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IAF vice-chief prefers reverse engg to build defence systems

sir i never discussed here anything abt chinese reverse engineering capacity

by giving example of rafele i am just quoting that india should go their way even if it take time and even if we have to start from scratch as only self development can bolster our R@D capability



Umm, did i say something in French or German? I meant the same thing. What i wanted to clear out was why 20 years on Rafale was better than lets say 10 years of reverse engineering. There are countless examples. But the point is that Original R&D will kick reverse engineering in the butt any day. The fact that IAF air vice chief wants to do it, means he has no idea what he would want in the next 20 years. If you don't start now, someone else would. Then they would be in a better position, maybe not today, but in 20 years time.

Relax mate.....
 
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Unethical, unprofessional call by Vice-Chief...

By such act, we will lost our credibility. I second his thoughts.
 
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Umm, did i say something in French or German? I meant the same thing. What i wanted to clear out was why 20 years on Rafale was better than lets say 10 years of reverse engineering. There are countless examples. But the point is that Original R&D will kick reverse engineering in the butt any day. The fact that IAF air vice chief wants to do it, means he has no idea what he would want in the next 20 years. If you don't start now, someone else would. Then they would be in a better position, maybe not today, but in 20 years time.

Relax mate.....

ur r again and again twisting the plot by involving another nations in a topic that just relate to india,name any reverse engineered copy that u can say is better thaen rafele(a project that took 20 yrs)...we have no problem if someone is getting ahead of us using reverse eng as like u have seen in MMRCA the best is always available for us

reverse engineering is not a permanent solution,but developing R@D is
rafale took 20 yrs of time...but its next varient will not even take 3 yrs to develop as they have already mastered the product
 
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when i said reverse engg i didn't meant just copy the whole system and assemble it what i meant was we should learn the architecture and take that as a starting point and creating a whole new product.


Maybe Iran and China can assist India with this mission.

Thanks but no thanks.:wave:
 
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ur r again and again twisting the plot by involving another nations in a topic that just relate to india,name any reverse engineered copy that u can say is better thaen rafele(a project that took 20 yrs)...we have no problem if someone is getting ahead of us using reverse eng as like u have seen in MMRCA the best is always available for us

reverse engineering is not a permanent solution,but developing R@D is
rafale took 20 yrs of time...but its next varient will not even take 3 yrs to develop as they have already mastered the product



By stating that you have the best available like MMRCA actually you are now proving to be more ill logical than i thought of.

My idea was to compare the benefits of R&D with Reverse engineering.
What you gain and what not...


Simply put, you can buy off the shelf with large amounts of money. But considering the fact that a sixth of the world's population (India i mean) wouldn't benefit in any way from it means you are just wasting resources. To develop into a super power you need to have your roots right. No one is saying that you cannot buy. Infact you can increase your Defense Budget to near the size of US defense budget, i.e 50% of GDP and go around buying anything possible. But your scientific and defense community will gain nothing. Next generations want to know what India made it self. Not what they bought up.

The reason why i brought other countries was that to tell you how the Western world differs than the east. China, India, Pakistan and maybe that is one reason why their economies are so advanced.

Here is what Wernher von Braun famously said ( The guy who build V-2 German rocket and later the mighty Saturn V)

''Science knows no country, because knowledge belongs to humanity, and is the torch which illuminates the world. Science is the highest personification of the nation because that nation will always remain the first which carries the furthest the works of thought and intelligence.''

That last sentence is worth noting....



French made Mirage, learned lessons, Delta wing not good for air-air combat, so they introduced canards leading to awesome Rafale.

Americans started with F-86s, F-16 ( Negative static stability) which was later on every aircraft leading to F/A22 and JSF.

Europeans, same story with the Eurofighter.

I am not even going to go into the fact that how many other industries have benefited from the R&D that went into military jets. HUDs in modern cars is one example so is drive by wire. Carbon fiber, Magnesium and titanium alloys and the development of cleaner fuels. Honeycomb structures and modern computers. In fact in America people attribute the advent of Personal Desktops to the development needs of the Space shuttle? Getting the idea what i mean? Investing in your own Fighter R&D will not only produce great fighters, but will also develop other industries

If today India Starts to design its own fighters, it might take it 20 years, but then you will end up with your own version, research in materials will lead to start up firms in India doing research in that field, landing gear, engines, fuel all of which will benefit the entire country, not just a few squadrons of the air force that were simply equipped with billions of dollars of bought planes.

Now what will India gain from MMRCA? No experience, no R&D. If you are willing to spend upwards of 10 billion dollars, at least let it be so that your future scientists and engineers have something to talk about.


It's never too late to start. Your ambitions of becoming a superpower cannot be done without having strong roots in R&D. Buying is not always the best option, though it might be the quickest one.

With a sound R&D you can secure your future from any set backs, sanctions, external pressure etc.


Long story short, the discussion is that the Air Vice Chief is making an irresponsible remark by saying that India should go towards reverse engineering. We, the south asians are already good at it. What he should instead be saying is to increase the funding for original and innovative ideas. A guy as senior as him, simply make no sense by saying you should do reverse engineering.


Sorry for the long posts, but please do read them before you reply!
 
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The whole idea of reverse engineering is that you don't need help from other countries.

Sir,

In order to reverse engineer, you need something to begin with. Something that you will reverse engineer/copy. Now where will you find that thing?

China was desperate to get its hands on the F-16s for a reason. I am not too sure and i don't want to get scolded at this, but i think Pakistan sent one complete F-16 to China along with mechanics and pilots to aid in the development of JF-17 and J-10.

I have talked to a former Base commander who was in charge of the earlier FT-6/ F-6 program with China. He claimed that Pakistan sent 1 f-16 to China, which they dismantled and were late unable to put together and Pakistan claimed it to be lost in crash.

Pakistan received 40 F-16s in 80s right?

Can someone please look for authentic count, and what was the final number, like 32? And what happened to exactly 8 of them,

One was lost in friendly fire,
One was crashed upon landing..


I do not know what happened to the remaining.......Someone might wanna help???
 
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By stating that you have the best available like MMRCA actually you are now proving to be more ill logical than i thought of.

My idea was to compare the benefits of R&D with Reverse engineering.
What you gain and what not...


Simply put, you can buy off the shelf with large amounts of money. But considering the fact that a sixth of the world's population (India i mean) wouldn't benefit in any way from it means you are just wasting resources. To develop into a super power you need to have your roots right. No one is saying that you cannot buy. Infact you can increase your Defense Budget to near the size of US defense budget, i.e 50% of GDP and go around buying anything possible. But your scientific and defense community will gain nothing. Next generations want to know what India made it self. Not what they bought up.

The reason why i brought other countries was that to tell you how the Western world differs than the east. China, India, Pakistan and maybe that is one reason why their economies are so advanced.

Here is what Wernher von Braun famously said ( The guy who build V-2 German rocket and later the mighty Saturn V)

''Science knows no country, because knowledge belongs to humanity, and is the torch which illuminates the world. Science is the highest personification of the nation because that nation will always remain the first which carries the furthest the works of thought and intelligence.''

That last sentence is worth noting....



French made Mirage, learned lessons, Delta wing not good for air-air combat, so they introduced canards leading to awesome Rafale.

Americans started with F-86s, F-16 ( Negative static stability) which was later on every aircraft leading to F/A22 and JSF.

Europeans, same story with the Eurofighter.

I am not even going to go into the fact that how many other industries have benefited from the R&D that went into military jets. HUDs in modern cars is one example so is drive by wire. Carbon fiber, Magnesium and titanium alloys and the development of cleaner fuels. Honeycomb structures and modern computers. In fact in America people attribute the advent of Personal Desktops to the development needs of the Space shuttle? Getting the idea what i mean? Investing in your own Fighter R&D will not only produce great fighters, but will also develop other industries

If today India Starts to design its own fighters, it might take it 20 years, but then you will end up with your own version, research in materials will lead to start up firms in India doing research in that field, landing gear, engines, fuel all of which will benefit the entire country, not just a few squadrons of the air force that were simply equipped with billions of dollars of bought planes.

Now what will India gain from MMRCA? No experience, no R&D. If you are willing to spend upwards of 10 billion dollars, at least let it be so that your future scientists and engineers have something to talk about.


It's never too late to start. Your ambitions of becoming a superpower cannot be done without having strong roots in R&D. Buying is not always the best option, though it might be the quickest one.

With a sound R&D you can secure your future from any set backs, sanctions, external pressure etc.


Long story short, the discussion is that the Air Vice Chief is making an irresponsible remark by saying that India should go towards reverse engineering. We, the south asians are already good at it. What he should instead be saying is to increase the funding for original and innovative ideas. A guy as senior as him, simply make no sense by saying you should do reverse engineering.


Sorry for the long posts, but please do read them before you reply!

and ur again and again pulling illogical stats by bringing chinese reverse eng methods

i dont know how many time should i tell u we prefer R@D more than reverse eng,even if it take 4 times more than it

reverse eng is not a permanent solution

MMRCA u dont get it i think....it comes with ToT that means technical assistance(transfer of tech)

now let me make my point more sharp....i am taking out rafael and bringing in LCA

we tried to make a system from scrap...still not able to complete it...so did we throw the project ....no we r still continuing with it even if it take more yrs...because once we achive the tech it will b much easy for us to go to the next varient

as far as ur concern of somebody else getting the edge

china run ahead of us by making J-10 by reverse eng but actually r they ahead of as in war front

no as far as we have su-30

again putting MMRCA in the process...within 1 yr the winner will b declared(most probably eurofighter)which will b their to always give us edge

as far as we dont develop tech of the same kind(not by rev eng) we have no problem in purchasing these systems

it is all about what we gain rather than short cut
 
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and ur again and again pulling illogical stats by bringing chinese reverse eng methods

i dont know how many time should i tell u we prefer R@D more than reverse eng,even if it take 4 times more than it

reverse eng is not a permanent solution

MMRCA u dont get it i think....it comes with ToT that means technical assistance(transfer of tech)

now let me make my point more sharp....i am taking out rafael and bringing in LCA

we tried to make a system from scrap...still not able to complete it...so did we throw the project ....no we r still continuing with it even if it take more yrs...because once we achive the tech it will b much easy for us to go to the next varient

as far as ur concern of somebody else getting the edge

china run ahead of us by making J-10 by reverse eng but actually r they ahead of as in war front

no as far as we have su-30

again putting MMRCA in the process...within 1 yr the winner will b declared(most probably eurofighter)which will b their to always give us edge

as far as we dont develop tech of the same kind(not by rev eng) we have no problem in purchasing these systems

it is all about what we gain rather than short cut



I'll just answer to three of your points....


First, my post that you quoted doesn't mention China or it's reverse engineering, other than in one line as ''China...''.


This shows you didn't read properly and by the way, the way you type incomplete words, i assume you are in a hurry and hence not in a mood to read, but just post garbage.


Second, ToT is not R&D. They just give you the license to manufacture, support the OEM. Turkey had that for F-16s, even assembly lines, still they couldn't make their own fighter. They can only upgrade etc, like Pakistani F-16s.


Lastly, After reading this:-

''china run ahead of us by making J-10 by reverse eng but actually r they ahead of as in war front

no as far as we have su-30''...

I realized that you have no idea what you are talking about.

200 Su-30s against Hundreds of J-10,SU 22, J-11, J-7........i don't think you stand a chance.



My mistake i replied to your posts. Now i know i wasted my time. Maybe some other member would understand.
 
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well...looking at the pace of development of our own indigenous

projects....i\\\'ll back the thoughts of vice air chief marshal,although its

unethical n unfruitful in the long run........

whats the use of reinventing somethng...

owr own lca,has been in development for 3 decades,now atlast

production will start.....yes it was a great experience for hal,drdo n it

will help to develop new aircrafts......but at the end of the day it took

30 years to make low end aircraft....could have been better if we did

it like china,faster n cheaper(i dont know if we still can,reverse

engineering is not as easy as few here believe)
 
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I'll just answer to three of your points....


First, my post that you quoted doesn't mention China or it's reverse engineering, other than in one line as ''China...''.

Second, ToT is not R&D. They just give you the license to manufacture, support the OEM. Turkey had that for F-16s, even assembly lines, still they couldn't make their own fighter. They can only upgrade etc, like Pakistani F-16s.


Lastly, After reading this:-

''china run ahead of us by making J-10 by reverse eng but actually r they ahead of as in war front

no as far as we have su-30''...

I realized that you have no idea what you are talking about.

200 Su-30s against Hundreds of J-10,SU 22, J-11, J-7........i don't think you stand a chance.



My mistake i replied to your posts. Now i know i wasted my time. Maybe some other member would understand.

ToT stands as a base for R@D

there is only 196 aircraft serving with PLAAF,and requirment of only abt 300 planes.....from were u get the rest of the number.....and that to all employed against india....there must b something left for 7th fleet

the rest of the fighters r even no match for su-30

dont bother to reply and dont waste ur time...as already my brain is in pain talking with u
 
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the IAF chief knows what he is talking about.

Engineering a system from scratch goes like this: information flows from idea, to plan, to product.

Reverse engineering, is simply trying to have information flow backward: go from product, to plan. Then you try to make a copy, or an improvement, of that product, from the plan that you derived from the product.

This requires substantial creativity. it is like to taking apart a television, drawing a blueprint for that television, and then making another television from those blueprints. But do you think that after someone does this, they will have no idea of what a television does, is, or the idea of a television? no. they have now gained the knowledge of what exactly is inside a television, what makes it work, and what its function is. Now, from this knowledge, they can think of ways to improve this television to their needs.

It requires a different type of originality than creating a new design, but is just as creative and much cheaper.

I hope India never does this though so it can be kept down and not a threat.
 
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ToT stands as a base for R@D

there is only 196 aircraft serving with PLAAF,and requirment of only abt 300 planes.....from were u get the rest of the number.....and that to all employed against india....there must b something left for 7th fleet

the rest of the fighters r even no match for su-30

dont bother to reply and dont waste ur time...as already my brain is in pain talking with u


umm,

Check the following links to see how many aircraft are in service.....and how many can be deployed:-


CHINESE AIR POWER - PEOPLE'S LIBERATION ARMY AIR FORCE


and


People's Liberation Army Air Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Indian SU-30s or not, they (Chinese aircraft) are more than enough. A couple of hundred IAF Su30 and a couple of hundred PLAAF J-10s, neutralizes IAF Su 30s considerably even if J-10s don't win. ( There is a separate thread on that so i wont start J-10 vs Su30). Then add Su 27, SU 30 and J-11 plus the 500+ J-7s......

Yes China would deploy majority of them towards India. You think Russia is going to help you?How much did they help you in the 60s?
 
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