IAF No Induction of Women

[ambidex]

Respected Lady,

Flying is not about whether the pilot is a man or a woman. It is about the results of the actions imposed by the pilot and the responses returned by the aircraft. The aircraft does not know or understand gender. It only knows the difference in a true pilot, and one who was perhaps not meant to fly.

You are pouring in your personal opinion here about marriage etc. Now anyone can assume why you just don't want to agree on some balance for sake of discussion.

The most/few examples you referring to were great ladies with extraordinary capabilities.

I think here we are talking about something required in bulk, not less abundant extraordinary or rare especially when at war. If women's liberty has been unchallenged in Aviation as per your examples then why a women need men's help and should whinge about being relegated. Why the same women you are referring to with great skills were not able to institutionalized women as a mandatory team mate with premium front line fighter pilots.

When a thundering jet throws a challenge many men may respond back.

When a thundering jet throws a challenge few women may respond back.

Let the jet decide and till date jets have been deciding that women perhaps may not meant to fly (when jets reject a person not gender). Other wise nations with greater liberties for women would have been setting an examples for countries like India.

Furthermore symbolic and practical are not synonyms.


If a woman wants to fly, first of all she must, of course, abandon skirts and don a Knickerbocker uniform.
— Harriet Quimby, first lady in the U.S. to receive a pilots license, 1911

 

[DaRk WaVe]

3)cutting 9Gs is sickening...for both the genders...but when a lady is down...she'd have more to deal with...

Negative G maneuver at 1:00

If a woman wants to fly, first of all she must, of course, abandon skirts and don a Knickerbocker uniform.
— Harriet Quimby, first lady in the U.S. to receive a pilots license, 1911

there are women who are ready to do that & there are who have done it, Where is Flying Eagle, She'll tell you

 

[FlyingEagle]

What the hell they think of themselves........In flying a fighter what concern with skirt and knickerbocker? come on argu with strong base. All the concerned with sex, just leave this fourm and join some bolywood masala forum. If one want to talk just talk on rational basis. First change ur mind and broad ur views.
Emo no need to reply to a mentally sick person who's thinking remains inbetween neck and knees. They are unable to think something else. All the problems that they are pointing are only lame excuses bcoz they don't have any rational reason. Explaining a little abt the problems they always mentioned:

1. Pragnency: Its not a viral attack, Its only whether she want or not
2. Periods: Go and contact some doc abt its controll. You will get answer.
3. How much u selfish ppl expect from a lady.....she serve the country, produce ur babies and Waiting for someone who will reply that "first cook my food, wash my clothes, polish my shoes and then go to ur base."

We are here to find some solution, "Why females are not capaable for flying fighters" If one has some strong reason just post it and I assure u I'll change my point of view. But plz if some want masala leave it.

 

[DaRk WaVe]

I wanted you to explode

First they wanted examples i gave 'em examples & then again as always they are down to same old f u c k i n g pregnancy, rape, torture, sexual embarrassment & harrasment.........

so much for been a woman, we give birth to them & see what they have got for us

even the 'so called ancient' Spartans were better than you people, They honored two kinds of people
1) Soldier who died in war
2) A woman who died giving birth
But here giving birth is a God Damn weakness

you ought to be a reproduction machine, so much for the god damn 21st Century
you all have just proved the worth of a woman its nothing more than a sex slave & a man serving machine, People who on other threads explained their open mindedness & their secularism are here to explain the 'social taboos'

 

[FlyingEagle]

@ Emo, was in que. ur posts were fantastic but jisy ni samjna ni samjy ga. Ya they need doctors only but I'm happy with that atleast in this respect they r unable to say that "The male docs and cadets have some problem with these beauties. All ***** is going out of controll..."

 

[FlyingEagle]

Now give all kinds of 'titles' & call me by whatever names u want

No one is allowed to do this according to the fourm rules

 

[dbc]

If you have problem understanding then first litrerate yourself. Pregnancy issue is just one of them. Please be advised India also has many social problems, also our culture is different from that of west. If a women gets pregnant then there is no alternative, they will be granted maternity leave for the time being, but after having a child, its not like western world that you can expect someone else to look after him/her. I very clearly mentioned it takes millions of dollars to train a pilot, and if his or her services are not utilised to the fullest level then its a lame investment.

bold part.

Ohhh! no I didn't do anything ruthless to my mother. I didn't rape her, I didn't beat her, I didn't play any rampage over her.

Talk sense next time..

And if you are happy just getting thanked from many of your mates then please don't bother to reply me again, as I won't bother to read it, if sense less.

My bad, I didn't realize I was talking to a child, you probably still remember the comforts of your mother’s womb. But what you don't know is the ordeal your mother endured for ten months to bring you into this world. There is a reason why men are not the bearer of babies, had that been the case the human race surely would have become extinct a long time ago.

 

[dbc]

"The two things that bring me (or any other fighter pilot) safely home from missions every day are my knowledge of the aircraft and my ability to physically execute the necessary tactics -- my gender, race, religion, etc. have nothing to do with it." - Capt. Jammie Jamieson first combat-ready woman fighter pilot to qualify for the F-22A Raptor

 

[dbc]

Female airmen deadly in Iraq, Afghanistan
A small cadre of women prove their mettle in combat
By Patrick Winn - Staff writer
Posted : Sunday Jan 13, 2008 14:21:26 EST


Their numbers are few. Their profile is small. But few groups of women have proven more deadly or destructive than Air Force women flying and fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Defense Department restrictions prohibit all services from placing women in direct ground combat. But Air Force women have been cleared to fight from the air in fighter jets, bombers and gunships since the mid-1990s. The current wars have been a proving ground of sorts for Air Force women in extended combat roles, dispelling any old-fashioned notion that women lack the skills to kill.

Female fighters, like their male counterparts, have also paid with their lives. Five Air Force women have died in the two wars. All told, the two wars have claimed the lives of 104 female service members, according to the Defense Department.

Air Force women with combat-centric careers describe a straight-up meritocracy — not a boys’ club — where gender fades away and respect is pegged to performance. Women remain a marginal presence in these jobs, although their numbers have increased since the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks.

“If you’re new to the system, you prove yourself whether you’re male or female,” said Master Sgt. Kimberly Sulipeck, who has flown an estimated 450 hours on AC-130H gunships in Afghanistan.

As a sensor operator, she’s targeted and eliminated more than 150 enemy combatants, according to her bio. “I’m just one of the guys,” Sulipeck said.

“You do your job, do it right, and that’s the way it goes.”

And she’s not the only one with a story to tell.

ANGEL OF DEATH
Her gunship cruised low and loud over northeastern Afghanistan, a mix of milkshake-brown flatlands, grassy valleys and boulder-strewn mountain slopes. On Capt. Allison Black’s monitor aboard an AC-130H Spectre, the region below was a flickering sea of night-vision green.

It was mid-November 2001. As an evaluator-navigator with the Air Force’s 1st Special Operations Group, Black was plotting routes, communicating with ground forces and identifying targets in the darkness below. Just days before, the Afghan capital of Kabul had fallen to light-and-lean Special Forces teams relying on Air Force fighter jet and gunship strikes. They were aided with intelligence from the Northern Alliance — Afghans with their own vendetta against the Taliban.

Now the target was a smallish province along the northern border. Bearded American soldiers, relying on the Northern Alliance’s knowledge of local terrain and Taliban habits, were moving covertly through the surrounding hills on horseback.

For weeks, the Army detachment had lived with Northern Alliance Gen. Abdul Rashid Dostum, a hulking and prickly haired war veteran thrilled to watch American air power cripple his Taliban foes.

Just 16 hours after Black landed at Karshi-Kanabad Air Base in neighboring Uzbekistan, she had been shuttled to her first-ever combat mission. It was off to a choppy start. Although the crew had successfully destroyed a bank of rocket launchers and several Taliban trucks, they were forced to evade anti-aircraft fire that pelted the Spectre’s steel belly.

“All they needed was a high-caliber [anti-aircraft] system to present a problem,” Black said. “We were definitely on edge.”

Dented but intact, the gunship flew on. Operational Detachment Alpha 595, from the Army’s 5th Special Forces Group, lit up Black’s radio as her plane neared its encampment. With Dostum’s help, the troops had learned of a nearby safe house packed with more than 200 Taliban and al-Qaida fighters.

Black began to chart the course. When her voice crackled over the soldiers’ field radios, Dostum was delightedly incredulous. A woman? Sent to kill the Taliban? “He couldn’t believe it,” Black said. “He thought it was the funniest thing.”

The Spectre neared and its cannons erupted. Unaccustomed to the Gatling gun’s mechanized snarl, the fighters confused the airstrike with a ground assault. Militants scattered into the fields, seeking cover in ditches and vehicles, although Black could see their heat-signature silhouettes from her console by the cockpit.

Dostum, hidden with the Army detachment several miles away, said the Taliban also believed a high-powered laser pointer used by Spectre operators to identify ground targets — a “sparkle,” in Air Force spec ops speak — was a death ray that turned everything it touched to flames.

As the hailstorm of munitions continued, Dostum grabbed his walkie-talkie, switched to the Taliban’s unsecured frequency and relayed to them the sound of Black’s chatter coming through Army radio.

He used the female pilot’s voice to taunt them as they bled.

“He said, ‘America is so determined, they bring their women to kill the Taliban. You’re so pathetic,’” Black said. “‘It’s the angel of death raining fire upon you.’” After circling the safe house environs many times — striking militants after they’d regroup in threes and fours — the Spectre had just enough fuel to return to Uzbekistan. The crew had expended all of its ammunition: 400 rounds of 40mm cannon shot and 100 rounds of 105mm Howitzer rounds. Black contacted an incoming gunship sent to finish off the remaining militants with a fresh load of ammo.

In those few hours, Black had become the first female AC-130H navigator to shoot in combat. Six years later, she’s a combat-medal-wearing mother to two sons, ages 6 months and 2 years, and she expects to return to Afghanistan in early 2008. She estimates the total number of human targets eliminated on that first tour at more than 250 enemies.

“I’m so proud to represent women, and proud to represent the gunship community, but it’s very humbling,” she said. “Here I am, Captain Black, getting all this attention for something myself and 12 other folks did.”

Although her gender was used to rile the Taliban, Black said it’s never proven a liability with her crew. “I never have to worry about it,” she said. “Everybody I care about knows who I am. They know what Allison Black is about.”

SHOCK AND AWE
Seen from the glorious heights of Maj. Melissa May’s F-16 cockpit, Baghdad fell beautifully.

It was nighttime and the exploding artillery burst and glowed like a fireworks display.

“It was the whole ground war,” she said. “But way up there, it was serene and quiet.”

These were Operation Iraqi Freedom’s early days, before Saddam Hussein’s anti-air capabilities were fully known. May’s three-month deployment to Prince Sultan Air Base in Saudi Arabia was slated to end in January 2003. But her tour was extended indefinitely.

With the rest of America, she and others in the 14th Fighter Squadron restlessly watched the buildup to war on cable news.

“There was a sense of excitement ... and a fear of the unknown,” said May, a 1995 Air Force Academy graduate. “Now, we’re going to cross that line into Baghdad. So are they going to shoot at us? Are there things we don’t know about?” May, whose call sign SHOCK — or “Scarlet-Headed Ovulating Commie Killer” — hints at her strawberry-blond curls, finally got orders to cross the southern Iraqi no-fly zone in April. The Army was penetrating the city, which was ringed with Saddam’s surface-to-air missile sites. May’s four-ship formation would hit the sites with slender, supersonic AGM-88 anti-radiation missiles, allowing bomber jets to strike Baghdad safely.

“Usually, I’d go out to the jets with my wingman, telling jokes in the van,” she said. “You just say, ‘See you, dude. Don’t suck!’ But there was a different feel that night. We were going into Baghdad.”

That night, her mission went down without a hitch. But days later, her fourth combat mission was marred by blinding weather and a hit from an Iraqi missile.

May and her four-ship, with a bomber formation, had just taken out several missile sites when they received time-sensitive intelligence from an Airborne Warning and Control Systems surveillance jet.

The F-16s were asked to hit mobile, Soviet-made surface-to-air missile launchers. Flying through a wall of thick storm clouds, which limited visibility from 5,000 to 40,000 feet, May’s crew broke from the larger strike package and veered toward Baghdad.

“The weather was still horrible,” said May. “We couldn’t get below or above it.”

As one of the F-16s dipped to bomb the site, an Iraqi launcher nailed it with a Roland missile. The pilot expelled his external fuel tanks — a measure to drop weight and increase maneuverability — and performed a series of countermeasures to dodge more strikes.

“There we were, in the weather and getting shot at,” May said. “And, after dropping his tanks, he was low on gas.”

The four-ship departed for Prince Sultan Air Base with all of its weapons dropped. For that mission, May and her fellow fighter pilots received the Distinguished Flying Cross.

She left Iraq in April 2003. Two years later, while stationed at Luke Air Force Base, Ariz., May and five other female fighter pilots established an alliance known as the “Chick Fighter Pilot Association.” Although it began as an inside joke — and an excuse to round up female fighters each year for a big night out — they may have inadvertently formed the world’s most lethal sisterhood.

Shock, Gunna, Trix, Thumper, Torch, Pinball and the other dozen or so pilots who keep in touch through the group probably wouldn’t describe it in such bang-up terms. “It’s just a joke,” May said. “It’s an excuse to bring a bunch of chick fighter pilots together ... and offer a little mentorship. There just aren’t that many senior female fighter pilots out there.”

IN THE TURRET
Of the Air Force jobs with combat exposure, only elite special operations positions require more outside-the-wire bullet-ducking and M4-toting than Security Forces.

And it just happens to be a career filled with women, who account for nearly 16 percent of the more than 24,150 enlisted Security Forces airmen.

Staff Sgt. Summer Everts-Kunard, a Texas-raised 29-year-old, enlisted specifically to join Security Forces and make herself a more attractive candidate for the Federal Bureau of Investigation or Central Intelligence Agency. She wanted to carry guns, conduct searches and learn police techniques.

During a six-month tour with 149th Security Forces that started in February, she patrolled the perimeter of Iraq’s Kirkuk Air Base in a Humvee turret with a .50-caliber machine gun. She took cover as mortars rained down 30 meters in front of her. And whenever jobs took place outside the wire — such as a construction project — she locked and loaded with her fellow airmen when suspicious vehicles veered too close.

“This work is right up my alley,” Everts-Kunard said. “My dad didn’t treat me like a fragile girl growing up. I grew up working outside.”

Everts-Kunard was the only woman on her quick-reaction force, but even the Security Forces countersniper team contained women. Seeing women in the .50-cal turret gun seat was common, she said. Still, according to Defense Department regulations, women are barred from combat.

“I wouldn’t want anyone in any Air Force career field to lower the bar for women,” Everts-Kunard said. “But people have evolved to understand what we can do. Just hold everybody to one standard. If women can’t do it, we can’t do it.”

ALL BUT ONE BOMB
High above Afghanistan, in the cockpit of a B-1B Lancer, co-pilot Capt. Kate Hamilton worked to save men she could not see.

Roughly an hour into the mission earlier this year, ground control dispatched Hamilton and her four-person crew to a compound where an Army unit and an Air Force joint terminal attack controller were taking fire. They steered the long-nosed bomber toward the transmitted coordinates, and soon the JTAC’s voice filled the cabin.

This was Hamilton’s first combat experience, kicking off early in her January deployment supporting operations in Iraq and Afghanistan for six months. She had been an Air Force Academy junior in 2001 when the Afghanistan-harbored al-Qaida network struck the U.S. “We tried to get there as quickly as we could to put bombs on target, just to alleviate some of the fire they were taking,” Hamilton said.

Inside the B-1B, the Americans weren’t sure of the militant force’s size. They only knew that, for the guys on the ground, the assault was nearing. The JTAC, Hamilton said, “was one of the most ballsy guys I’d talked to. He kept initiating fights with bad guys to figure out their locations.”

Then, through the radio hiss, they heard the punctuated sound of rifle fire.

“We all sat up straighter in our seats,” Hamilton said. She tried to cool her nerves, to pace her actions. Don’t rush this, she told herself.

The B-1B helped back down the insurgents for more than eight hours. The air crew veered off several times to refuel and returned to spill more rivulets of bombs.

“We kept doing run after run after run.”

As the fighting peaked, medics poised to recover soldiers from the compound were told to bring extra body bags. But later, Hamilton and her crew heard that “every single guy in the unit was coming home alive because we helped support them,” she said.

The Lancer, an aircraft that boasts the largest bomb-carrying capacity of any Air Force jet, left the area with only one bomb undropped.



Female airmen deadly in Iraq, Afghanistan - Air Force News, news from Iraq - Air Force Times

 

[Kansu]

To be honest i never argue with ladies except my mother and the lady who holds my heart in her palms.
but there is one thing. i hate the manner of eastern ladies towards men. they always say they want to be equal, they want to be 0.5 of 1 may be even more... but when you agree on this they start complaining.
As an example, imagine a Turkish girl you went to shop together and she is your wife. You bought a few things and your burden is heavy. when you say ''we need to carry this together'' she starts complaining and tells the love of Leyla and Mecnun...
So what does an eastern lady want? To be equal(?!) like western ladies in every part of social-economical life? or To be the Leyla of Mecnun?
This is a defence forum but we discuss about men-women affairs.

i have a sister, she works in a university but i would want her to be a pilot and i m honest with this. but training a pilot is something very difficult and costly. And being a pilot is not enough. you need to have capability to take immediate decisions at unexpected moments. The place of a lady is my heart and my shoulders. A lady is my crown, i carry her on my head. but there are things a woman cant do. which are against her nature. so please dont simplify the position of our women with putting them in to the same basket with men...

 

[albwd]

"The two things that bring me (or any other fighter pilot) safely home from missions every day are my knowledge of the aircraft and my ability to physically execute the necessary tactics -- my gender, race, religion, etc. have nothing to do with it." - Capt. Jammie Jamieson first combat-ready woman fighter pilot to qualify for the F-22A Raptor

Well, you have been in luck. You've never faced Chinese. Many of our pilots probably can't control the urge to ram our craft into your F22's.

Female pilots maybe useful in an inter-glactic war. But until then when potential warfare is comfined to homosapients themselves, I don't support induction of Women in armed forces.

 

[Skeptic]

As long as the Women qualify the physical requirements for the post - I don't see how they are in anyways inferior to men in fighter jets. If they were fit enough for the rigours of the training - They will perform equally if not better in actual scenarios.

Pregnancy is a non issue. It is a choice pilot will need to take. It is again generalization to assume that every female will have the same priority in which tending to baby and cooking food are on top. if the individual wants to have it her way - not only approve - I'd say encourage her.

Rape - I understand the physical pain inflicted by enemy can be bad - but why Rape has to be an embarrassment for the lady?? Leave alone a battle hardened and trained fighter pilot, even for a common Jane - it should not be a matter of embarrassment.I hope I word my feelings correctly - but are we not supposed to be embarrassed about something we did wrong? No women wants to be Raped - emotionally it should be as bad as getting a sound beating. It is us - the society surrounding the person which makes her feel embarrassed and humiliated.

Reasons I think why females as fighter pilots should be encouraged:
1. The ladies who opt for the contract must be very driven by their passion. Chances are they will be in with higher motivation.

2. We might be missing out on a vast talent pool. How many prospective great pilots might simply not be eligible to fly.

3. With such high passion and motivation - chances of them moving into more lucrative commercial planes would be lower.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[DaRk WaVe]

you people are hopeless & have made up your mind that women can't do it, I mean the people who handed over a 150 Million Dollar plane to a women are mad & those examples from history & long article from USAF is all BS???

they are dieing for their country & you people are here talking about pregnancy & rape been the 'reasons'

Record Number of Female Soldiers Fall​

By Molly M. Ginty
WeNews correspondent
Sunday, March 20, 2005

Sunday marked the second anniversary of the date when U.S. forces entered Iraq. With 240 female U.S. soldiers injured and 33 killed so far in Iraq and Afghanistan, some military analysts are calling for a review of U.S. policy on women in combat.

(WOMENSENEWS)--It struck Lori Piestewa of Tuba City, Ariz. when her Humvee crashed and she was captured in Nasiriyah, Iraq.

It hit Pamela Osbourne of Fort Hood, Texas, when a bomb targeted her camp in southern Baghdad.

It struck Kimberly Voelz of Carlisle, Pa., when she was defusing explosives in the town of al-Iskandariyah.

Death has claimed a record number of female soldiers serving in the U.S. military in the current conflicts in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Despite rules that have prohibited women from fighting on the front lines, female soldiers in these conflicts are facing virtually the same risks as men because of the nature of these missions and because of overall troop shortages in Iraq, some military analysts say. In light of this--and in response to charges that the military has failed to adequately protect its female soldiers
--the House Armed Services Committee is preparing a report on the feasibility of assigning women to combat-related positions.

The forthcoming report--due this spring--has stirred debate on how female soldiers should serve alongside men and whether the military can and should uphold rules meant to minimize women's risks.

"These rules no longer make sense because no place is safe in Iraq," said former Congressional Rep. Pat Schroeder, D-Colo., who served on the House Armed Services Committee from 1973 to 1996. "The whole place is literally a front line."

Record Number of Injuries, Fatalities


According to U.S. military records, 33 female soldiers--three in Afghanistan and 30 in Iraq--have been killed since operations started in Afghanistan in 2001 and Iraq in 2003.

In addition, 240 women have sustained combat-related wounds in Iraq and Afghanistan. Left with permanent injuries that have sometimes required amputation, most of these women--like those killed--were struck by bombs that hit transport units or camps with no warning.

"We don't track the number of women soldiers wounded by U.S. forces in friendly fire," said Army spokesperson Lt. Colonel Bryan Hilferty. "But these accidents don't happen often."

The death and injury toll for female soldiers in the current conflicts shatters previous records for women serving in positions that are also shared by men. In the Gulf War--the first major conflict where women soldiers served alongside male soldiers--216,000 women were enlisted and 16 were killed. In Iraq and Afghanistan, only 17,000 female soldiers are enlisted. But their deaths account for 33 of the 1,000 estimated fatalities among servicewomen in U.S. history. To date, nearly all of these fatalities have been among female nurses and support staff.

"Having this many female casualties in uniform is certainly new," said Michael O'Hanlon, a military analyst for The Brookings Institution in Washington. "It has made this policy debate more visible and more visceral."

Women More Active in Military


Historians estimate that only 20,000 American women have fought in battle since Margaret Corbin hoisted her petticoats and took charge of a canon after her husband fell in the Revolutionary War.

Since the creation of the Army Nurse Corps in 1901, women have been employed directly by the military. But until recent decades, most have served as nurses and support staff. That started to change in the Korean War during the early 1950s, when the military began accepting women for active duty.

In 1992 the Air Force began allowing female pilots to fly in some combat missions. In 1993 the Navy started allowing women to serve on combat ships. In 1994 the Army dropped a rule prohibiting women from filling positions with a "substantial risk of capture." These changes opened up 90 percent of military jobs to women for the first time.

"From this point onward, women were not only trained to use arms, but could also fire them on the job," said retired Air Force Capt. Barbara Wilson, founder of Military Women Veterans in St. Augustine, Fla.

Today, female soldiers take infantry training alongside their male companions, learning how to fire assault weapons and move under direct and indirect fire. Accounting for 15 percent of all service people and 10 percent of soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan, women work as engineers, truck drivers, pilots and weapons experts.

Two prohibitions hold female troops back from full parity. They are barred from positions that involve direct combat (such as serving on submarines, in the Special Forces and in infantry, armor and artillery positions). They are also barred from "collocated units" that support combat troops. A woman can serve as a medic, for instance, but not as a medic in a unit that "collocates" or supports a unit on the front line.

Allegations Against Army


The Army is covertly violating its collocation rule and assigning women to units that support front-line troops, says Elaine Donnelley, president of the Center for Military Readiness, a public policy organization in Livonia, Mich. Donnelley contends this is because commanders are failing to follow established regulations and because an overall male troop shortage means there is a lack of adequate male troops in Iraq.

Last year, in response to a petition Donnelly sent to President Bush and the Pentagon, Army Secretary Francis Harvey ordered a systematic review of Army regulations and asserted that current policies keeping women out of combat and collocated units will stand.

But last month, under continued pressure from Donnelley and other critics, the chair of the House Armed Services Committee ordered an investigation into whether collocated units in Iraq violate Pentagon regulations against same-sex service.

"This is a serious question and we hope to have an answer soon," said Committee Chair Rep. Duncan Hunter, R-Calif.

While waiting for the release of this report, expected this spring, the Army maintains that is upholding established policy. "We're not violating the collocation rule," Hilferty told Women's eNews. "We are conforming with 1994 regulations, and any changes to that policy will be coordinated with Congress as required by law."

Are Women Fit for Combat?


According to a 2001 Gallup poll, the U.S. public is split on whether women should fight on the battlefield, with a slim majority supporting the assignment of women to ground combat.

As the debate on women in combat continues, the Bush administration has not set a firm date for withdrawing from Iraq. Retired Lt. Gen. Claudia J. Kennedy, the highest-ranking woman to ever serve in the Army, predicts that as the conflict continues, more female soldiers will be called up for active duty. She notes that military recruiting is down by 27 percent, and estimates that 30,000 to 50,000 more soldiers may be needed in Iraq.

"Regardless of whether the military changes its policy on women in combat, we need to honor the women who are serving in this conflict," says Kennedy. "Willing to step outside traditional roles and answer their country's call, they are vital to this mission and should not be segregated. Women soldiers deserve to be treated just as all soldiers should be treated--properly trained, properly equipped and given the proper respect."

 

[Valiant_Soul]

Overwhelming emotions! There are a few points that I would also like to make. A basic understanding of some of which (or lack of it) is going to shape our world in the time ahead.

It is good that we are changing into a society where women are diversifying their skills and areas of interests. It is a mark of a free society. But it is not only that women are changing, men are changing as well. There are common basic traits that is in the very nature of every person, whether man or woman, and those can be classified broadly into feminine and masculine traits. Traits such as sensitivity, emotional attachment, forgiveness, humility, etc are feminine traits. And traits such as courage, compassion, determination, etc are masculine traits. In an ideal situation, a woman has balanced her nature, if she imbibes more feminine traits and less masculine traits. In the same manner, a man has balanced his nature if he has more masculine traits and less (but requisite) feminine traits.

What has unfortunately happened to our world (and I totally blame men for that) is that men found that it is more convenient to carry feminine traits than masculine traits, so they changed. In that process, when they should have remained alleviated of emotions most of the time, they weakened themselves. Thus they lost their sense of justice and demeaned women in the process. Women had to retaliate and they thought if they prove themselves in the field of men (which they have) they would get their due respect.

Now in this process, men and women have "forgotten" that they have different roles to play in this world, because of course, they are different, otherwise you would have seen women against men in football, in cricket, in wrestling or in army exercises. And men in maternity wards. Men, in general, cannot take the role of women and women in general cannot take the role of men. By this I do not mean that exceptions should not be accepted.

I have no respect for men who relinquish their sense of justice for emotional attachment or indulge in cowardly acts. Same way I have no respect for women, who just for proving herself to the world, leaves her natural and more critical roles behind. But if it is something to do with compulsion or unavoidable situation, then I totally understand.

Women binds the entire social fabric together because of their feminine traits. If they let go of that, the world will become a very cold place.

@Topic
We need to look at this issue from the point of view of IAF. It is their particular consideration that they do not deem feasible that their trained fighter pilot (upon whom enormous amount of money and resources is spent to turn them into fighter pilots) may not be available on crucial times because of very genuine reason of maternity leave and may be even after that, as still in our societies mother's are both emotionally enthusiast and obliged to look after the upbringing of their children and spend most of the time with them. Father's do not play such a major role (and I truly believe they cannot) in the early days of a child. The social demographic of India is different from that of western countries. Here mothers usually do not leave behind their children to nannies.

Furthermore, IAF cannot propose any sort of punitive action for getting pregnant in the course of the service, because you cannot punish a woman for getting pregnant, that would be very inhuman. So talk of pe-conditions is totally irrelevant. They would either have to decide to recruit them or not to recruit them. The decision, whether it is for or not, should not be looked upon as being gender biased.

 

[deckingraj]

even if the "stringent standards" are put in place...i am very sure that many would join and crib later...
sample this...

As always great points...Let me reply back

1)females need to have their first child by the age of 30...the age when they'd still be learning...and very much required to report on duty...

Very right...However shouldn't this be a choice of women??? I am a software engg, and see so many women above 30 who are unmarried...What does that imply??? They have made a choice and want to move forward with career rather than getting involved in a family...Some are doing both...Anyways i have repeatedly said that here we are talking about national security and i don't give two hoots about gender equality(though i am sensitive about it)...however we should not be biased and reject just because the person even though well qualified is a women....we are missing on a significant talent pool just because of our pre-conceived notions...Don't you think so????

If my contract says that a women cannot be pregnant before this age and still women wants to join what does that imply??? On what grounds are we then rejecting them??

2)females need to get married early in India...late marriage is considered a social taboo...now i dont want a debate on this...but we all know this happens...

No your are very right...We all know what happens...but again rejecting them because women are typically married at an early age is a lame excuse for me....If being married doesn't effect the effectiveness of a men fighter pilot how come it will effect the worthiness of a women fighter pilot??? Are we saying that women are too dumb to get pregnant even if they don't want???? or are we saying men are insensitive about their families and thus they don't care???

3)cutting 9Gs is sickening...for both the genders...but when a lady is down...she'd have more to deal with..

and she has more will power to deal with it...We keep on forgetting that women's might be considered physically weak but they are emotionally for more stronger...Reminds me of OSHO...in one of his book he said a women can do any task that a men can do with 4 times more intensity....


Now consider if we don't relax our required physical strength level for a women to be combat fit...complemented with all the other restrictions of getting pregnant and what not and still we get women who want to join IAF, IA, IN..just imagine the kind of motivation they have got and the potential....With all this in mind please tell where you think is your objections/concerns...

I am a tad skeptical about females being made fighter pilots...wastes tax payers money...and I am not ok with that...it's alright if they fly transports and choppers...
and I definitely don't question their skill at all...just that the points i raised matter.

Lets c what you have to say about my understandings on the valid issues that you have raised...