IAF losing edge over PAF:Military Intelligence.

[Black Widow]

This disqualifies your statement of MKI being the best in Asia which it is far from. The truth is that MKI is a lethal weapon but has its share of short comings too. Hige RCS is the biggest drawback but extra range is an advantage. Radar is not AESA hence can be countered, jammed. In another thread, i mentioned BARS tracking range for 3ms target which is less than 130 kms as mentioned commonly. It will be detected first by blk 52 and JFT simply because of its huge RCS so there goes the notion of "best in Asia or South Asia". Both fighters are small enough and have very small RCS that will be their advantage. Alot of factors come into equation but will discuss later.

I already mentioned that It has huge RCS, which is an issue... But what Make you so sure that IAF has not done RCS reduction exercise on MKI????

Radar range: Again its mere speculation, no one knows the exact range.

BVR fight: Its not easy to kill same generation Fighter planes in BVR scenario. In one such encounter, MiG25 (russian) and F16 (Israeli or american) fired 10 BVR missile on each other, interestingly none of the missile hit on target...

I am sure that these things will be known to IAF commanders, still they are increasing MKI .. It simply means that they know how to take care of JF17 and F16 (PAF's)

 

[fast]

So you are scaring me by using tongue twisting baron's English??? .. I put my words in simple British English.. I am not responsible for your illusion or dillusion...

Putting lying words in simple British English is still lying. But the funny thing is that you are lying to yourself mainly. Hence "Su30MKI is called F22 of Asia" is self-delusional to you. Hope that's simple enough for you to understand.

 

[SQ8]

don't derail the discussion, rockstar's main point was inferiority of Yugoslavian MiGs were downgraded, no AWACS... So please focus on it...

@Red Flag: these kind of Games are there to fool each other. Neither USAF nor IAF was operating at 100% technical level. No one can lock F22 if it is operating under 100% ability...

Read these points, These points are applicable to F16, F22 and JF17...

"1.The Su-30MKI did not use the data link in the exercise unlike the other air forces. The reason being the HAL supplied system is not compatible with NATO data links – neither is the system required to be compatible with NATO. The speaker clearly mentions that the high fratricide ratio in the kills was because of this reason. While NATO air forces are designed to inter operate with each other and carry out joint missions, the IAF is not.

2.The aircraft were operating their radars on training mode since the actual signals with which the Bars radar operates are kept secret."


I will say it again, Rockstar main point was "Iraqi and slavian MiGs were downgraded, not well maintained (due to weapon embargo), No AWACS..." The point is It will be not easy to shoot down Indian or Russian MiGs the way they shoot down others...

Sorry.. not buying it..The Iraqi migs had enough spares..
The Serb migs werent all helpless either.
Oh.. when it came to migs.. the Su-27's literally tore them apart in the Ethiopian Eritrean war..
The AA-10 was found useless by both sides..
but the AA-11 took the upper hand..

The F-15's at cope india were also handicapped.. still held their own there.

Considering the Chinese have had a long hard look at the Bars..
you guys are really good at keeping secrets.

 

[Dazzler]

We already have 3 different BVR options to exercise with. SD-10A, AIM 120 AMRAAM C5 and an undisclosed option. IAF has lost its edge in BVR today what it had in the 90s. This is a reality and must not be understated.

 

[Black Widow]

Putting lying words in simple British English is still lying. But the funny thing is that you are lying to yourself mainly. Hence "Su30MKI is called F22 of Asia" is self-delusional to you. Hope that's simple enough for you to understand.

Again you are twisting the words... Ok my apologies

Apology doesn't mean, you are right and I am wrong...
It just means, I care bout you, And I care bout our relation...

 

[rockstarIN]

We already have 3 different BVR options to exercise with. SD-10A, AIM 120 AMRAAM C5 and an undisclosed option. IAF has lost its edge in BVR today what it had in the 90s. This is a reality and must not be understated.

Apart from the undisclosed(??) other two are coming to you just now.. need enough time for target practice whereas we are firing it almost a decade..

We too have French Matra as BVR, apart from new French one(forgot the name) with up gradation of M2k.

You can't say we lost the edge, but the large gap is not there now..

 

[SQ8]

USAF F-15s and F-16s were handicapped? give me a break, whereas It was not MKI from our side, it was just basic Su-30.

I do not know what you are writing, but AFAIK, once one F-16 go a lock on on F-22, but that too was destroyed in mock fight.(Apart from EF recently)

And where is WVR regarding to F-22? then Why F-22, only F-16 with 'Fox-3' is enough.

As per the USAF debriefing.. unless they are liars..
take it up with Gambit or Chogy then.

The F-22 has been "shot down" two times..
once by the F-18 that broke the safety rules..
the other by the F-16 that was killed in the process.

The EF and the F-22.. have been officially not allowed to engage each other in mock combat..
the event of the Ef locking on the F-22 was during an impromptu engagement..
like the EF taking on the F-15's ..
The rafale has had lock on's of the F-22 in the recent ATLC in the UAE..

WVR wrt to the F-22.. provided you can make it that close.. that is where your hyped maneuverability comes in.
Fox 3 on a raptor.. hope he is jamming.. or you took a shot at point blank range..
otherwise you might as well jettison the missile... the effect will be the same.

 

[jha]

We already have 3 different BVR options to exercise with. SD-10A, AIM 120 AMRAAM C5 and an undisclosed option. IAF has lost its edge in BVR today what it had in the 90s. This is a reality and must not be understated.

You might want to reconsider if i disclose the options we have.. But leave it..Not worth it fighting like newbies ...

OT article almost depicts the situation we have in South Asia..IAF needs to induct quality jets and that too at very fast rate..

 

[rockstarIN]

Sorry.. not buying it..The Iraqi migs had enough spares..
The Serb migs werent all helpless either.
Oh.. when it came to migs.. the Su-27's literally tore them apart in the Ethiopian Eritrean war..
The AA-10 was found useless by both sides..
but the AA-11 took the upper hand..

The F-15's at cope india were also handicapped.. still held their own there.

Considering the Chinese have had a long hard look at the Bars..
you guys are really good at keeping secrets.

Not true, there were cannibalization for the spares in both the air crafts.. Both has no BVRs,

And regarding the AA-10 failure, inexperienced pilots firing it too away, close to max. range, had to miss it.

F-15s of cope India was handicapped? how?..

Chinese have Bars, nor Americans..Some components suppose to use for PAKFA radar, that was the reason...

 

[SQ8]

Not true, there were cannibalization for the spares in both the air crafts.. Both has no BVRs,

And regarding the AA-10 failure, inexperienced pilots firing it too away, close to max. range, had to miss it.

F-15s of cope India was handicapped? how?..

Chinese have Bars, nor Americans..Some components suppose to use for PAKFA radar, that was the reason...

Cannibalization for the IRqAF Migs started after the Kuwait invasion.. not before it.

Aa-10 failures on su-27's flown by Merc russian pilots with years on the type.. yeah sure.. this and that..

F-15's were limited to strict RoE's to emulate a BVR handicapped air force.. ala the PAF.. admitted by both sides.. read it on the "all true" internet.

Cant get a word of what you meant in the last line

 

[Dazzler]

Apart from the undisclosed(??) other two are coming to you just now.. need enough time for target practice whereas we are firing it almost a decade..

We too have French Matra as BVR, apart from new French one(forgot the name) with up gradation of M2k.

You can't say we lost the edge, but the large gap is not there now..

Your last sentence is exactly what this thread suggests. Rest of your post does not worth a reply.

 

[SQ8]

Your last sentence is exactly what this thread suggests. Rest of your post does not worth a reply.

Im going to second that policy... pride and not intelligence is at stake here it seems.

 

[fatman17]

i dont know why everyone have their 'dander up' over this - this is just a 'ploy' by indian hawks in collaboration with their media to raise 'hue & cry' over pakistan's modest military purchases and upgrades - in this way these hawks get all the money they want for their armed forces - similar tactic was used in the navy section on how PN so called 'build-up' is a warning for indian planners to hasten their naval procurement - it happens all the time!

 

[rockstarIN]

Cannibalization for the IRqAF Migs started after the Kuwait invasion.. not before it.

Aa-10 failures on su-27's flown by Merc russian pilots with years on the type.. yeah sure.. this and that..

F-15's were limited to strict RoE's to emulate a BVR handicapped air force.. ala the PAF.. admitted by both sides.. read it on the "all true" internet.

Cant get a word of what you meant in the last line

When gulf war started, IRqAF was not in a good shape, no doubt about it, Not even can compare with allied F-16s & F-15s, but most importantly the ECMs did more damage than anything else. Most are sitting ducks. Hardly any chance to WVR, Still there was one F-18 down and the epic M-25s evasion of 10 BVRs and escaping to Iran.

No proof that Russians were involved.. Its always there, in 71, Russians were involved ..this and that...unluckily Russians have no Discovery/History channel worldwide...

If F-15 was handicapped, so is Su-30s,. no sense in BVR vs WVR.

Bars 'were' a secret to Americans that time, for use in PAKFA, not the Chinese who are using it.

 

[kingdurgaking]

sure it has.. it left RAF Typhoons in a fix..
in one engagement..

It had repeatedly outfought the RSAF F-16's ..
but then..

It gets taken out by good old F-15's and F-16's..

came down to knowing how to fight.. and knowing how to use your machine.

Rockstar.. been saying that all along..
ON record..
The MKI is one of the best machines operational in an Asian Air Force

That said.

It is not the F-22 of Asia(crappy term btw).. it is not the best.. all round..
and it is certainly not invincible when it comes to its potential adversaries.

MKI edge is payload and fuel.. along with good radar... An MKI can carry 8-10 BVR's in a single machine and can drive 2 missile towards 4 targets simultaneously ... In addition with a huge internal fuel it can really do a good work in the air... that is why IAF has insisted an WSO for MKI...

All the RCS issues are negated with this enormous payload and range..

As per the report ... right now IAF dont have 29 , no 27 and only handfull of 21's and M2K are of not competitive .. only hope is MKI... which has to be placed in North and North East .. so IAF is in serious draw back