I am proud of the Kargil operation: Musharraf

[BATMAN]

Yes, tiger hill has phone lines passing through it. Unlike you, we like to develop our Kashmir. Here is another picture of Tiger hill, overlooking drass valley, showing telephone lines:

Have you developed Siachin too?
In picture, Telephone lines are running along the road.. this is very normal.

Do you want other pics of the aftermath of the battle of tiger hill, without phone lines? Here you go:

After officers were airdroped, for photo session and later scandals broke out.
Why don't you show the pictures of 'Nachiketa' his mig-29?

 

[EzioAltaïr]

What has your Army achieved in the same amount of time? Fought an army half your size to a stalemate 3 times. Take the EP as a victory for your side, will give that much. But otherwise not much to show for an Army that is double the size of the PA. So these comparisons are all relative.

1948 and 1965 were the only stalemates.

Not much to show? Bangladesh is living proof against your statement.

We have fought an adversary twice or thrice our size and have held our own against it fairly well each of the times. Not too many smaller Countries can claim that. We are not cowed down by you despite your attempts and this to me is not as bad as you and others try to make it out to be.

I would be insane if I believed that Pakistan Army, being the smaller and more limited in resources, would have a more different outcome in its conflicts with a much larger adversary.

If India were the aggressor, your point would be valid, but since Pakistan was responsible for all wars except 1971, there is no point.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

What has your Army achieved in the same amount of time? Fought an army half your size to a stalemate 3 times. Take the EP as a victory for your side, will give that much. But otherwise not much to show for an Army that is double the size of the PA. So these comparisons are all relative.

We have fought an adversary twice or thrice our size and have held our own against it fairly well each of the times. Not too many smaller Countries can claim that. We are not cowed down by you despite your attempts and this to me is not as bad as you and others try to make it out to be.

I would be insane if I believed that Pakistan Army, being the smaller and more limited in resources, would have a more different outcome in its conflicts with a much larger adversary.

Well..........the Indian Army has never fought its own Government; ergo it must be the lousiest Army on Planet Earth!
The PA has fought its own Govt. and never lost.......... that is precisely what I said in my post. And I commended that Combat Record.

 

[blain2]

No dude; he is not our man. He is the Al-Batroos around the neck of Pakistan; the guy who abandoned the NLI on Kargil and described them as a rag-tag, scruffy bunch of shalwar-kameez clad Mujaheddin.

As for the videos; yes all the videos are shown in India. The Bofors and MBRLs pounding the PA positions. Then the PA coming under a 'white-flag' to pick up abandoned NLI bodies, the IA burying the bodies that were still unclaimed, the bunkers abandoned by the retreating PA which had run out of all provisions but for sugar (some bodies of dead NLI which reached home in GB for burial had traces of only sugar in their mouths and tracts, there was nothing else for them to eat); so many videos.

And this means what? War is easy and we should sit and cry and not take your side on when we need to? It was a difficult mission, our men and officers fought with elan. They did not simply give up after being cornered, surrounded. That tells one a thing or two about our soldiery.

Each and everyone of them is a shaheed for us. He is honoured by us and we remember their sacrifices. To me, their sacrifices are no different than the ones we witnessed in the earlier wars.

 

[EzioAltaïr]

Have you developed Siachin too?
In picture, Telephone lines are running along the road.. this is very normal.


After officers were airdroped, for photo session and later scandals broke out.
Why don't you show the pictures of 'Nachiketa' his mig-29?

So the capture of one pilot in exchange for a Mountain.....

 

[danger007]

what is there to be proud? huh..... election stunt started...

 

[blain2]

Well..........the Indian Army has never fought its own Government; ergo it must be the lousiest Army on Planet Earth!
The PA has fought its own Govt. and never lost.......... that is precisely what I said in my post. And I commended that Combat Record.

PA has never fought its own government either. The takeover of the civilian government in Pakistan is conducted by a few senior generals. There is never any bloodshed. Its something that is a factor in our environment and only idealists would have issues with it. Yes you have a military that is subservient to the government. It has its pros. Ours is an evolving case.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Retard get this through your head, Kargil is controlled mostly by Pakistan as of today, only a few peaks are occupied by Indian army, all the critical ones including highest point is held by Pakistani army. Your Indian version of history says "all Pak intruders were evicted" that is far from the reality.

Try to understand instead of posting same idiotic lies over and over again about Pakistan losing in Kargil, when the reality is Pakistan won key positions in Kargil.

Why do you have this singular obsession with "retards" that it must slip in so easily into your discourse? Not politically correct.
Do you live in a community of "challenged individuals"?

 

[janon]

First of all, there is absolutely no proof that this exchange took place in the Kargil-Drass theater. You and countless others are going along with whatever the poster at youtube stated. There is no authentication of it being an exchange during the Kargil conflict and more so as being the "first" or "unprecedented" as you are claiming it to be. Secondly, Pakistan accepted bodies many times over as did your side. We have similar videos archived because such exchanges are usually documented. Lets not add any more drama to a simple video showing transfer of bodies under the common understanding between the two sides.

I did not claim it to be the "first" or "unprecedented". I said clearly in my post, which you replied to, that this is part of war, and part of how civilized soldiers are expected to behave.

Of course India has accepted the dead bodies of its soldiers, and I am happy we did so. I said this in the post that you replied to, and I repeat it - why this was noteworthy was because Pakistan at that time was refusing to do that.

It was a time when Pakistan was trying to pretend that it did not fight at all, that all the fighting was by "non state actors", by rogue mujahideen. That indeed was a first in the subcontinent's history, that a country would disown its own soldiers. That is why a video showing pak army accepting a few bodies is so significant.

Now if you are saying that that video is not from Kargil, that is another matter. Since there have been no other large scale conflicts between India and pak in that time frame, I can't imagine which other instance it can be from. The video could not have been from '71, could it?

I'm sure India accepted the bodies of its fallen warriors, and I am happy that it did so; not to do so would be an insult to their memory, and an outrage to their families. Luckily, India is not in the habit of venturing into ill conceived wars and then refusing to admit that it fought. India is not in the habit of sending soldiers to their deaths to satisfy the ego of its generals, and to pave the way for a political career for them, and then passing off the dead soldiers as rogue mujahideens.

So the reason Indians post that video here is not to orgasm at the sight of Pakistani dead bodies - as you rightly point out, India too has accepted the bodies of her fallen heroes - but to drive home the point that the pak army was playing a double game at that time, accepting some bodies, refusing to accept others, and overall, refusing to admit that it even fought a war.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

PA has never fought its own government either. The takeover of the civilian government in Pakistan is conducted by a few senior generals. There is never any bloodshed. Its something that is a factor in our environment and only idealists would have issues with it. Yes you have a military that is subservient to the government. It has its pros. Ours is a evolving case.

Six decades and still evolving? You have my commisserations.

 

[BATMAN]

So the capture of one pilot in exchange for a Mountain.....

So .. so ... so ... why keep changing the topics? Save your so so.. for your breakfast.

you showed some pictures, than i reminded you to show the picture of your fallen migs too!

We are not crazy like you that misbehave with prisoner... he was handed back in one piece!

 

[Armstrong]

And this means what? War is easy and we should sit and cry and not take your side on when we need to? It was a difficult mission, our men and officers fought with elan. They did not simply give up after being cornered, surrounded. That tells one a thing or two about our soldiery.

Each and everyone of them is a shaheed for us. He is honoured by us and we remember their sacrifices. To me, their sacrifices are no different than the ones we witnessed in the earlier wars.

But, yaraa, at the end of the day - Was it worth it ? Kargil, I mean...was it really worth it ?

India can't defeat us in battle because now we don't a liability called East-Pakistan attached to us but why go looking for trouble just for the heck of it ? Even after listening to numerous interviews by Musharraf & others, I still can't understand - Why in God's name did we start that at such an inopportune juncture in time ? The '80s when Siachin was going on - Fine, it would have made perfect sense...! But '99 out of the blue - why ?

 

[Windjammer]

Pakistan still occupies four kargil peaks

On July 26, the country celebrates Vijay Diwas to commemorate India’s victory in the Kargil war. But five years since the war, four strategic Indian posts in Kargil are still under Pakistani control and the government is not ready to spell out the truth, reports VK Shashikumar

Point 5353, Bunker Ridge, Saddle Ridge, Dalu Nag. These are posts in the Kargil sector that the soldiers of the Indian army knew incontrovertibly to be their own. They form a sort of memory map of disjointed emplacements along the treacherous mountains in the Kargil sector. Features that are joined in various military maps of the area by dotted lines.

Army sources confirmed to Tehelka that at least two of these features are under Pakistani control, thanks to botched up military operations and a government that wanted to hide the truth. The fate of the other two features, Dalu Nag and Bunker Ridge, is still shrouded in mystery.

“Dalu Nag is certainly in the Kargil sector, but it has a history of its own since the 1980s. It has nothing to do with Kargil operations. Some parts of Dalu Nag may have been occupied by them at that time,” former army chief Ved Prakash Malik told Tehelka. “I do not know what exact locations are being referred to by these names,” he added referring to Saddle Ridge and Bunker Ridge.

For the officers and jawans ordered to engage the intruders in a near-impossible battle, this is more humiliating than the government’s negation of the gains made by the army in the 1965 war. But then, Kargil would probably have never happened if the Tashkent Agreement was not signed in 1965. Even in 1999, India gave Pakistan a walkover and enabled it to retain territory that was always under Indian control. And then, the government misled the nation that Kargil had been cleared of all Pakistani intruders.

Former defence minister George Fernandes, argued that the LoC runs over Pt 5353 and, therefore, was unoccupied by either countries till Kargil happened. A point which is not true.

Ironically, though it was the bjp-led government that hid the truth, the Congress-led upa government is also reluctant to clarify. Tehelka sent a questionnaire to Defence Minister Pranab Mukherjee asking him to spell out the truth about the four posts. But at the time of going to print, he had not replied.

Meanwhile, within the army at the level of middle and junior level officers and the brave jawans, there is discontent. Any army unit that has done its tour of duty in Kargil after the war in the summer of 1999 has heard about the secrets locked up in the forbidding heights.

Perhaps it is painful for the army top brass to admit that Operation Vijay was not really an unalloyed victory.



Tehelka - The People's Paper

 

[janon]

Pakistan still occupies four kargil peaks

On July 26, the country celebrates Vijay Diwas to commemorate India’s victory in the Kargil war. But five years since the war, four strategic Indian posts in Kargil are still under Pakistani control and the government is not ready to spell out the truth, reports VK Shashikumar

Point 5353, Bunker Ridge, Saddle Ridge, Dalu Nag. These are posts in the Kargil sector that the soldiers of the Indian army knew incontrovertibly to be their own. They form a sort of memory map of disjointed emplacements along the treacherous mountains in the Kargil sector. Features that are joined in various military maps of the area by dotted lines.

Army sources confirmed to Tehelka that at least two of these features are under Pakistani control, thanks to botched up military operations and a government that wanted to hide the truth. The fate of the other two features, Dalu Nag and Bunker Ridge, is still shrouded in mystery.

“Dalu Nag is certainly in the Kargil sector, but it has a history of its own since the 1980s. It has nothing to do with Kargil operations. Some parts of Dalu Nag may have been occupied by them at that time,” former army chief Ved Prakash Malik told Tehelka. “I do not know what exact locations are being referred to by these names,” he added referring to Saddle Ridge and Bunker Ridge.

For the officers and jawans ordered to engage the intruders in a near-impossible battle, this is more humiliating than the government’s negation of the gains made by the army in the 1965 war. But then, Kargil would probably have never happened if the Tashkent Agreement was not signed in 1965. Even in 1999, India gave Pakistan a walkover and enabled it to retain territory that was always under Indian control. And then, the government misled the nation that Kargil had been cleared of all Pakistani intruders.

Former defence minister George Fernandes, argued that the LoC runs over Pt 5353 and, therefore, was unoccupied by either countries till Kargil happened. A point which is not true.

Ironically, though it was the bjp-led government that hid the truth, the Congress-led upa government is also reluctant to clarify. Tehelka sent a questionnaire to Defence Minister Pranab Mukherjee asking him to spell out the truth about the four posts. But at the time of going to print, he had not replied.

Meanwhile, within the army at the level of middle and junior level officers and the brave jawans, there is discontent. Any army unit that has done its tour of duty in Kargil after the war in the summer of 1999 has heard about the secrets locked up in the forbidding heights.

Perhaps it is painful for the army top brass to admit that Operation Vijay was not really an unalloyed victory.



Tehelka - The People's Paper

Just as I predicted in post #67. I even mentioned you by name, expecting you to come up with this.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

And this means what? War is easy and we should sit and cry and not take your side on when we need to? It was a difficult mission, our men and officers fought with elan. They did not simply give up after being cornered, surrounded. That tells one a thing or two about our soldiery.

Each and everyone of them is a shaheed for us. He is honoured by us and we remember their sacrifices. To me, their sacrifices are no different than the ones we witnessed in the earlier wars.

But that was not the narrative in 1999. They were not described as soldiers or anything like that. Musharraff used the term Mujaheddin and your FO said that they were unknown entities. The term "Non State Actors" was not yet fashionable.