IAF No Induction of Women

[paritosh]

Very right...However shouldn't this be a choice of women??? I am a software engg, and see so many women above 30 who are unmarried...What does that imply??? They have made a choice and want to move forward with career rather than getting involved in a family...Some are doing both...Anyways i have repeatedly said that here we are talking about national security and i don't give two hoots about gender equality(though i am sensitive about it)...however we should not be biased and reject just because the person even though well qualified is a women....we are missing on a significant talent pool just because of our pre-conceived notions...Don't you think so????

If my contract says that a women cannot be pregnant before this age and still women wants to join what does that imply??? On what grounds are we then rejecting them??

I am merely speaking from a medical perspective...if you happen to know a doctor...or are married...you'd know that the first child HAS to be before 30...to avoid complications...and there are many that may arise from a postponed impregnation...still we do see many women not adhering to that...it's an individual's choice...
same way people smoke and drink the world over...our lifestyle is a
b!cht...

No your are very right...We all know what happens...but again rejecting them because women are typically married at an early age is a lame excuse for me....If being married doesn't effect the effectiveness of a men fighter pilot how come it will effect the worthiness of a women fighter pilot??? Are we saying that women are too dumb to get pregnant even if they don't want???? or are we saying men are insensitive about their families and thus they don't care???

my brother's wife is an officer...and so is my girlfriend...trust me I know what I am talking about...
let us not mix performance variance with gender differences...
you can prove me wrong quite easily...as there have been better female pilots and infact women have equaled men in almost all fields...but the point remains that unless there is a dire need...we should indeed squeeze the most out of our flying cadets...handling women here is a tad messy...and as you'd agree the benefit of doubt always goes to the word of yore and what has been followed till the doubt arises...

and she has more will power to deal with it...We keep on forgetting that women's might be considered physically weak but they are emotionally for more stronger...Reminds me of OSHO...in one of his book he said a women can do any task that a men can do with 4 times more intensity....

nothing against the capabilities of women...just that if they are recruited surely a small percentage WOULD crib...WOULD suffer from family pressure....WOULD suffer from complications arising from a late pregnancy...

Now consider if we don't relax our required physical strength level for a women to be combat fit...complemented with all the other restrictions of getting pregnant and what not and still we get women who want to join IAF, IA, IN..just imagine the kind of motivation they have got and the potential

the physical benchmark standards for women serving are already reduced...
to finish this post off...I'd tell you something that I have realized and which you'd also realize if you happen to come in a prolonged contact of some pilot....they truly understand the value of the machine they are trained to fly..they know that the value of their life marginally exceeds the value of the machine they master...
somewhere I read that a lot of pilots lose precious seconds in cases of mechanical failure while trying to salvage control over their planes when they tend to question the real importance of their own survival versus the worthiness of the machine they try to save...and a lot many die in this freak state of confusion....I request you not to draw gender parallels here...and understand this from the point of view of the generals who value their machines with the same zest..

 

[dbc]

Death.By.Chocolate

Sorry Sir, I was quick, I just took 9 months, Oh now I know why it was ruthless.. 10 months lol!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You can't get anything right - can you? It is Mademoiselle not Sir! Nine months is a common misconception. Doctors or health care providers calculate due day from the first day of the last period this works out to ten months and not nine. I put in ten months as bait to test your mental faculty - you've been found wanting. This is my last response to you but before I write you off I’d like to congratulate you King suk on becoming the first person on my ignore list.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

But Please check out in what condition we recieved the dead body of our very own Ajay Ahuja from Pakistan. His body parts were cut, well I won't go any further. BTW I am not attacking Pakistan so please don't attack my post taken in that sense, It might be the same for the Pakistani soldier taken hostage.

A quick point on that. There was in fact no evidence that any Indian soldiers were tortured or mutilated after being captured by the PA during Kagil. Various Indian journalists and media pointed this out themselves.

The wounds on the dead bodies of Indian soldiers were consistent with wounds from a large caliber machine gun fire at close quarters.

The Indian journalists I mentioned in fact criticized the IA for spreading the 'torture story' to raise morale and move the nation solidly behind the IA's efforts in Kargil.

P.S: The Indian media also carried a story of the decapitated ******* head of a PA soldier on a stick in Kargil by the IA.

Anyway, back to topic.

 

[Trisonics]

The Indian Military needs to learn from its closet friend, Israel!!!

Video - Breaking News Videos from CNN.com

 

[garibnawaz]

A quick point on that. There was in fact no evidence that any Indian soldiers were tortured or mutilated after being captured by the PA during Kagil. Various Indian journalists and media pointed this out themselves.

The wounds on the dead bodies of Indian soldiers were consistent with wounds from a large caliber machine gun fire at close quarters.

Do a little research on Lt.Saurabh Kalia. If you cant find anything I will do the needful.

It will prove your abovec claims wrong.

besides Pakistan still holds number of Indian POW's. Some of them since 1971.

Pakistan never acknowledge this officially.

GB

 

[su-47]

Well, I have been following this thread for sometime. Here's my 2 cents

Facts:

1) In society, the woman's role is changing. In most countries, women are no longer expected to confine themselves to the kitchen, or be known as Mrs So and So. Rather women are expected to go out and make an identity for themselves, and contribute to society as working members. They do this well, in addition to being good mothers and wives.

2) Women have equalled men in most fields, from basic factory work to high flying CEOs. So their capability, ambition and determination are unquestionable.

3) Many armed forces these days have women serving in them as regular combatants, alongside the men. And again, these women have proven themselves to be as capable as their menfolk.

Now, I dont see anything wrong with allowing women into the IAF. Some members have expressed concerns like women being physically weaker, having periods, being pregnant and physical abuse. And these are valid concerns, but that deosnt mean they can't be addressed.

Firstly, being physically weaker. Yes it is a proven fact that men are, on average, stronger than women. But that doesnt mean every man is stronger than every woman. The air force has certain physical requirements. We dont need to take every woman who applies, but there are those who qualify the physical criteria. There are women who are as physically capable or more so than the men who currently serve in the air force.

The periods. Yeah its part of being a woman. But so far, it hasn't affected women's performance in other fields. Hell, it hasn't affected their performance in the army. Now, before someone goes on about g-forces and pressure in the higher atmosphere, just consider the air forces around the world who do have women pilots. These women seem to have the situation under control. So agin, this shouldn't be a problem.

Next, pregnancy. A female fighter pilot will know her carrer responsibilities would have planned this integral part of her family life. She can decide whether or not to have a child. Sure, a pregnancy would put her career on hold for a year or so, but remember, a fighter pilot usually serves for over 20 years. And not all female pilots are gonna get pregnant at The same time as to reduce a squadron's strength significantly at any one point of time.

lastly, the physical abuse issue. POWs have been known to be physically abused, not just here in the subcontinent, but the world over. The women who join the armed forces are well aware of this issue. They know that are likely to get raped should they become a POW. As such, dont you think there's more chance that these women will fiight to the death than surrender? Also, even male POWs are sexually abused sometime. And as one member mentioned previously, women get raped in major cities on a daily basis, even during daytime. But the people who use the rape issue to deny women military service conveniently ignore this issue.

I think its time we all wake up. Many air forces these days are inducting women pilots and they are performing their duties with the same efficiency as the men. If the best air force in the world, the USAF, are satisfied with women pilots, i dont see why IAF shouldnt be.

 

[r0ck]

The letters which shouldv'e been bold too, along with the rest of the line.

I've said it already on some other thread that women can, are and should be completely at par with men. I'm not a doctor but can certainly say that the decision to not allow women to be 'fighter' pilots has to have a meaning other than machoism and male-ego problems. I'm sorry, I really am, but enthusiasm or willingness just doesn't cut it when you're going for a fighter pilot program, I suppose there are a lot of other natural abilities and limitations to also take into account.

I totally wanted to ignore your post but then decided otherwise....I did not want to be rude especially when you have take so much time and pain to right all that....I hope you will understand my reluctance to post same thing again and again....so let me highlight your conclusion and ask vey specific question...



Very well said...Now can you please enlighten me any natural abilities/limitations that you are aware of??? The only reasons that are given are

- Physical weakness
- Bilogical Difference
- Sexual exploitation

Can you suggest me anything more than that???

I have already said so many times but let me repeat again..

- Physical weakness - Have the same physical test for men and women...Don't lower the bar for women...If someone qualify accept them....It would be lunatic of me to say that women are physically stronger than men...however it is equally lunatic to say women cannot compete with men on physical aspect and thus allow those who qualify as per your guidelines

- Bilogical Difference - Have a contract with them. You cannot get pregnant for 10-15 years or whatever as per your requirements...Leave the choice to women weather they want to give birth during their prime time or choose to serve the nation....

- Sexual explotation - Absurd logic...Women very well know what is at stake if they get caught...However as per geneva conventions any kind of torture to a POW is an international crime...

Your guess regarding the abilities and limitations are as good as mine, unless you're a doctor, that would make your guesses more likely to be the case than mine. You see the point I'm trying to make is that Armed Forces personnel can scrutinize a person much better than a physician, accountant, cook etc. And these people will always, always go for the best individuals when looking for 'fighter' pilots, without even caring for a dime about 'who' that individual is. If these people say that we can't go with women, then there could be a horde of reasons, but male-chauvinism and egoistic attitude is certainly not one of them. To say it is, quite frankly is foolish. That is the basis of assertion. The Armed Forces will never purposely hamper their 'fighter' pilot squad regardless of them being men or women. They will always go with the best individuals, and their guess on the topic would the best indulging point, regardless of what limitations or abilities anyone can come up with.

 

[Kinshuk]

Death.By.Chocolate


Lolll!! even i am amazed that someone ignored me... But I reconfirmed today, I took 9 monthss!! juz kidding..

Should have told me you are a miss, I bet you wouldn't ve ignored me...................

A good competitor always accept KO..

So I do, Yes I lost it, keep it simple and keep it kool.. Last reply to you aswell..

PS- Death by chocolate is a very common taste now. Try different variants like chocolate fantasy or the chocolate mountain

 

[Kinshuk]

A quick point on that. There was in fact no evidence that any Indian soldiers were tortured or mutilated after being captured by the PA during Kagil. Various Indian journalists and media pointed this out themselves.

The wounds on the dead bodies of Indian soldiers were consistent with wounds from a large caliber machine gun fire at close quarters.

The Indian journalists I mentioned in fact criticized the IA for spreading the 'torture story' to raise morale and move the nation solidly behind the IA's efforts in Kargil.

P.S: The Indian media also carried a story of the decapitated ******* head of a PA soldier on a stick in Kargil by the IA.

Anyway, back to topic.

I am sorry Sir but I was making a point and I just took that case as an example which I read somewhere. Now I don't want to feed that argument.

My objective was not to malign Pakistan, instead I was just basing a possibility that what if????

It can happen on Indian side aswell no doubt about it.

Thanks,
KS

 

[deckingraj]

The letters which shouldv'e been bold too, along with the rest of the line.

Your guess regarding the abilities and limitations are as good as mine, unless you're a doctor, that would make your guesses more likely to be the case than mine. You see the point I'm trying to make is that Armed Forces personnel can scrutinize a person much better than a physician, accountant, cook etc. And these people will always, always go for the best individuals when looking for 'fighter' pilots, without even caring for a dime about 'who' that individual is. If these people say that we can't go with women, then there could be a horde of reasons, but male-chauvinism and egoistic attitude is certainly not one of them. To say it is, quite frankly is foolish. That is the basis of assertion. The Armed Forces will never purposely hamper their 'fighter' pilot squad regardless of them being men or women. They will always go with the best individuals, and their guess on the topic would the best indulging point, regardless of what limitations or abilities anyone can come up with.

The bolded part especially the colored one is where you and I differ....This topic is very hot in India and there was a very interesting show on NDTV(hosted by burkha dutt)... Lot of people including our Ex-Air Chief, Military professionals were invited...Another interesting guest was a women fighter pilot of Israel...If possible do watch that show...

Let me brief you a little bit...

- Our Ex-General point was women being uncomfortable in the vicinity of Man...He gave an example saying that there is a very limited space inside of a tank where 3-4 people work together...If one of them is a women how uncomfortable that would be for women...His suggestion - have a women only battalion...and then slowly introduce them into the system(an idea scraped by others)

- Then came the discussion on where would you go for answering Nature's call when there are men around...blah blah...Burkha dutt was asked how did she manage when she was convering Kargil war...

- Somebody from Air-Force said that women will given them bull-**** excuses like they are having their periods and thus will miss trainings and what not...He also said i would be very uncomfortable if i have to put them on a night duty at a secluded place....His suggestion do not allow them because they will degrade the effectiveness of armed forces...

- Then there were 3 women IAF pilots(IAF do allow women for short periods on non-combat roles)..They were being de-comissioned as their service was over and they were vehementaly opposing it and were saying that when we have no problems about all the difficulties around and still perform as per expectations what the hell is other's problem

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Not a single so-called scientific reason in the whole damn show...Honestly all above reasons are nothing but our insecurity and age-old mentality that men are protector and women care taker....Not a single scientific reason that you are pointing out....Honestly read all the comments that people have put forward(if you have time) in this particualr thread or any where else on this topic and point me any scientific reason that you think can explain why women cannot play this role as effective as a man....


This was the most important part of the programe

- When this lady from Israel(now she has moved to India for good) was asked about her story...This is what she said

"I was very passionate about Air Force right from my childhood. When i grew up i had only one dream i.e. to fly a fighter jet. When i tried to enter the Air-Force my application was rejected even though i was fit enough. At this i sued the air-force and our country's supreme court passed an order that I cannot be rejected just because of my gender...and there opened the door for all women to join Air-Force if they are capable"...My suggestion to IAF would be open up before someone sue you becuase there is not a single scientific reasons which say's that a women cannot accomplish all those tasks that a men can....


P.S : if you still believe that its not the male chauvinism but some scientific reasons than i can't help. The only thing i would say is that a change is always difficult and thus many reasons are attributed to stop that change...Sathi pratha in india was a fact just 100 years back(even now some odd stories can be heard) however society changed though gradually... This attitude will also change and will change for good...

 

[paritosh]

- Somebody from Air-Force said that women will given them bull-**** excuses like they are having their periods and thus will miss trainings and what not...He also said i would be very uncomfortable if i have to put them on a night duty at a secluded place....His suggestion do not allow them because they will degrade the effectiveness of armed forces...
.

if you'd talk to women in the forces...they'd agree that it is an excuse that never seems to get exhausted...
and NDTV is very good channel...good that you watch it...

 

[r0ck]

The bolded part especially the colored one is where you and I differ....This topic is very hot in India and there was a very interesting show on NDTV(hosted by burkha dutt)... Lot of people including our Ex-Air Chief, Military professionals were invited...Another interesting guest was a women fighter pilot of Israel...If possible do watch that show...

Let me brief you a little bit...

- Our Ex-General point was women being uncomfortable in the vicinity of Man...He gave an example saying that there is a very limited space inside of a tank where 3-4 people work together...If one of them is a women how uncomfortable that would be for women...His suggestion - have a women only battalion...and then slowly introduce them into the system(an idea scraped by others)

- Then came the discussion on where would you go for answering Nature's call when there are men around...blah blah...Burkha dutt was asked how did she manage when she was convering Kargil war...

- Somebody from Air-Force said that women will given them bull-**** excuses like they are having their periods and thus will miss trainings and what not...He also said i would be very uncomfortable if i have to put them on a night duty at a secluded place....His suggestion do not allow them because they will degrade the effectiveness of armed forces...

- Then there were 3 women IAF pilots(IAF do allow women for short periods on non-combat roles)..They were being de-comissioned as their service was over and they were vehementaly opposing it and were saying that when we have no problems about all the difficulties around and still perform as per expectations what the hell is other's problem

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Not a single so-called scientific reason in the whole damn show...Honestly all above reasons are nothing but our insecurity and age-old mentality that men are protector and women care taker....Not a single scientific reason that you are pointing out....Honestly read all the comments that people have put forward(if you have time) in this particualr thread or any where else on this topic and point me any scientific reason that you think can explain why women cannot play this role as effective as a man....


This was the most important part of the programe

- When this lady from Israel(now she has moved to India for good) was asked about her story...This is what she said

"I was very passionate about Air Force right from my childhood. When i grew up i had only one dream i.e. to fly a fighter jet. When i tried to enter the Air-Force my application was rejected even though i was fit enough. At this i sued the air-force and our country's supreme court passed an order that I cannot be rejected just because of my gender...and there opened the door for all women to join Air-Force if they are capable"...My suggestion to IAF would be open up before someone sue you becuase there is not a single scientific reasons which say's that a women cannot accomplish all those tasks that a men can....


P.S : if you still believe that its not the male chauvinism but some scientific reasons than i can't help. The only thing i would say is that a change is always difficult and thus many reasons are attributed to stop that change...Sathi pratha in india was a fact just 100 years back(even now some odd stories can be heard) however society changed though gradually... This attitude will also change and will change for good...

Right I see your point. Your adamant that the reason for this decision is actually 'male supremacy' thinking. There are no scientific reasons whatsoever because of that 'one' show which aired on NDTV, and how this lady from Israel successfully joined the air force after she was rejected, by initiating a law suit against Israel's Air Force. Now I would also like you to review some of the back pages and see some 'actual' scientific reasons posted by other members, about the natural abilities of women and men. Though I can't confirm their authenticity nor comment as I ain't a doctor, but nonetheless they are provided. But what is the point of 'scientific' reasons only?

See you said that in that show the (ex)military men explained about problems not just scientific but natural and emotional as well. About how men can't work side by side with women. Now for instance, do you know what happens when you're standing shoulder to shoulder with a woman? Have a look at the following article:

1/3rd of Women in US Military Raped

This article is of 26 January 2010, not a by-gone era by any stretch of imagination, and I'll just post an extract of the article to delve your thinking about just 'one' of the problems that women are confronted within the Armed Forces:
An online discussion from a former soldier whose identity is being protected had this to say, “At least a rape ends. It’s the day-to-day degradation that eats at you. None of my friends who were raped on active duty reported it. Or if we tried, we were told to shut up for ‘morale.’ Working with your rapist on a daily basis isn’t a lot of fun, believe me.”
This is only just 1 of the problem and am sure any active duty 'woman' officer would have a quantum heap of issues that you, and I cannot even imagine. But even if that active duty 'woman' officer has no issues at all that does not mean in any way that every woman will have the same luck. You see the 'reality' is a lot different and the Armed Forces after witnessing first hand about 'individual' related problems definitely know a lot more. There is no 'scientific' only reason for this, I know it's a lot easier to say it is but there isn't.

I completely agree that this is totally unjust and unfair for the women but the under the 'reason' umbrella, there's a lot more that goes on. So if those 'reasons' were in the best interests of the Armed Forces why would they not opt for it. I still stand by my assertion about the BEST INTERESTS of the Armed Forces. These cannot be seconded by anything whether male/female, emotions, care, regards, feelings of security/insecurity. Hell the Armed Forces wouldn't even care if somebody has to get raped for their interests to be ascended. If the Armed Forces 'see' the gains they will opt for anyone. If they don't see any gains they wouldn't opt, it's just that simple. I completely agree that some countries do take women fighter pilots, and are happy to continue with them. We India/Pakistan have already in the past inducted women fighter pilots, and have decided not to continue with them, reasons could be known by someone in authority and are definitely not 'male superior to female' ideology. I suppose the Air chiefs or any Armed Forces commanding officer for that matter, is not a chest thumping, trash talking, street goon going by the ideology that men are superior to women. That is just awful to say, or to expect from any literate person least a highly respectable commanding officer who knows what could be meant by his words, and what those words could sound like to any enthusiastic and inspired individual, and what impact those words can leave on the serving military individuals.

 

[Valiant_Soul]

I suppose the Air chiefs or any Armed Forces commanding officer for that matter, is not a chest thumping, trash talking, street goon going by the ideology that men are superior to women. That is just awful to say, or to expect from any literate person least a highly respectable commanding officer who knows what could be meant by his words, and what those words could sound like to any enthusiastic and inspired individual, and what impact those words can leave on the serving military individuals.

Very valid points to make. I cannot understand why this is being seen as gender bias. Should IAF take women pilots just for the heck of it? Why do some people have to see men and women being the same when they are not? What is gender equality? Is it to have women do all things that men do or is it to create equal living conditions for both? People seriously need to understand the difference herein.

If it is simply to prove that there is no gender bias, then it is neither required nor necessary to interchange roles in such drastic manner. But if women are genuinely interested to focus on being a fighter pilot and they are willing to do whatever it takes and if IAF thinks that they are suitable in every manner, then it would be denying of individual rights to not give them the opportunity. Although being aware of where the world is heading with this "role reversal", I can say that these are not the right trends.

 

[Valiant_Soul]

Here are two interesting articles to read and some excerpts from them:

Female Fighter Pilots Forbidden

Women flying Pakistani F-7s are a very recent development, part of a program that only began six years ago. Pakistan is not alone using women as fighter pilots, with China graduating its first 16 female fighter pilots this year. There are already 52 women flying non-combat aircraft, and another 545 in training. India has female military pilots, who only operate helicopters and transports.

All this began with the success of female military pilots in the United States over the last three decades. This led to an increasing number of other countries are moving in that direction. The reason is simple, many of the women who go through flight training turn out to have better flying skills than the average male pilot.

All the nations considering female fighter pilots, are having a hard time keeping male pilots in uniform. Too many of the men depart for more lucrative, and less stressful, careers as commercial pilots. Women may not be the solution. Currently, only about half of Indian female officers stay in past their initial five year contract. Indian women, even military pilots, are under tremendous social and family pressure to marry. Those that do may still be pilots, but married women expected to have children. The Indian Air Force provides its female officers with ten months leave for this, six months during pregnancy, and four months after delivery. The air force does all this because pilots are very expensive to train.

Many women are willing to take up the challenge. But they have already heard from their peers in Western air force, that motherhood and piloting can be a very exhausting combination.

Several American female combat pilots have achieved command positions, and also managed to handle marriage and motherhood as well.

The Indian Air Force on Tuesday said it was planning to have women fighter pilots in future, but they will be inducted with a pre-condition of not bearing children till a certain age.

When asked about the Pakistan Air Force having inducted women in their fighter stream, Barbora said, "a week ago, a senior dignitary of their air force met a senior dignitary of IAF and said that we had recruited seven of them (women fighter pilots), but only one is remaining in the fighter stream." Citing examples of the Israeli and US air forces, where women have been operating as fighter pilots for quite some time now, he said "there also women pilots are not exposed to direct combat." At present, around 500 women officers are serving in all the branches of the Force other than the fighter stream.