IAF may not get to fly LCA before 2010

[ajaybhutani]

Well lets see now JF-17 has an airframe which is if not all is influnced by the F-16 which is an unstable design it self, according to my sources thunder has better turn rates then F-16 at subsonic speed besides that my entire family is in PAF and i take there word for it when they say that the JF-17 has 30% composites on it which in turn has been done to increase its speed from the current Mach 1.8 to Mach 2....now as far as JF-17 not being an unstable design plz show me some proof becoz that has been proved wrong several times..

"statically unstable" is the term used to refer to airframe which cannot remain stable when they are static ,if you dont move at least some of the controlling surfaces.. its disadvantage - the pilot is not nough to control the airframes control surfaces .. you needs a FBW constantly calculating what to move when to keep the plane back in its place..( give an interface to the pilot that behaves just like if it was a stable airframe ) and such a FBW take years of development millions of dollars and expertise.. i.e. higher cost..
advantage.. since the plane is itself unstable.. its more much more agile..

F16 was one of the first few planes which were statically unstable.. so it flew with the full fbw from the first flight.. ( and of course no mechanical backups)..
and so does LCA..
now for JF17 we all know the first few plane flew without FBW and its supposed to have FBW with mechanical backup( a mechanical backup is of no use in a statically stable plane).. its not statically stable.

about composites.. please send out a credible links stating the composite content of the plane..

Well if LCA is so good then why did ur IAF chief support introducing old mig's to counter the F-16 deal rather then introducing the LCA which accourding to u surpasses the MIg and F-16 series..?????

IAF cheif wants the planes fast as IAF nos are going down.. and LCA is not coming that fast.. with current schedule of LCA and production no's of 200 IAF sees a new shortage of 126 planes its its fleet and so the plan for MRCA .. now since MRCA is getting delayed cheif wants some more migs and m2k's ( as there are no extra induction costs .. we know both the planes).. even second hand as a short term replacement.

Sorry to disappoint u but IAF never saw ur saw called spark to me it was a short curcit that IAF totally lost confidence in this jet cause of the long time it took and every time it came out with a new issue...

and thats why IAF still plans to induct 200 of LCA's.

Plz i dont want u to tell me abot GE404 engine's since this engine is also used on some F-16's varients and i am fully aware about the engine and i would advice u too plz stop thinking about me or others to be so ignorent whats next u comming and telling me that M-88-3 would be used on Rafale and would make it able to supercruise....

again read what i wrote.. i said LCA doesnt need to look at M88-3 as LCA already has a backup till kaveri comes up.. and that is GE404.. on which the prototypes are flying and orders of better versions have been placed. and i still state the same thing.. " you are ignorant "..
wether you want to accept it or not.. LCA is flying with GE404..

Thats the entire argument my fellow member how much time ur not making a raptor its an LCA which has been in development for the last 20 years the raptor is in service now like wise how much time do u guys need to get this jet battle ready in other words ur proving my point...

its about jump in level of technology that you are making.. that comes with time.. you cant put a class 4 student in college and expect him to pass. ( but you can expect a class 12 student to do it).. as knowledge takes time and money..
For india LCA is a project for not just building a plane but to establish indian aviation industry..

Weird how with time things change i remember at one time indian's claming that LCa would fly circuls around thunder now LCA is not in a competition (trust me now i grantee u thunder would run circuls around LCA).

lets see that in a war.. instead of this war of words.

 

[ajaybhutani]

If it wasn't relevant then they would not skip LCA and buy 125 MRCA.

IAF strengths are gonna decrease considrably in the next 15 years.. why 125 MRCA .. becuase even with 190 MKI and 200 LCA's ( add to it the already available 100+ (mig29's + M2k's) 4th gen planes and some jags.. we will be well short of planes and thats why 125 foreign planes to fill up the gap. IAF has placed orders for initial batch for 20 and money for the same has been released. first LSP plane will be out this year.. and batch of 20 will start when LSP of 8 planes finishes.
buying 125 MRCA's is a plan while skipping LCA is a hoax ..
actually its just the same as statement taht since paksitan is now gonna buy F16's so JF17 is a failure.. is it ??

 

[ajaybhutani]

I don't like the way some people ask questions. Behave Samudra.

its still way better than you

 

[ajaybhutani]

Sometimes a dead cow is not worth to cherish. I wish you would understand that. LCA is imho just a failed simplistic Mirage2000H version.

dead cow is the media version.. and we all know what all trash media keeps on throwing all the time.. they just write what sells.

 

[Munir]

its still way better than you

Personal remark. Thanks.

 

[Owais]

Please be specific of what range are we trying to compare.
for instance a ferry range can be upto 2.5 times greater than a combat range..
about the planes .. range values without explicit information about measurment parameters are useless for comparison..unless we are sure we can comparing both planes in similar conditions..
i'll give you a simple comparison data for gripen and LCA.
gripen
# Empty weight: 6,620 kg (14,600 lb)
# Loaded weight: 8,720 kg (19,200 lb)

LCA
# Empty weight: 5,500 kg (12,100 lb)
# Loaded weight: 8,500 kg (18,700 lb)

difference tells you the amount of fuel ( + i dunno wether it includes avinonics or not.. but again that would be the case with both planes and weight of avionics can be safely assumed to be similar. )

they run on similar versions on GE404 engines.. carry similar fuel quantities..(actually in case of LCA since the weight is much lower the fuel fraction will be considerably higher.. and giving it more range..

I am not saying that on behalf of my thoughts. the sources are saying that LCA's range is only 850km(NOT COMBAT RADIUS you are talking about). even the indian sources! but thats other thing that they don't have "gripen-centric approach" .

 

[Munir]

MRCA in troubles...

Government delays in MRCA deal disappoints Indian Air Force
By PTI
Published: August 14, 2006
Print Email

Image Hosted by ImageShack.us The Indian Air Force is reportedly said to be "disappointed" with the Government's handling of negotiations of the Multi Role Combat Aircraft deal. The MRCA deal, which includes the purchase of at least 126 fighter jets for the Indian Air Force, has seen many ups and downs over the last few years. The Indian Air Force in the late 90's had recommended the purchase of 126 Mirage fighter jets in order to replace its aging fleet and serve as the workhorse of the IAF for the next 2 decades. While the French Mirage fighters were the early favourites, now in 2006 there are many contenders for the MRCA deal including the American F-16's and F-18's, the French Rafael's, the Russian MiG-35's, British Eurofighter's and the European Grippen's. Reports indicated that the order would likely be split between two companies and will be increased from 126 fighter to 200 fighter jets. Some suspect that this and all the delay is due to international pressure that the present Congress lead Govt seems more susceptible to, than compared to when previous BJP lead Govt. was negotiating this deal. The Air Force's MRCA deal is a multi billion dollar deal, said to be one of Air Force's largest, and the aircraft system chosen will be forming the backbone of the Indian Air Force for atleast 2 to 3 decades.

 

[melb4aust]

There you go, not again!!! what are they up to.....

That means Pakistan is going well ahead of India right now in that aspect.

This could be a big blow to IAF remind you.

 

[Owais]

There you go, not again!!! what are they up to.....

That means Pakistan is going well ahead of India right now in that aspect.

This could be a big blow to IAF remind you.

I think they are totally confused in slecting the right MRCA type. first mirage 4000, then mig35, then F18 E/F and now..........??

 

[Chukkar]

How are they confused? Note this is a multivendor deal. So obviously they will have the following compete:

MiG-35
EF
Rafale
F/A-18 E/F
F-16 Block 60 onwards
Gripen

If anything, they are being sensible.

 

[blain2]

Its going to be a limited number of F/A-18s (will finally give IAF the much wanted access to US A2A and A2G munitions, avionics and AESA and as such may be worth it to buy a few sqns worth as IAF's high value assets) and the rest Mig-35/29(upgrade).

Eurofighter, Rafale and Gripen will all get the boot. F-16 has never lost a competition to the F/A-18 when the # of engines was not a specific requirement for a country...however given the fact that PAF already operates the F-16 and IAF would have to fund any development beyond blk52 (for blk 60, royalties have to be paid to UAEAF), it may not be a cost-effective platform for the IAF.

BTW, with two more types to be inducted, the # of types within IAF combat sqns, at least at the time of phasing out the old types would be 10
(Su-30, Mig-29(baaz), potentially Mig-35, potentially F/A-18, M2K, Jaguar, Mig-21Bison, Mig-23 and Mig-27 (these two would be phased out but in the interim along with the induction of the new types would probably remain in service for sometime) and then the LCA). All in all its quite possible that IAF at one point would be juggling 10 types in its front line combat sqns at the same time however it would probably be a relatively short duration as Mig-23/27 would be junked. Looks to be fairly painful from a logistics and maint. standpoint. (something that we too would face in the interim but with 6 types (F-16, ROSE Mirages, F-7PGs, F7Ps, A-5s and JF-17s) with the induction of JF-17 and phasing out of older Mirages, A-5s and F-7Ps...but lets see how things pan out for both.

I think the total # of sqns would definetly be less than the currently sanctioned strength of 39 sqns. Even after the purchase of 200 MRCA, IAF will not be able to maintain the numbers (even though capability wise the newer aircraft would compensate for the loss of numbers to a certain extent).

 

[blain2]

Another proof that Mig-29/Mig-35 would be the MRCA or the larger part of the two-type deal. I doubt IAF would sign on for license production of RD-33 engines for only 60 or so existing aircraft (RD-33K is what powers the Mig-35):

India to sign MiG-29 engine deals
By Siva Govindasamy
India was expected to seal deals worth $275 million with Russia last week to acquire and licence produce Klimov RD-33 turbofan engines as part of a refurbishment programme for its air force fleet of MiG-29 fighters.

Under the agreements, which were expected to be finalised during negotiations with Russia's Rosoboronexport sales organisation last week, the Chernyshev Machine-building plant - part of Russia's RSK MiG - will supply 20 RD-33 engines to India from early 2007 under a $25 million deal.

Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) will licence build a further 120 engines at its Koraput site in Orissa state under a follow-on deal worth some $250 million, according to industry sources. The Indian delegation discussing the deal was led by HAL chairman Ashok Baweja.

The RD-33 deals will support part of an upgrade plan for India's MiG-29 fleet, in service since 1986. It is experiencing problems acquiring spare parts for the aircraft from Russian suppliers, impacting the type's operational effectiveness.

Traditionally strong defence ties between India and Russia led to New Delhi ordering 16 MiG-29K naval fighters as part of a 2003 deal to acquire a surplus aircraft carrier from Moscow. HAL could also acquire the technology to manufacture RD-33MK Sea Wasp engines for the MiG-29K as part of the new licence production deal, the sources say.

RSK MiG's latest MiG-29OVT development - now being promoted to export customers as the MiG-35 - is among several designs likely to contest an Indian air force requirement for 126 new fighters. Other candidates are expected to include the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, Dassault Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon, Gripen International Gripen and Lockheed Martin F-16.

■ The Indian air force has reported a dramatic 91% reduction in the number of accidents involving its fighter aircraft types in the five-month period from 1 April 2006. Attributing the improvement to the adoption of new safety standards, the service says it only suffered one major accident - to a MiG-29 - during this period.

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles/2006/...gine+deals.html

 

[Chukkar]

The engine deal is being signed because the MiG-29s engines are reaching the end of their service life. The original ones supplied by the Russians were incredibly shitty, leading to frequent overhaul in Russia and at HAL. Now it just makes more sense to replace them.

I think that people are writing off the Eurocanards too easily- if EF or Rafale provide good access to technology and competitive pricing, one of them might be purchased, though in fewer numbers.

 

[blain2]

The engine deal is being signed because the MiG-29s engines are reaching the end of their service life. The original ones supplied by the Russians were incredibly shitty, leading to frequent overhaul in Russia and at HAL. Now it just makes more sense to replace them.

I think that people are writing off the Eurocanards too easily- if EF or Rafale provide good access to technology and competitive pricing, one of them might be purchased, though in fewer numbers.

Chukkar,

You may be right, however usually license production for a set of engines is not a small thing reserved for 100 or so engines. Assembly lines to be setup are a strategic decision and may not be limited to the Mig-29. Otherwise for 100 or so odd engines, India may have simply placed an order with Russia for the engines. My own take is that India is building the infrastructure to be able to absorb more aircraft using the same engines (most likely candidate for these are the 29/35 aircraft).

As far as the EF2K/Rafale are concerned, the issue is not one of people discounting them easily, rather the cost. Given the fact that RSAF has placed an order for 80 and it will cost them upwards of $17 billion dollars to get these aircraft inducted into service should be an eye opener for all in the sub-continent.

Here is a blurb:

The purchase of 72 Typhoon aircraft by the Royal Saudi Arabian Air Force. It has been estimated that the aircraft will cost about £5.4bn, and another £5bn is expected to be spent on missiles, spare parts and training. The deal, could be worth up to £20bn over the next 25 years according to Financial Times’ estimates.

http://www.nw-enquirer.co.uk/busine...rder_secures_3,000_bae_jobs_200608251452.html

The French are not any cheaper. So when you look at the IAF requirement (125 to 200 aircraft), you can see why the Typhoon and even Rafale (until and unless seriously stripped of capabilities) look fairly unfeasible for the IAF.

Now if you go for a smaller # of these aircraft, then IAF would have to end with at least a bigger # of Mig-35s (as F/A-18s would become too expensive to make up the balance and piss off the Russians seriously). Also this purchase is for a mid-tier MRCA and not for the "air dominance" role which the MKI fulfills according to the IAF.

I must admit that here we are all speculating, but the chances of the European platforms are fairly bleak. Its going to be a 20/80 type split between the US and Russian hardware in my opinion.

 

[MOO]

New KickAss RD-33K Engine
-Stronger, faster, improved life span and lastly, it doesn't smoke!!

http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_228.shtml