IAF grappling with free fall in fighters, will have to fly upgraded MiG-21s

[帅的一匹]

HAL produces Su 30 MKI that is IAFs frontline fighter.It did induct many of HALs indigenously developed fighters/trainers back in 60s-70s.

And it has already inducted Dhruv delicopter,and is intrested in Light Combat Helicopter & sitara IJT.

If IAF flys Mig21, why not LCA? Is LCA that bad even worse than flying coffins?

 

[gslv mk3]

it may or may not be my business. But whether it is or not is none of your business.

But as a member here, I have my rights to my comment. That is what make this forum what it is. A place of free speech.

As a member here,you doesnt have the right to troll.This thread is about Indian airforce-not about India's domestic cultural or economic problems or relation with neighbouring countries.

Understood,troll??

If India plans to cancel the Rafale purchase and stop inducting MKI, than LCA would be utmost important. Otherwise, why would invest in LCA for 30 years and then buy only 24 planes be such a good idea? Do you have much common sense.

If China is trying to built its own indigenous capability,India too have the right to do that.And how can Tejas take 30 years?by the same logic EF & Rafale took 30 years in development too...and 24 fighters?

I have far more common sense,than a guy qho claims that a country who can even send an interplanetary mission is at same level as another one,that havent even attained orbital capability...

If IAF flys Mig21, why not LCA? Is LCA that bad even worse than flying coffins?

LCA is far safer & advanced than Mig 21s,the induction of tejas mk1 has delayed to 2015,due to some teething issues.IAF wants a mature product,LCA would take time,I guess LCA mk2 would be inducted faster (first flight in 2014-2015)

 

[faithfulguy]

As a member here,you doesnt have the right to troll.This thread is about Indian airforce-not about India's domestic cultural or economic problems or relation with neighbouring countries.

Understood,troll??



If China is trying to built its own indigenous capability,India too have the right to do that.And how can Tejas take 30 years?by the same logic EF & Rafale took 30 years in development too...and 24 fighters?

I have far more common sense,than a guy qho claims that a country who can even send an interplanetary mission is at same level as another one,that havent even attained orbital capability...



LCA is far safer & advanced than Mig 21s,the induction of tejas mk1 has delayed to 2015,due to some teething issues.IAF wants a mature product,LCA would take time,I guess LCA mk2 would be inducted faster (first flight in 2014-2015)

the domestic economic problem should be related to defense as everything is defense related. How is India going to buy Rafale when its depreciating so much. India should just go for LCA instead. But come to think of it, it won't matter much as LCA parts are mostly bought from abroad.

India plans to only buy 24 LCA if I'm correct. Or is it 48?

In all sense, its not justified to develop something for 30 years and buy only 48 planes.

 

[gslv mk3]

the domestic economic problem should be related to defense as everything is defense related. How is India going to buy Rafale when its depreciating so much. India should just go for LCA instead. But come to think of it, it won't matter much as LCA parts are mostly bought from abroad.

India plans to only buy 24 LCA if I'm correct. Or is it 48?

In all sense, its not justified to develop something for 30 years and buy only 48 planes.

The last time I checked,Rafale deal was still on.And AFAIK,India is only buying components such as engines.

And India is going to buy 48 of Tejas Mark1.Ever heard of Tejas mk2 that uses a GE F414 engine,and would have first flight 2014-2015,eh troll??

 

[Ayush]

tejas...

 

[faithfulguy]

The last time I checked,Rafale deal was still on.And AFAIK,India is only buying components such as engines.

And India is going to buy 48 of Tejas Mark1.Ever heard of Tejas mk2 that uses a GE F414 engine,and would have first flight 2014-2015,eh troll??

will will will. That is the word that describe India's defense procurement. Lets talk about present and LCA is still not available after 30 years of development. And India is only going to buy 24 for parade purposes.

I don't know how long will MK2 take. The first flight is 2014-2015. And this is just a projection. Lets say that MK2 fly by 2015. But the induction would be a long time away. Who know how long will it take.

What India should do to solve the problem is utilize others production ability to fulfill its flighter shortage. Just 10 squadrons of Rafale if they can deliver it quickly. Otherwise, just buy F-18 and India can get it within 3-5 years. What India need is fighter plan speed to show up on the Indian tarmac. Otherwise, everything else is just about the future and not real.

 

[Mritunjaya]

Just pour 20 Billion $ into the LCA and MCA and see the difference. ............... but no, IAF wants Foreign maal. They are just too good for desi maal.

@ 40 million $ per LCA, for 20 Billion India can buy 500 LCA. If you consider discount for such a bulk buy, IAF can probably buy 600 LCA with 20 Billion $.


Just this act of injecting 20 Billion $ will generate at least 100 Billion $ worth of associated industries in India. ............... but I guess IAF would rather spend 20 billion $ helping France develop its economy.

 

[Dillinger]

Just pour 20 Billion $ into the LCA and MCA and see the difference. ............... but no, IAF wants Foreign maal. They are just too good for desi maal.

@ 40 million $ per LCA, for 20 Billion India can buy 500 LCA. If you consider discount for such a bulk buy, IAF can probably buy 600 LCA with 20 Billion $.


Just this act of injecting 20 Billion $ will generate at least 100 Billion $ worth of associated industries in India. ............... but I guess IAF would rather spend 20 billion $ helping France develop its economy.

Doesn't work that way. The operational doctrine of the IAF does not mandate 500 light fighters with limited payload and CR. The LCA cannot be expedited by throwing money at it. Nor can the LCA perform the same functions as the Rafale within a comparable operational envelope. The LCA has its place and MRCAs like Rafale have theirs'.

 

[Mritunjaya]

Doesn't work that way. The operational doctrine of the IAF does not mandate 500 light fighters with limited payload and CR. The LCA cannot be expedited by throwing money at it. Nor can the LCA perform the same functions as the Rafale within a comparable operational envelope. The LCA has its place and MRCAs like Rafale have theirs'.

LOL......I see.

India is supposed to bend to the 'Operational doctrines' of IAF.................silly me. I actually though that the 'Operational doctrines' of IAF was designed to accommodate Indian realities.


I guess India is just too inferior to the superior 'operational doctrines' of the IAF. That is why starving Indians will have to spend 20 billion $ of money they can ill afford to accommodate the 'operational doctrines' of superior IAF.


Let me guess. ....... you are from an army background ? ....maybe an army family ?


BTW the LCA can be expedited by throwing more money at it. That is the basic principle of project management. Its a trade off between cost, time and quality. You need High quality and less time, you need to spend more money.

 

[Nishan_101]

I am 100% sure that IAF will not going to fly MiG-27s nor MiG-21s by 2015 as both are of no use now. Also there is a huge possibility of IAF to order directly of MMRCA like of Basic, Intermediate and Advance trainers.... we are seeing as IAF is not happy with the quality of HAL production which it saw with 2 Su-30MKIs crash.

 

[gslv mk3]

will will will. That is the word that describe India's defense procurement. Lets talk about present and LCA is still not available after 30 years of development. And India is only going to buy 24 for parade purposes.

I don't know how long will MK2 take. The first flight is 2014-2015. And this is just a projection. Lets say that MK2 fly by 2015. But the induction would be a long time away. Who know how long will it take.

What India should do to solve the problem is utilize others production ability to fulfill its flighter shortage. Just 10 squadrons of Rafale if they can deliver it quickly. Otherwise, just buy F-18 and India can get it within 3-5 years. What India need is fighter plan speed to show up on the Indian tarmac. Otherwise, everything else is just about the future and not real.

At first please explain how did it take 30 years.talks,discussions & other stuff cannot be counted as development-full scale development & funding did not came until 1990s.
And IAF is not one of those airforces that would induct fighter jets for 'chest thumping purposes'.If it was,LCA would have been inducted long time ago.IAF wanted a mature platform.So cut the cr@p.

You know nothing about the development processes involved.Tejas mk2 is just like the 'blocks' of F 22,each being more mature than the former,and it'll only take less time in Indiction than mk 1.

The hornet was already rejected,and considering all proceduresrequired for acquiring stopgap measures,its better to wait till2015,and then have multiple assembly lines for Tejas.

 

[karan.1970]

LOL......I see.

India is supposed to bend to the 'Operational doctrines' of IAF.................silly me. I actually though that the 'Operational doctrines' of IAF was designed to accommodate Indian realities.

'Operational doctrines' of IAF are designed to accommodate Indian realities of threat perception.

I guess India is just too inferior to the superior 'operational doctrines' of the IAF. That is why starving Indians will have to spend 20 billion $ of money they can ill afford to accommodate the 'operational doctrines' of superior IAF.

The I in IAF stands for Indian..

Let me guess. ....... you are from an army background ? ....maybe an army family ?

Not me. Though I visit Army Canteen a lot for cheap liquor

BTW the LCA can be expiated by throwing more money at it. That is the basic princple of project management. Its a trade off between cost, time and quality. You need High quality and less time, you need to spend more money.

So you belong to the category that believes that with better planning, nine fathers can make a baby in a single month ?

 

[gslv mk3]

I am 100% sure that IAF will not going to fly MiG-27s nor MiG-21s by 2015 as both are of no use now. Also there is a huge possibility of IAF to order directly of MMRCA like of Basic, Intermediate and Advance trainers.... we are seeing as IAF is not happy with the quality of HAL production which it saw with 2 Su-30MKIs crash.

The MKI crash had nothing to do with quality of production,even F 22 s crash.So stop yrolling.

 

[Mritunjaya]

'Operational doctrines' of IAF are designed to accommodate Indian realities of threat perception.

The I in IAF stands for Indian..

Not me. Though I visit Army Canteen a lot for cheap liquor

So you belong to the category that believes that with better planning, nine fathers can make a baby in a single month ?

If operational doctrines of IAF are only designed to accommodate Indian threat preceptions then the IAF leadership has done a VERY POOR job.

They are supposed to design operational doctrines that takes into account all of India's strengths and all of India's weaknesses to counter the treat perceptions. It appears to me that they have failed miserable in their job. But don't let my factual observations discourage you from your rose tinted view of the IAF.


PS: Don't pretend to teach me project Management. I happen to be a professional Program Manager with 8+ years of real time project management.

 

[Dillinger]

LOL......I see.

India is supposed to bend to the 'Operational doctrines' of IAF.................silly me. I actually though that the 'Operational doctrines' of IAF was designed to accommodate Indian realities.


I guess India is just too inferior to the superior 'operational doctrines' of the IAF. That is why starving Indians will have to spend 20 billion $ of money they can ill afford to accommodate the 'operational doctrines' of superior IAF.


Let me guess. ....... you are from an army background ? ....maybe an army family ?


BTW the LCA can be expedited by throwing more money at it. That is the basic principle of project management. Its a trade off between cost, time and quality. You need High quality and less time, you need to spend more money.

NO, the IAF's operational doctrine cannot be "bent" according to anything other than the operational realities that the IAF faces. IF that were not so then no country in the world would procure expensive foreign platforms, including the Chinese.

An army background has nothing to do with it, the Armed Forces are known to be disdainful towards indigenous products, no doubt about it but the reasons aren't just limited to some afssar taking a bribe. Losing men to products which are designed appropriately but fabricated in a substandard manner is not what our jawaan fight for. So let us not try and stake out the moral high ground. For example sans the MKI the IAF today would be reduced to a force incapable of projecting the requisite quantum of force, the only thing that stands in the way of the Chengdu MRAF and its 4 fighter divisions are the MKIs.

The LCA project suffers from various issues, funding is not an immediate issue though. The funds released for said product are in line with what the OEMs have asked for, albeit in the macrocosm the funds are not sufficient for extensive R&D. At the moment there isn't much of a choice. The LCA will take time to mature, contrary to our knackered RM it is NOT going to attain IOC this year or next year, unless the IAF has started handing out IOCs before the TACDE is through with a platform and operational conversion has commenced. No amount of money splurged can expedite such processes, processes which exist for a reason. Educate yourself about the procedures related to such projects before deciding that your stand is correct beyond reproach.