Featured IAF airlifts dozens of tanks to Ladakh to beef up firepower

[Joe Shearer]

So what do we have?

1. Claim: The PLA numbers are better, because they have moved in two mechanised infantry divisions;
   1. Existing Indian Army strength deployed as XIV Corps with 2 Infantry Division was first ignored;
   2. Then avoided carefully, because the facts did not suit the narrative.
2. Claim: The PLA has a superiority in armour, as they are deploying their made for the Himalayas light tank;
   1. No evidence showing any superiority whatsoever;
      1. Weight was quoted; as it doesn't make a difference, it was quickly ignored;
      2. Weight was quoted; it was pointed out such a light weight also meant lighter armour, greater vulnerability; point was quickly dropped;
      3. Weight was quoted; the information available on open sources shows that it was deployed in Tibet due to its light weight, easing transportation and logistics; nothing to do with any operational superiority; point was quietly dropped;
      4. Engine was quoted; nothing available shows that any design adaptations have been made to enable the engine to work more efficiently at high altitudes, in conditions of low oxygen availability; only mention of 'digital control' that has nothing to do with the engine per se;
      5. Engine was quoted; there is a 'sidebar' reference to 'electronic control', thus:
         Electronically controlled diesel engine with fully-automatic transmission
         1,000 hp (746 kW);
      6. Engine was quoted, and the effects of high altitude on diesel engine operation were highlighted, with apparently no consciousness of the fact that all diesel engines are affected by these factors equally, and that the Light Tank does not have an engine that does yoga to fit itself for the task on hand;
      7. Digital control was quoted, apparently on the assumption that digital control is some sort of in-vehicle homing system that radically improves accuracy of gunfire, rather than it being a digital display of gun bearings (direction, elevation, thence range);
      8. Digital control was quoted, in flat contradiction of a wise man having elsewhere said that all Indian artillery would miss its targets because Indian Army calibration of its guns had not been done, in spite of being informed that a high-altitude firing range was in operation; however, although this is the first time that the T-15 Light Tank is being deployed in Tibet, it is assumed to have miraculously calibrated itself without the benefit of any long-drawn out calibration exercise as recommended for Indian Army guns; what is sauce for the gun is clearly not sauce for the tank;
3. Claim: The PLA has superiority in artillery, because the Indian Army has not calibrated its guns for firing at such low-oxygen, high-altitude conditions; also the Indian Army has no business purchasing precision ammunition (Krasnopol, Excalibur) as it will lose any battle and lose all its artillery resources to the unique PLA mass-launched MLRS, ground attack and counter-battery fire;
   1. There is a full-fledged firing range (indirectly known to the general public independently of this assertion here, due to it being the venue at which acceptance trials for high-altitude ordnance were conducted) and the Indian Army has used it extensively;
   2. There is no evidence, not even fan-boy assertions, of the PLA having conducted such calibration trials on its own ordnance, or on the MLRS, or of any ground-attack trials or exercise; again, sauce for the Indian Army gander is clearly not sauce for the PLA goose.

We could go on the whole day, fielding ignorant claims of world domination by fan-boys and explaining the fallacy of their arguments one at a time. No point in arguing with those whose particular strength is to drown the discussion with rapid-fire posts with no content, but this is put on record for members to see the level of technical competence and knowhow that some members have.

Not their fault; their parents should have sent them to better schools.

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

So what do we have?

1. Claim: The PLA numbers are better, because they have moved in two mechanised infantry divisions;
   1. Existing Indian Army strength deployed as XIV Corps with 2 Infantry Division was first ignored;
   2. Then avoided carefully, because the facts did not suit the narrative.
2. Claim: The PLA has a superiority in armour, as they are deploying their made for the Himalayas light tank;
   1. No evidence showing any superiority whatsoever;
      1. Weight was quoted; as it doesn't make a difference, it was quickly ignored;
      2. Weight was quoted; it was pointed out such a light weight also meant lighter armour, greater vulnerability; point was quickly dropped;
      3. Weight was quoted; the information available on open sources shows that it was deployed in Tibet due to its light weight, easing transportation and logistics; nothing to do with any operational superiority; point was quietly dropped;
      4. Engine was quoted; nothing available shows that any design adaptations have been made to enable the engine to work more efficiently at high altitudes, in conditions of low oxygen availability; only mention of 'digital control' that has nothing to do with the engine per se;
      5. Engine was quoted; there is a 'sidebar' reference to 'electronic control', thus:
         Electronically controlled diesel engine with fully-automatic transmission
         1,000 hp (746 kW);
      6. Engine was quoted, and the effects of high altitude on diesel engine operation were highlighted, with apparently no consciousness of the fact that all diesel engines are affected by these factors equally, and that the Light Tank does not have an engine that does yoga to fit itself for the task on hand;
      7. Digital control was quoted, apparently on the assumption that digital control is some sort of in-vehicle homing system that radically improves accuracy of gunfire, rather than it being a digital display of gun bearings (direction, elevation, thence range);
      8. Digital control was quoted, in flat contradiction of a wise man having elsewhere said that all Indian artillery would miss its targets because Indian Army calibration of its guns had not been done, in spite of being informed that a high-altitude firing range was in operation; however, although this is the first time that the T-15 Light Tank is being deployed in Tibet, it is assumed to have miraculously calibrated itself without the benefit of any long-drawn out calibration exercise as recommended for Indian Army guns; what is sauce for the gun is clearly not sauce for the tank;
3. Claim: The PLA has superiority in artillery, because the Indian Army has not calibrated its guns for firing at such low-oxygen, high-altitude conditions; also the Indian Army has no business purchasing precision ammunition (Krasnopol, Excalibur) as it will lose any battle and lose all its artillery resources to the unique PLA mass-launched MLRS, ground attack and counter-battery fire;
   1. There is a full-fledged firing range (indirectly known to the general public independently of this assertion here, due to it being the venue at which acceptance trials for high-altitude ordnance were conducted) and the Indian Army has used it extensively;
   2. There is no evidence, not even fan-boy assertions, of the PLA having conducted such calibration trials on its own ordnance, or on the MLRS, or of any ground-attack trials or exercise; again, sauce for the Indian Army gander is clearly not sauce for the PLA goose.

We could go on the whole day, fielding ignorant claims of world domination by fan-boys and explaining the fallacy of their arguments one at a time. No point in arguing with those whose particular strength is to drown the discussion with rapid-fire posts with no content, but this is put on record for members to see the level of technical competence and knowhow that some members have.

Not their fault; their parents should have sent them to better schools.

What about this?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1276534439363801088

 

[Joe Shearer]

@Joe Shearer that isn't even a feature in year 2020, that is something which has become foundation on what electronic control unit (ECU/ECM) works in all electronic control engines. Available in all diesel cars ( Except Variable geometry turbos,which are available from medium segment cars and SUVs).
It would be unwise to think newer gen tanks haven't got Electronic control units and more expensive Turbos ( more expensive in terms of car price, when you are spending few crore on a tank , 4-6lc extra for a VGT won't dissuade you).

I disagree with your automatic assumption that these basic features cannot be fitted onto the successive generations of tanks that have been acquired.Are you aware of the different phases of acquisition of the T-90 alone, indicated by the numbering given to successive models with improvements in engine among other things? Your basic point is sound; your extrapolation of it in a blanket manner is not.

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

@Joe Shearer Plz reply

 

[Joe Shearer]

Hahahah...
@Joe Shearer I hope you had chow mian and that gopi Manchurian.

I had the Chow Mein with Hoisin Sauce due to the advice I got from a very knowledgeable source, and it blew my socks off. The Gobi Manchurian was a bit strong; next time, I will try it with more Gobi and less sauce. But, yes, it was very, very good. It was strong enough an influence to keep me from sitting on the heads of fan-boys for quite a while, but the situation - some of the posts I read - became too tempting to withstand.

I am making Sweet and Sour Veg tomorrow, and if it turns out well, it may be a kinder, more mellow Joe that you see on line.

My dear batman, that's the reason it's lighter and having more powerful engine to compensate the performance deterioration

I am sorry, but bats are your speciality, not mine. Calling people names when we do not have arguments to offer is also your speciality, not mine.

So you have worked out that the deterioration in performance is compensated by the additional HP per tonne? Is that your well-informed guess or are you quoting something of substance?

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

I had the Chow Mein with Hoisin Sauce due to the advice I got from a very knowledgeable source, and it blew my socks off. The Gobi Manchurian was a bit strong; next time, I will try it with more Gobi and less sauce. But, yes, it was very, very good. It was strong enough an influence to keep me from sitting on the heads of fan-boys for quite a while, but the situation - some of the posts I read - became too tempting to withstand.

I am making Sweet and Sour Veg tomorrow, and if it turns out well, it may be a kinder, more mellow Joe that you see on line.



I am sorry, but bats are your speciality, not mine.

So you have worked out that the deterioration in performance is compensated by the additional HP per tonne? Is that your well-informed guess or are you quoting something of substance?

Heelllooooo

 

[Joe Shearer]

Never know. If there is smoke there must be fire.

Yes is it the same thing that was used by your forces against a helicopter which was transporting your personel. Your sams will be taking out your own aricrafts. We have seen how good they work and btw Which grass land were thet grazing on feb 27?
Ever heard about radar suppression and electronic warfare? The sams have to see something to shoot something. And there is no guarante with an Indian handling it.

What repercussions? You gonna fly to Pakistan and destroy some trees kill some crows and send Abhinandan for some more Fantastic tea.
Trust me you live in fantasy not us.
You got rude awakening on feb 27 and your country never imagined PLA moving in so fast. They got you with Pants down not once but twice .
I'm just amused that you live a bummy life. Clueless about your own culture,will to fight and coming here with technical terms.
You need tatay to fight . Will to fight comes fist before all the fancy toys and ways to use them.

My Punjabi friends have a saying for you: Tainka jitne bhi barey hotey hain, Donald ke nichey hi hotey hain.

Tell me, what would you lot be doing if Abhinandan had not been fool enough to bolt for his target disobeying his controller? Not a single post or thread passes without a reference to him and to the tea he had.

Are you reduced to crowing over one plane shot down?

 

[sinait]

English may not be a language you understand well or may be you were haste when you started reading something that you didn’t want to. I clearly said Diesels don’t have the dramatic effects that gasoline engines do.

Chinese shiny toys can do a lot, but alas only on paper. Of a confrontation happens, you can tell me more of it. Proven technology vs one that is built on hype!

Actually Diesels are more affected by altitude.
Diesels ignite by compression alone.
With thinner air at high altitudes and therefore lower chamber compression, efficiency of combustion will be severely degraded.

This can be mitigated by having higher engine compression design or turbocharged.
I believe most likely to be turbocharged.
As China makes its engines, they will be able to design and fine tune their tank engines for maximum high altitude efficiency.
This is why their latest helicopters have 5 bladed rotors for high altitude efficiency.
.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Batman, we are not talking about Gasoline engines are we? We are talking about the performance degradation of tanks in high altitude. Understand? Chinse tanks were designed to be lighter and having more powerful engine to compensate the performance degradation.

I asked you a pointed question, understand? Answer that, with whatever tutoring is required.

Actually Diesels are more affected by altitude.
Diesel ignite by compression alone.
With thinner air at high altitudes and therefore lower chamber compression, efficiency of combustion will be severely degraded.

This can be mitigated by having higher engine compression design or turbocharged.
I believe most likely to be turbocharged.
As China makes its engines, they will be able to design and fine tune their tank engines for maximum high altitude efficiency.
This is why their latest helicopters have 5 bladed rotors for high altitude efficiency.
.

Dear Sir,

I am dealing with a horde that insists that these improvements have been achieved already, with no evidence whatsoever other than their wishful thinking to support it. That is why I have objections to their somersaults and handstands.

You are also aware of the state of development of engines in the PRC. There will be improvements, it goes without saying, but to project a total mastery of the technology, whether for terrestrial use or otherwise, is purely fan-boy hopes that what they would like to hear has already happened.

 

[terry5]

Let's hope China attacks Ladakh for cheerleaders sake.

yes we Kashmiris are praying and hoping to get rid Of the disease infested Indians

 

[Joe Shearer]

@Joe Shearer

Hello Sir!

A question came to my mind and I thought I ask you.

It is clear that China is the first to reach to the (potential) future battle ground.
India is now moving its troops and equipment.
It is clear that Indian troops will require time to acclimatise and train themselves at this very high altitude.
As you have mentioned, IA tanks etc. will need calibrating (I am not entirely sure if I have understood the term "calibrating" correctly).

My questions is: with the winter approaching fast, do you think that PLA will have the upper hand by default?

@PanzerKiel

I think there will be resistance, given whatever the situation is on the ground, even though waiting might be a good idea. There is also an opposed point of view, that the PLA should be allowed to have the upper hand by default, and that this aggression should be taken as the new normal, and acted upon as a baseline for all planning for the future.

Your question is most intriguing; just last night, there was a protracted discussion over this. My feeling is that it will be touch and go; it depends on whether or not one side decides to start shooting.The indications are quite grim; other Commands have been activated - it will be inappropriate to elaborate on that - and steps taken that seem to indicate that there is a decision already taken, regarding FURTHER responses.

There is an opposed view, that we will fix on what has been presented, and prepare for the next step with this fait accompli kept in mind. That has far more dangerous consequences, but that may have occurred already in the risk analysis of the Army and Air Force leadership.

To sum up, I think that there will be trouble, and before winter, since after that, conditions will be difficult (for both sides). It is noteworthy that the last hostility in this region occurred in October-November.

Regarding acclimatisation, what you have said reflects a common misapprehension, triggered by the actions the Indian Army took in 1962. To be honest, I have precisely the opposite impression.

China has moved in two mechanised infantry divisions, the 6th and the 4th, from their normal deployment areas; the 6 Mechanised Infantry was somewhere in Xinjiang in much lower altitudes than their present deployment in the four hot spots in Ladakh.

On the other hand, the Indian XIV Corps has been entrusted with Ladakh - the LAC - and one division, the 8 Division, with Kargil (so-called) right from the outset. These two divisions are NOT moving in; they are already there, already acclimatised, according to the fairly elaborate procedure required to be followed after our very bad experiences in 1962, and our frightful experiences in Siachen.

There are additional troops being moved in, and these are mostly from reserve elements of XV Corps, that handles J&K proper; these troops are already acclimatised, although to a lesser extent than Ladakh, since the altitude at their points of posting is lower. They may take a little time to acclimatise; I suspect that these lags have been taken into account by the commanders concerned, and that they will not be in the front line immediately.

Regarding calibration, that was someone else's point, one with which I disagree vigorously. There were actually two points made;one related to the artillery used by the Indian Army, one to the armoured resources and their efficacy.

The point about artillery was a singularly dense one; it was suggested that Indian guns were not calibrated for operating in the 'different' conditions in Ladakh, compared to those obtaining at sea level. This is pure nonsense on two grounds - one, there is a high-altitude testing ground, an artillery range, already in operation in southern Ladakh, and it has been in use for trials of guns under consideration for acquisition. XIV Corps organic artillery is in charge of this range, and it presumably has used it extensively already, so the question of setting the fire tables for those heights is superfluous (gunners have tables indicating the range that their guns will achieve at various elevations; these are known to differ at different altitudes, and the tables need re-working, hence 'calibration'. In this case, at high altitudes, shells will fire longer distances, due to less air resistance, and that has to be mapped carefully at different temperatures to produce reliable tables).

The second fallacy is that while one side is deemed to be unprepared, the other side descends from heaven with complete mastery of these differences in operating environment.

You do not deserve to be dragged through the ludicrous discussion about tanks and their relative effectiveness.

I hope your question is answered.

So! PLA has already (almost) done the first bit (attain) ...... they are in the process of the second (sustain) ..... I guess the third (retain) will be tested in war.

Well, I think that the Indian Army was already there, and hence attainment is equal.

Sustenance is a problem; PLA logistics is far better. We may expect to be outdone here.

Retention, as you said, will have to be tested; in war, according to my reading, through negotiation, according to the other alternative view.

 

[Han Patriot]

I asked you a pointed question, understand? Answer that, with whatever tutoring is required.

Tutor what pointed question? It's a simple explanation on performance degradation at higher altitude. T72 will be sitting ducks.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Tutor what pointed question? It's a simple explanation on performance degradation at higher altitude. T72 will be sitting ducks.

Ha ha ha ha...let us see. You should read up on what happened to AMX 13 tanks that faced Pattons and Shermans in 1965.

 

[rott]

I am making Sweet and Sour Veg tomorrow

Are you a vegetarian?

 

[Dil Pakistan]

I think there will be resistance, given whatever the situation is on the ground, even though waiting might be a good idea. There is also an opposed point of view, that the PLA should be allowed to have the upper hand by default, and that this aggression should be taken as the new normal, and acted upon as a baseline for all planning for the future.

Your question is most intriguing; just last night, there was a protracted discussion over this. My feeling is that it will be touch and go; it depends on whether or not one side decides to start shooting.The indications are quite grim; other Commands have been activated - it will be inappropriate to elaborate on that - and steps taken that seem to indicate that there is a decision already taken, regarding FURTHER responses.

There is an opposed view, that we will fix on what has been presented, and prepare for the next step with this fait accompli kept in mind. That has far more dangerous consequences, but that may have occurred already in the risk analysis of the Army and Air Force leadership.

To sum up, I think that there will be trouble, and before winter, since after that, conditions will be difficult (for both sides). It is noteworthy that the last hostility in this region occurred in October-November.

Regarding acclimatisation, what you have said reflects a common misapprehension, triggered by the actions the Indian Army took in 1962. To be honest, I have precisely the opposite impression.

China has moved in two mechanised infantry divisions, the 6th and the 4th, from their normal deployment areas; the 6 Mechanised Infantry was somewhere in Xinjiang in much lower altitudes than their present deployment in the four hot spots in Ladakh.

On the other hand, the Indian XIV Corps has been entrusted with Ladakh - the LAC - and one division, the 8 Division, with Kargil (so-called) right from the outset. These two divisions are NOT moving in; they are already there, already acclimatised, according to the fairly elaborate procedure required to be followed after our very bad experiences in 1962, and our frightful experiences in Siachen.

There are additional troops being moved in, and these are mostly from reserve elements of XV Corps, that handles J&K proper; these troops are already acclimatised, although to a lesser extent than Ladakh, since the altitude at their points of posting is lower. They may take a little time to acclimatise; I suspect that these lags have been taken into account by the commanders concerned, and that they will not be in the front line immediately.

Regarding calibration, that was someone else's point, one with which I disagree vigorously. There were actually two points made;one related to the artillery used by the Indian Army, one to the armoured resources and their efficacy.

The point about artillery was a singularly dense one; it was suggested that Indian guns were not calibrated for operating in the 'different' conditions in Ladakh, compared to those obtaining at sea level. This is pure nonsense on two grounds - one, there is a high-altitude testing ground, an artillery range, already in operation in southern Ladakh, and it has been in use for trials of guns under consideration for acquisition. XIV Corps organic artillery is in charge of this range, and it presumably has used it extensively already, so the question of setting the fire tables for those heights is superfluous (gunners have tables indicating the range that their guns will achieve at various elevations; these are known to differ at different altitudes, and the tables need re-working, hence 'calibration'. In this case, at high altitudes, shells will fire longer distances, due to less air resistance, and that has to be mapped carefully at different temperatures to produce reliable tables).

The second fallacy is that while one side is deemed to be unprepared, the other side descends from heaven with complete mastery of these differences in operating environment.

You do not deserve to be dragged through the ludicrous discussion about tanks and their relative effectiveness.

I hope your question is answered.



Well, I think that the Indian Army was already there, and hence attainment is equal.

Sustenance is a problem; PLA logistics is far better. We may expect to be outdone here.

Retention, as you said, will have to be tested; in war, according to my reading, through negotiation, according to the other alternative view.

Many thanks for this elaborate but precise reply - very grateful.
Precisely what I was looking to understand (you have, understandably, left few gaps).


What is the numerical size of IA vs PLA:

Brigade
Division
Corps