IAF to take final call on AMCA’s engine : DRDO Chief

[peagus]

From what i have come across so far on AMCA the first prototype would be flying in late 2018 and early 2019 with two flying prototype models and 4 instrument testing models. the initial prototypes wold be flying with GE 404 98KN trust class engines. but a fully loaded AMCA would need 110 KN trust class engine.

So they are working on increasing the trust class of Kavari engine from 70 to 98 to 110+KN in phases so it can also be used in LCA. Parallel to this they are also trying to acquire GE 414 with 110-125 KN modification, I feel they may work on both engines simultaneously and for the engine that comes out first.

On the other hand India has already ordered 1000 GE **** engines for LAC.( i dont remember which engine) ,so I assume few of them would be produced locally. If that happens AMCA will eventually endup with GE engines.

As of last year the final design and wind tunnel testing have been completed and the official first flight of AMCA prototype is planned in late 2017 and early 2018 but given the delays i would say late 2019. AMCA wont take long like LCA because in the process of developing the LCA we even improved the infrastructure so developing the infrastructure wont take time. LCA is inhouse manufactured by HAL and they learnt from their mistake. AMCA is a modular design and it involves a lot of off the shelf components and most of the jet is manufactured by outsourcing to private and public firms in joint ventures with foreign firms.

 

[Nilgiri]

If GE is able to match all this and share with us GE 414 in a similar way with both Table 2 and 3 adherence , then yes they do stand a solid chance. But what is the thing which will bind them to share is the million dollar question?

I can say with near certainty they will not (share for free or near free). I am privy to just how much RnD goes on w.r.t critical jet engine technology...esp in the HP spool. These are 6 figure salaries paid out to many scientists and engineers over many years, not to mention the capital investment....just to get fraction of a percentage ahead with time.

Suffice to say in a JV, at most the LP spool would be outsourced to India with any ToT that may involve (and it wont amount to much really because Indian can already make LP spools pretty cost effectively at high quality - just ask BHEL about it). The latest HP spool ToT is simply not going to happen unless there is a significant amount of resource India pays up (the more you want, the exponentially higher the cost will be in the last 10% of so of optimisation).

You have to remember that GE, PW, RR...and the rest all depend on controlling the market as much as they can in the future. To each other, they are known entities....they certainly are not going to involve themselves in creating a new unknown entity for nothing. Either they have to have control of it financially in some significant way or its literally an extension of the parent company (like who I work for here in Canada).

Someone might say, but we are talking about military jet engines here....not civilian....but it doesnt matter! The largest markets are civilian markets...and any military tech here will be a huge foothold into the civilian commercial market as well. That is where the true long term costs will be measured in relation to helping India with a HP spool by anyone thats established in the sector at the top tier.

Thats why I am almost 100% sure that if there is a JV arrangement, the most cost effective and prudent thing to do for India is to go for as much of the LP spool as possible, as much of the HP spool that the provider (GE) will give for reasonable resource transfer...and the rest import directly as needed. This will get a good quality AMCA engine in the least amount of time for the least amount of money and maximum ToT transfer in this environment.

This can be hedged with continued independent development of Kaveri with consulting whichever company/country (like has been offered by France) to allow our own Scientists and engineers to make headway more indigenously so they can for themselves over time build up the knowhow, data and expertise from the ground up in the highest levels of jet engine technology.

This is especially important for another reason. India cannot afford to become dependent on just buying HP spool technology....because I know for a fact there are many Tier B and Tier C approaches and developments that can be marketed as Tier A with Tier A pricing in the latest cutting edge of HP spool....and without the know-how and expertise yourself...you simply have no frame of reference or way of auditing what you are receiving...and you will create a glaring dependency over time and a painful fiscal bill on top.

Its much better to do it the hard way and get the specific consultancy where absolutely required (that you can end -verify appropriately much more cheaply by simple side by side comparison) and make all the mistakes that need to be made and learn from them and keep pushing forward. Thats how many manufacturers caught up with the leaders over time in almost any top notch high tech industry (be it cutting edge materials, semiconductors, nuclear power etc...)

 

[HariPrasad]

This is very important. We need to bring in engine as soon as possible. In fact I recomment AMCA to be developed in 2 phase. 1st, Normak 110 KN engine and subsequently TVC of 110 KN.

 

[Grevion]

Is there any problem with doing both? We cant hedge everything with Kaveri succeeding with French help.

We can do both and it will be logical to go for GE because of the commonality with the lca mk1a and maybe mk2. But then how much American involvement do we want in our indigenous fighter product.
The original plan should be to keep as much Indian control in our next gen fighter aircraft.

 

[rockstarIN]

Any time frame for AMCA design freeze?

 

[Spectre]

There are multiple things when it comes to so called technology transfer especially for a product like Jet Engine.
A simple diagram like this below will help all of the readers understand it more easily
View attachment 315953
Some quick points

• A product design is achieved through laboratory development and prototype development. This element can be directly transferred through documentation and the hardware itself.
• Manufacturing techniques are established through the combination of manufacturing process development and pilot production steps. Again, these techniques can be transferred through documentation and hardware.
• Quality assurance techniques are developed from product testing in pilot production and data gathering entailed in engineering support. These two steps incorporate design refinement and continuous updating of the product; new state-of-the-art techniques also form part of the technology transfer package and are transferred through documentation and people.
• Another very important element of transferrable technology is that of product management techniques. These techniques are not exactly product oriented, nor do they directly relate to the steps outlined above. They include the development and management skills to ensure sufficient and timely production of high-quality products at a predetermined cost. This element and that of quality assurance techniques constitute the most valuable ingredients that many overseas suppliers have to offer to Indian industry in a technology transfer package.

Now if we understand further how we can audit it that TOT is really done?
View attachment 315954

Now as you can see this is the the glimpse of true need in Jet Engine technology transfer

So consider the cases
1. GE 414 - Will GE give this whole course of actionables as defined above? Their Billion $$ research to India completely so that India can manufacture from scratch everything with no restriction or dependency?

2. Russian options: The AL 31 program showed we made things from raw material stage but certain portions still with Russian import mechanism and we dont have the actual knowledge as perhaps depicted in above two tables

3. JV route: The JV route normally will mean certain portion IP either jointly held or the JV partner being adequately compensated. or the portion of engine (some%) being procured from the maker to reward its participation. But its a long shot process.. JV will need resources pooled and will require time to show results.. And no country would like to give top of the line tech out for free or without a much bigger benefit

4. Kaveri program participation.. Imagine GE, Safran or anyone as consultant. Unless there is a credible liability on their head to make Kaveri successful as per the expectation, no consultant would like to help first. Now in GE case, we have not demanded any offset where they help us make Kaveri successful simply bcz the deal is more FMS type. In Rafale case which is negotiated, there is a chance that Euro 1 Bn may be pumped into Kaveri to make it work as this is an obligation on Dassault and Safran as part of credible offset implementation.

If you see Safran Euro 1 Bn point will be just in pilot production stage in Table 2. Implying much of the work and rights are held directly by India with no issue for Safran. Its work is to improve the pilot production and engineering support to meet the targeted numbers. Of course from engineering perspective, it will look deeper and suggest changes and may help to improve maintenance angle as well .. In simple words it will not create much of the so called sharing in manufacturing process beyond perhaps the vital parts of high pressure /low pressure setup and bring in hot engine tech etc... Thus it can help us develop and evolve our product further.

The same from Table 3 audit matrix perspective will be more agreeable via this route of Kaveri funding and making it reach our goal.

The sole reason in this side of positive is the offset implementation part which binds the Safran side bcz the French government and Dassault want a much bigger pie and order of Rafales

If GE is able to match all this and share with us GE 414 in a similar way with both Table 2 and 3 adherence , then yes they do stand a solid chance. But what is the thing which will bind them to share is the million dollar question?

@Abingdonboy @Taygibay @Vergennes @Spectre @MilSpec @AUSTERLITZ @SpArK @anant_s @Picdelamirand-oil @BON PLAN @zebra7 @randomradio

My friend I am confused about this partial IP thing. How does it work? Lets take an example and translate Safran's offer on that basis

Let us say Jet Engine has 4 core technologies A, B, C and D.

1. India has already developed A perfectly

2. India has developed B but it has teething issues i.e. product works but not perfectly. Failure rate can be high, efficiency not as desired and so on.

3. India has theoretical data that is documentation for C but is unable to translate that documentation to a finish products due to gaps in manufacturing.

4. India has no clue about D.

Now you need all A,B, C and D to arrive at a Jet engine for AMCA or Tejas

In comes Safran or GE who have all the four parts working perfectly together in sync.

In a JV - India contributes A and B, Safran helps with C and withholds D? Makes India buy D?

 

[PARIKRAMA]

My friend I am confused about this partial IP thing. How does it work? Lets take an example and translate Safran's offer on that basis

Let us say Jet Engine has 4 core technologies A, B, C and D.

1. India has already developed A perfectly

2. India has developed B but it has teething issues i.e. product works but not perfectly. Failure rate can be high, efficiency not as desired and so on.

3. India has theoretical data that is documentation for C but is unable to translate that documentation to a finish products due to gaps in manufacturing.

4. India has no clue about D.

Now you need all A,B, C and D to arrive at a Jet engine for AMCA or Tejas

In comes Safran or GE who have all the four parts working perfectly together in sync.

In a JV - India contributes A and B, Safran helps with C and withholds D? Makes India buy D?

Well in Indian case the deal will.be that

either the entire work right from A,B,C all IP are held by India (as per RFP) and the party who enables us this is duly compensated in monetary terms
Or
The JV holds the joint rights but for helping in B and C requires research and metallurgical cost for the process.. so it has to be funded by India and they will "guide" us.. in order to make a proper working engine meeting our requirements..


Licence production is basically D option - al31 what we r doing for 30mki.. when we don knw anything at all..

Yes critical tech will be withhold unless we pay a price either for outright purchase plus the whole tot process/industrial side as well..


In our case, specifically kaveri case it will be just A, B and C only.

For any other case like GE414 or M88 or EJ 200 series it's Option D inly

 

[faithfulguy]

My friend I am confused about this partial IP thing. How does it work? Lets take an example and translate Safran's offer on that basis

Let us say Jet Engine has 4 core technologies A, B, C and D.

1. India has already developed A perfectly

2. India has developed B but it has teething issues i.e. product works but not perfectly. Failure rate can be high, efficiency not as desired and so on.

3. India has theoretical data that is documentation for C but is unable to translate that documentation to a finish products due to gaps in manufacturing.

4. India has no clue about D.

Now you need all A,B, C and D to arrive at a Jet engine for AMCA or Tejas

In comes Safran or GE who have all the four parts working perfectly together in sync.

In a JV - India contributes A and B, Safran helps with C and withholds D? Makes India buy D?

India should find the engine and design the plane around it. It's easier than the other way around.

 

[Michael Corleone]

Are you guys making it yourself or looking for partners to develop it.

 

[desimorty]

Are you guys making it yourself or looking for partners to develop it.

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/iaf-to-t...engine-drdo-chief.438008/page-2#ixzz4DfVfJREn

Both. The eventual goal is to have a variant of the Kaveri power the aircraft but AMCA will require a intermediate engine. Most likely F414 since HAL is buying lic production of the engine which will include the machines/tools required to manufacture finer crystal blades for the F414. Once this is done, HAL can use the same machines to eventually produce blades in large scale rather than labs as is now.
HAL has frozen domestication of Su-30MKI engines AFAIK in order to wait for T-50 engines. Meanwhile actively getting MoD to lobby US to sell F414 technology. THIS is big IF!
If the US does not offer high end technology like F414 production in India, India has strings to pull. Hence deals like US logistics. Even though modest. India is also a strategic location. But its just one consequence.
Either way. Good for India.

 

[Blue Marlin]

make your lifes easy india and go for the ge 414. its going on the lca mk2 and it on the amca would result in co-production and the manufacture of perishables.

you guys do know france will never sell their core tech right ?

 

[DesiGuy1403]

Well in Indian case the deal will.be that

either the entire work right from A,B,C all IP are held by India (as per RFP) and the party who enables us this is duly compensated in monetary terms
Or
The JV holds the joint rights but for helping in B and C requires research and metallurgical cost for the process.. so it has to be funded by India and they will "guide" us.. in order to make a proper working engine meeting our requirements..


Licence production is basically D option - al31 what we r doing for 30mki.. when we don knw anything at all..

Yes critical tech will be withhold unless we pay a price either for outright purchase plus the whole tot process/industrial side as well..


In our case, specifically kaveri case it will be just A, B and C only.

For any other case like GE414 or M88 or EJ 200 series it's Option D inly

If that is the case, we should keep building on the success of Kaveri.
Otherwise there is no guarantee that we won't be held hostage to global politics in future.

 

[Perpendicular]

If that is the case, we should keep building on the success of Kaveri.
Otherwise there is no guarantee that we won't be held hostage to global politics in future.

https://twitter.com/x/status/751005517175074816

 

[#hydra#]

AFAIK dry thrust is more important than wet thrust ,most of the time aircrafts will not be using the afterburner. So it's logical to go for ej200 variants for our new AMCA.
The proposed ej2x0 engine can deliver 78 KN and 120KN dry and wet thrust respectively,which is better than ge 414 engine. Also ej is way too lighter than ge counterpart and I don't have any clue on service life.
@Abingdonboy @PARIKRAMA @Ankit Kumar @GURU DUTT can tell authentically on this.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

AFAIK dry thrust is more important than wet thrust ,most of the time aircrafts will not be using the afterburner. So it's logical to go for ej200 variants for our new AMCA.
The proposed ej2x0 engine can deliver 78 KN and 120KN dry and wet thrust respectively,which is better than ge 414 engine. Also ej is way too lighter than ge counterpart and I don't have any clue on service life.
@Abingdonboy @PARIKRAMA @Ankit Kumar @GURU DUTT can tell authentically on this.

Not as technical till now , but the the specific thrust ( total net thrust of engine / total air intake ) , or the dry thrust is very important thing.And now a days they are a compromise between two extremes.

There are two general types of turbofan engines, low-bypass and high-bypass.

Coming to the term dry thrust , its just an engine fitted with afterburner but not lit.Other things which matter ( which didn't matter much in military aviation earlier are ) , Specific Fuel Consumption ,thermal and propulsive efficiency ,serviceability and Total flight hours , these things have become important as now we talk of saving costs, increasing availability and cutting down total operational costs.

Then there are things like overall efficiency of the system, the survivability of the material , the wear and tear of the system in wide range of temperatures at wide range of altitudes with varying payloads.

All these things matter if we are looking for a GE vs EJ thing here.

And these things are important, while selecting and then testing for our requirements. I am not in a position to say which of the two suit us better as of now.


Coming to the topic , the first thing is to be decided is that do we want a foreign components India assembled 5Th generation aircraft or an Indian 5Th generation fighter jet. Rest problems will be solved themselves.