now army got options.. do you still buy crappy godrej fridge or onida tv?
Problem is, armed forces can only truely say things about DRDO in private otherwise they will be called unpatriotic. DRDO on other hand can write every type of propaganda, just read some of the things their boss says, bigger feku than Modi, the guy is(and the one before him)


Dude, when Russia denied the barrel, composite armor, or a key section of T90's turret armor, who did the army have to call on? That's when they had to work closely with the developer, isnt it? When they found out Russia gave a barebones tank to them.
 
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have you ever been to any govt office.. and a private company in same city? both are our people, why one is efficient and other is good for nothing?
Yes I have. During the last 10 years, things have improved in lot of government offices. State government offices included. The apathy is not isolated to govt. offices alone.

DRDO is a white elephant.. our army may not be awesome, but they need to get decent hardware... and DRDO's stuff is not cheap either. when we did not have option we needed it, but now army got options.. do you still buy crappy godrej fridge or onida tv?
Problem is, armed forces can only truely say things about DRDO in private otherwise they will be called unpatriotic. DRDO on other hand can write every type of propaganda, just read some of the things their boss says, bigger feku than Modi, the guy is(and the one before him)

I am only talking of Arjun here. Based on whatever is seen on either the CAG report OR the competitive trials, Arjun has done well.
If issues of dimension and weight are a problem now, wasn't it the responsibility of the army to have communicated it during design phase itself? Especially when they knew that this effort was going on, they should have ensured continuous monitoring and feedback.
 
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It's PAKISTAN defense ......
And I will do what ever I want .......
And I talk about matters which carry as much worth as My Slipper ....... lol

The thread is of Arjun Tank, so better keep away Al-khalid out. Haven't you realize that Arjun tank is the Heavy MBT not the medium wt Tank, and lighter tank like T-72 and T-90 compliment Arjun Tank in a battle, so there is no need to compare it with the Medium tank.

The problem with IA for not inducting it in numbers is that, those Heavy MBT need not to inducted in high number, and IA have to formulate the Tactics and Strategy around it, which takes several years. Time is gone when the war was fought on the Platform Specific, and now the importance of Net Centric, and Battle field Management with all other assets like UAVs, combat helicopter, and situation awareness makes the difference, in which it qualify better to give its role as a whole system. Like it or not Arjun Tank will become the Spear Head of the main thrust in the plains of Punjab and Rajasthan and with the BMS, Arjun will showcase the real Hunter Killer Ability. Other than that, IA and DRDO have realized that, the FMBT would not be 50 Ton, rather 70 Tons, that's why the FMBT would be based on Arjun aka Arjun MK-3. What is needed is the 1800 HP Engine, rather than 1400 HP, on which India is working on indegenous solution Made-in-India Cummins 1,700hp diesel engine coupled to an ESM-500 automatic transmissionr, moreover the same power engine have been proposed by Ukraine. In short there is no need to reduce the wt. of Arjun Mk-1A and MK-2 Tank.

Now if the IA GSQR for the projected 1200 FMBT stuck to 50 ton configuration, the viable option is the engine like the new-generation LV-100 gas turbine coupled to the X-1100-3B transmission from Detroit Diesel Allison, with 3 men Crew.

As far as my choice is conserned, its better to reduce the number of Armoured tank from 4000 to 2500 are increase the Combat Hellicopter like ALH Rudra instead of T-55, and wasting money on the upgradation of T-72. And to except Arjun MK-3 as the FMBT, with 1800 hp engine with FADEEC, 70 Tons wt, digitised vectronics suite—comprising the hunter-killer fire-control system, radar/laser warning system, IFF transponder, APS, BMS, software-defined radio communications suite, health and usage monitoring system incorporating on-board diagnostics and maintenance log-book modes, multi-spectral decoy/camouflage generation system, and the turret traverse/stabilisation system—should be integrated with a MIL-STD-1553B digital databus, 55mm of the existing Riffled bore cannon firing HEAT, HESH and AP-FSDS rounds, and which should also be able to fire laser-guided or imaging infra-red guided anti-tank/anti-helicopter projectiles.
 
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thing is arjun was concievd in a hurry when in zia time there was firm beleve that USA is going to give M1 abrahams to pakistan but when PA finnally chose ukranian T84 IA lost interests in arjun and then they started changing goal posts after every 2-3 years

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as for the so called fancy terms like hunter killer well arjun has one of the best of it in most leading MBTs in the world today only problem is it as per indian army now is that they want it to be at least 5-10 tonne lighter without loosing any of its protection and offensice cabillities
Why PA choose t84 over M1s?
 
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