IAF drops Russia from $1 bn deal

[white_pawn]

See when it come's to the security of the country, one should conside what is the best equipment needed and which can be expected in time without any kind of delay.

And is India choices other countires equipment then i dont think they have done any thing worng, bcoz every thinks comesafter country no matter what it is.

 

[maverick2009]

India geo political relationships are changing. Any one with half a brain can see that India is moving into the western sphere. Manmohan singh wants $500 billion FDI from USA & the west over the next 10 years to improve india,s infrastructure. The nucl;ear deal WAS JUST THE START.

Russia though stil a very important ally to indian military is no longer exclusive. The Israelis first and now the Americans are coming fast has predicted 5 years ago in many publications/debates.

 

[araz]

Hmmm, good news. Seems like that the India-Russia relation isn't all that cosy after all.

Cracks in the India-Russia defence relationship have existed for some time now. Some of the irritants include Russia seeking mid-course price revisions in contracts for Sukhoi-30 fighters and aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov, a problem of steady supply of spares, poor vendor support after the disintegration of the Soviet Union and transfer of technology issues.

Wow, that's a little more than cracks in the relationship if you ask me. That's a quite lengthy list of complaints right there...

BabarCM
Before we start banging our chests please look at the reasonsfor the breakup of this relationship. The russian practice of asking for mid course reevaluation andprice hike is unconventional to say the least and would make thewm unpopular and unreliable with anyone much less India. However, there are lessons to be learnt here if we are ever to do businesss with the bear. We need to sort the contract out in such a manner that we also do not get taken for a ride.
WaSalam
Araz

 

[deltacamelately]

Not sure if Pakistanis should be that happy about cracks in India-Russia defence relations. Keep in mind that the reason there are cracks is because of unprofessional and shitty contractual/support issues on the Russian side. Aside from India, another recent issue was the Algerian complaints and return of the Fulcrum SMTs.

If you ask me, Russians have a pretty crappy track record of upholding contracts and delivering on time. On top of that if they sell to Pakistan, we would have to listen to their regional leadership BS.

If Russians were willing to sell *everything* to Pakistan and under strict deadlines and fulfillment of contracts on time then it would be somewhat of a good thing, however the track record with others is pretty bad.

Blain,

You are quite right in your assessment, however, there is yet one more reason "not to straight jump" into the bed with the Russians, before giving it a second thought.

Just look at the vast amount of hardware India has procured over such a long time period involving inumerable joint projects, ToTs, License productions etc etc, our strategic partnership of over 3 decades and see how even these couldn't stop them from "holding up" certain critical projects, an aka Gorshkov.

You immediately start finding things that tell you why the current Russian policymakers, in their military procurement cells, are NOT the same as their earstwhile Soviet compatriots.

Pakistan, with a leaner economic leg would be hardpressed against these Russian hardball antics, specially if it involves critical harware at critical times.

 

[fatman17]

^^the US supply chain is no better - beware!!

 

[BaburCM]

BabarCM
Before we start banging our chests please look at the reasonsfor the breakup of this relationship. The russian practice of asking for mid course reevaluation andprice hike is unconventional to say the least and would make thewm unpopular and unreliable with anyone much less India. However, there are lessons to be learnt here if we are ever to do businesss with the bear. We need to sort the contract out in such a manner that we also do not get taken for a ride.
WaSalam
Araz

I'm not banging my chest. All I said is that defence relations between Russia and India aren't that smooth. I don't deny that Russians as defence suppliers are the least reliable.

In fact, hard lessons need to be learnt from this thawing relation between Russia and India. Pakistan would do very wise by not relying too much on Russians for engines or other components for JF-17. It was a necessity initially. As the Chinese develop their engines we need to switch ASAP.

^^the US supply chain is no better - beware!!

Spot on. The Americans are a tad more unreliable as far as I'm concerned. In fact, it's part of US policy to blackmail their suppliers. Sanctions, intimidation and threats are part and parcel of US defence deals.

On a different note, Pakistan has done wisely by switching to the Chinese and relying on JVs that come with hefty ToT. The domestic defence industry in Pakistan needs to flourish and become independent and indigenous. Long term aim should be to become self-reliant, at least in the spares department. It's tantamount that Pakistan develops the infrastructure, expertise and capacity not only to fulfill the domestic needs, but also for external supply.

 

[sancho]

It's funny that people see a crack in Indo-Russian relationship only because we buy 14 western aircrafts (8 x P8I and 6 x A330), which btw seems to be more capable then the Russian that were offered (A330 can be used as refuler and transport aircraft!). What you don't think about is, that these are only small deals and that there is at least one big deal with Russia on the other side!
MRTA coop with Russia, at least 45, maybe up to 100 aircrafts. 25 attack helicopters (maybe Apache) on the one side, 80 new ordered Mi 17 on the other. MRCA competition on the one side (maybe F18SH), Su 30 / Pak Fa coop on the other side.
Also the point that Israel is now our number one weapon seller is only true in case of paid money. But they mainly sell us techs and not tanks, aircrafts, or ships, so there should be no doubt that Russia is and will remain as the main partner in defense deals to India.

 

[BaburCM]

^^ Regardless, that doesn't take away the fact that there are quite clearly irritants between Russian-Indian defence relations. Despite all the JVs and defence purchases, Russia seeks the whole pie which India obviously cannot adhere to. India wants to diversify its defence needs. India is caught between a struggle of power I'm afraid. You have to please sides.

 

[Patriot]

If Pakistan wants to buy any engines etc it should be done through China.Russians are very much anti Pakistani.Russians can only help us by approving engine sales of J10 and other fighters we purchase from China.

 

[maverick2009]

Babercm .

India has to please no one.

The Western World led bu USA & Europe are falling over themselves attempting to win wat is surely the biggest Arms market in the World bar China.

Some say India will spend $100 billion in the next decade alone.

Russia will take a big slice with PAK FA & Akula 2 nuke subs, But the Israelis and Americans are sniffing with all sorts of offers from TOT and joint ventures for IAF & Indian Navy in Particular.

Interesting times ahead

 

[Contrarian]

Wrong tilt of the original post. The article is biased.

The A-330MRTT was clearly technologically superior and thus India chose that. There is a clear statement by the ACM that the Russian plane could not satisfy the technical requirements and was thus not chosen.

Being a Russian ally does not mean buying equipment that is inferior to other contemporary equipment available. It is afterall Indian money that is being spent. In the absense of an alternative, Russian option would be mandatory-as is evident in many strategic areas, but there seems to be a Problem of Plenty for India in the defence sector.

And for Pakistani's, please hold your horses. There are a multitude of reasons why
a.Pakistan cannot buy from Russia
b.Why Russia wont sell to Pakistan.

 

[Sam Dhanraj]

What the russian papers say....

India cancels contract for Russian refueling aircraft


Russia is likely to lose a $1-billion contract for the supply of Il-78 refuellers to India, which could hamper the development of other spheres of military technical cooperation with India.


"After operating Il-78 tankers for almost six years, the Indian Air Force has said the Russian platform does not meet its requirements and it wants to deploy the Airbus A330 multi-role tanker transport (MRTT) offered by European aerospace corporation EADS," Hindustan Times writes.


"The A330 MRTT has won several tanker competitions with contracts signed by the governments of the United Kingdom, Australia, Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates."


Ruslan Pukhov, director of the Moscow-based Center for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies, said: "The size of the Indian market has been growing, but it is not Russia but mostly other arms exporters that are taking advantage of that increment. Russian arms supplies to India are growing in absolute figures, while the relative share of Russian exporters on the Indian market is shrinking."


The analyst said the objective reason for this is that the cost of Russian arms had been growing steadily, and is rapidly approaching European prices.


"India is one of the countries that has not been seriously hit by the global crisis, and it therefore has money for arms purchases," Pukhov said. "A low price is no longer one of its main requirements. India is now buying very expensive weapons systems, which previously only the Persian Gulf countries could buy."


Pukhov also said a subjective factor was the failure of some Russian companies on the Indian market.


"For example, India bought American C-130J military transport planes because a Russian company was dragging its feet in the joint project to create a multi-role transport aircraft (MTA)," he said. "It also terminated a contract for modernization of naval patrol planes because of the same Russian company."


The main issue on the agenda is now the supply of 126 multi-role combat aircraft valued at $9 billion.


"Until recently, Russia was considered the favorite bidder in that tender, but problems with its other contracts are having a negative effect on this tender," Pukhov said.

 

[BaburCM]

Babercm .

India has to please no one.

The Western World led bu USA & Europe are falling over themselves attempting to win wat is surely the biggest Arms market in the World bar China.

Some say India will spend $100 billion in the next decade alone.

Russia will take a big slice with PAK FA & Akula 2 nuke subs, But the Israelis and Americans are sniffing with all sorts of offers from TOT and joint ventures for IAF & Indian Navy in Particular.

Interesting times ahead

You don't have to convince me about anything. I know exactly why the Americans are so eager to jump in bed with the Indians. It's obviously meant to keep China in check. It's not that easy though. These toys are only for muscle flexing. We know that when push comes to shove how far the conflict in this region and the world can really go. Times will get really interesting when half of the world is burning with war and conflicts. That time isn't far off at this rate I can assure you. This weapons build up isn't meant for show. Mark my words.

 

[Energon]

Wrong tilt of the original post. The article is biased.

The A-330MRTT was clearly technologically superior and thus India chose that. There is a clear statement by the ACM that the Russian plane could not satisfy the technical requirements and was thus not chosen.

I completely agree. With the end of the cold war the arms business has globalized quite a bit and brought with it stiff competition. The Russians haven't quite got their military industrial complex back on track since the collapse of the Soviet Union and have subsequently been surpassed by their Western counterparts. Furthermore, poor business practices like gross contractual violations and price inflation of inferior products and services by holding ongoing projects hostage has only worsened future business prospects of the Russians with stalwart clients like India.

The A330MRTT is a state of the art aircraft which is supposed to be one of the best in its class. It can also be fit with both, the boom and the hose-drogue system which increasingly seems to be a technical requirement the IAF will require for the future. Either way this aircraft beat out an older, less capable and more maintenance intensive one.

 

[deltacamelately]

You don't have to convince me about anything. I know exactly why the Americans are so eager to jump in bed with the Indians. It's obviously meant to keep China in check. It's not that easy though. These toys are only for muscle flexing. We know that when push comes to shove how far the conflict in this region and the world can really go. Times will get really interesting when half of the world is burning with war and conflicts. That time isn't far off at this rate I can assure you. This weapons build up isn't meant for show. Mark my words.

BaburCM,

Am I seeing a serious contradiction here?
Either these weapons are for simple mussle flexing or for real war.
It can not be both ways. Cross check.