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'I am aware of what the Indian Embassy is doing in Jalalabad and Kandahar': Musharraf

The real thing is Pakistan is famous for saying one thing today and denying that the very next day. Nawaz Sharif when out of power said that Kargil was planned by Musharaf. Now Musharaf has said that he knew what is going on in Indian embassy in Afghanistan..so what did he do about it when he was in power. Just Chill guys..he was just addressing to people of Pakistan from India..nothing else. It was a real sight when Mualana Mehmood Madani said Indian Muslims don't need his advice.:lol:

Yes! And it was an even better sight when Musharraf put him in his place and told him that he'd take his words back if the Maulana was OK with the current sorry little condition/situation he and his counterparts are living in.
 
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"Pakistanis desperately want to see India as an equal when it comes to sponsorship of terrorism..."

Yes, I believe so. There's value on many levels in that sort of linkage. You've pointed most of them out.

As I said before, no amount of revisionism and distortion changes the fact that the Indians have and are sponsoring terrorism in Pakistan. Indian analysts themselves have admitted it in the past, and here is another confirming the statements by Musharraf:
For the past one year such activities being undertaken by the DIA wer, in fact, openly discussed by both serving and retired senior military officials at both the Armed Forces Gymkhana and the United Services Institution within the National Capital Region. It, therefore, did not come as a great surprise to South Block when Brig Mehta was specifically targetted for assassination by the Pakistan Army's Peshawar-based 324 Military Intelligence Battalion .
http://www.defence.pk/forums/strategic-geopolitical-issues/23146-too-many-secrets.html

Demonizing Pakistan and painting its concerns as 'paranoia' or some sort of psychological 'deflection' may make people such as you and Energon feel warm and fuzzy inside, but refusal to acknowledge the problem only serves to perpetuate the issues that prevent comprehensive peace.

The real ignorance, deflection and dishonesty here is not being exercised by Pakistanis.
 
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Thanks. We've reached an impasse.

Musharraf mentioned Kandahar and Jalalabad and didn't specify further. Nothing more. Your blog mentions a defense attache in Kabul with cheque-writing privileges. So? Until now, you, and this blog, I'd never heard of the DIA. Neither had anybody else here including you. Everything is blamed on RAW, remember? Isn't this what we've been told with mantra-like rhythm?

I re-iterate-your government has now had two opportunities to present your findings to the very highest levels of our government. I don't know what was shown nor what we said privately but I do know that I've not read ONE reference by a senior American official that this has become a concern of ours.

The stabilization of Pakistan is immensely important to my nation. We've MUCH invested across the border in Afghanistan. America is about to extend $7.5 B in civil aid to Pakistan beyond what we've given heretofore. We allocate a HUGE portion of our foreign military sales and aid to your nation. I suspect we'd be interested to know of those actions by other nations which endanger that investment.

OTOH, I'm sure that your convictions about our moral-bankruptcy will allow you to believe otherwise.
 
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Thanks. We've reached an impasse.

Musharraf mentioned Kandahar and Jalalabad and didn't specify further. Nothing more. Your blog mentions a defense attache in Kabul with cheque-writing privileges. So? Until now, you, and this blog, I'd never heard of the DIA. Neither had anybody else here including you. Everything is blamed on RAW, remember? Isn't this what we've been told with mantra-like rhythm?

I re-iterate-your government has now had two opportunities to present your findings to the very highest levels of our government. I don't know what was shown nor what we said privately but I do know that I've not read ONE reference by a senior American official that this has become a concern of ours.

The stabilization of Pakistan is immensely important to my nation. We've MUCH invested across the border in Afghanistan. America is about to extend $7.5 B in civil aid to Pakistan beyond what we've given heretofore. We allocate a HUGE portion of our foreign military sales and aid to your nation. I suspect we'd be interested to know of those actions by other nations which endanger that investment.

OTOH, I'm sure that your convictions about our moral-bankruptcy will allow you to believe otherwise.

Keep living in ignorance and denial so you can 'feel better' about your nations morally bankrupt and duplicitous policies.

We have an extremely credible Indian defense analyst who has been writing analysis for years, and has even posted on ultra nationalistic Indian forums like Bharat Rak. CONFIRMING that the Indians were doling out money to Baluch terrorists. We have a former Bush intelligence official confirming Indian support for militants in the North West, and even those disagreeing with him admitting to Indian involvement in Baluchistan. officially we have both Reidel and Schauer arguing for more transparency in Indian operations in Afghanistan - understandably less direct statements given US interests in India, but reading between the lines, keeping in mind information presented by the other sources, the implications of Schauer and Reidel's statements are clear.

This is not a case of my government presenting its findings, I posted the relevant information stating it already has done that - this is a case of the US blatantly ignoring those concerns and findings in its pursuit of a strategic alliance and other interests with India.

You couldn't get this stuff to hit you in the face to be any clearer. Your credibility is going further and further south because you are incapable of admitting that the GoP and PA were correct on this issue all along and that the US Admin. did indeed turn a deaf ear to legitimate concerns. You are incapable of admitting fault.
 
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Whats the big deal anyways. Pakistan has always doled out money(and training/radicalizing) to indian seperatists. Why wouldnt pakistan expect the same back from India(or any other country for that matter)?
 
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Whats the big deal anyways. Pakistan has always doled out money(and training/radicalizing) to indian seperatists. Why wouldnt pakistan expect the same back from India(or any other country for that matter)?

The 'big deal' is that the West has blatantly refused to see the Indian reciprocity in this 'game' and painted Pakistan as the sole problem.

The US cannot help resolve the issues plaguing South Asia and help bring about peace if it is blatantly supporting one side and demonizing the other.

Notice that I have not complained one iota over the fact that India is supporting the Baluch terrorists - most Pakistanis already believe this. It is the hypocrisy and blatant double standards that I am criticizing.
 
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The 'big deal' is that the West has blatantly refused to see the Indian reciprocity in this 'game' and painted Pakistan as the sole problem.

The US cannot help resolve the issues plaguing South Asia and help bring about peace if it is blatantly supporting one side and demonizing the other.

Notice that I have not complained one iota over the fact that India is supporting the Baluch terrorists - most Pakistanis already believe this. It is the hypocrisy and blatant double standards that I am criticizing.

why would they?..everyone knows that Pakistan has followed thousand cut in India for years and treated afghanistan like its own property. Pakistan started this. Most westerners would actually be wondering why is India and Afghanistan just taking this lying down. You would agree with me that if it was the west they would have responded in far more aggressive manner. Pakistan is just being returned its favour in kind. There is no hypocrisy.
 
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why would they?..everyone knows that Pakistan has followed thousand cut in India for years and treated afghanistan like its own property. Pakistan started this. Most westerners would actually be wondering why is India and Afghanistan just taking this lying down. You would agree with me that if it was the west they would have responded in far more aggressive manner. Pakistan is just being returned its favour in kind. There is no hypocrisy.

Oh there is plenty of hypocrisy here.

You obviously have not bothered to read Sengupta's entire article carefully or his subsequent remarks in the comments section.

I talked about them on the original thread his article is posted on.

He clearly states India was involved in supporting the Mujahideen factions that later became the Northern Alliance, so India has been involved in waging a proxy war in Afghanistan for as long as Pakistan has.

Secondly, India is the one that initiated this whole process of 'breaking apart the other' and 'a thousand cuts' with its support for the Pashtunsitan movement through Afghanistan, the baloch insurgency and of course East Pakistan.

So anyway you look at it the Indians have done a lot of damage to Pakistan and the region, just as you claim Pakistan has. Definitely a lot more damage to Pakistan than Pakistan has to India (though Indians would argue that was not from lack of trying). So pointing out the hypocrisy and double standards is completely valid.

Please read through the original thread and comment further there.
 
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Morally bankrupt, eh? Well...thanks for taking our money and perpetuating our morally bankrupt foreign policy choices. You've been the best, most corrupt collaborators of our global conquest objectives we could EVER hope to find.:agree:

For a moment I thought you were going to show some REAL backbone and principle and suggest that you don't need a penny of our aid given our indifference to your plainly massive grievance. It's only because of our moral bankruptcy that we WON'T see your POV.

It's only because of your moral bankruptcy that your palm remains extended.

You've no case that interests America.

Please don't shoot the messenger.:)
 
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Morally bankrupt, eh? Well...thanks for taking our money and perpetuating our morally bankrupt foreign policy choices. You've been the best, most corrupt collaborators of our global conquest objectives we could EVER hope to find.:agree:

For a moment I thought you were going to show some REAL backbone and principle and suggest that you don't need a penny of our aid given our indifference to your plainly massive grievance. It's only because of our moral bankruptcy that we WON'T see your POV.

It's only because of your moral bankruptcy that your palm remains extended.

You've no case that interests America.

Please don't shoot the messenger.:)
Your nation has no morals or backbone other than to stab anyone it can in the back to further its interests.

The only case that interests you is one that lines your pockets and aligns with your interests. Your nonsensical tirades about 'aid' are just as patently absurd and distortions as before - Pakistan has lost billions every year in this war, lost lives at the hands of the Afghans and Indians your presence has sheltered and helped those massacring innocents and sponsoring terrorism in Pakistan.

The money we have received is a drop in the bucket compared to the losses inflicted by your nations actions, and is in addition primarily for services rendered in support of operations by a nation that was sheltering those killing us. Keep living in denial even when the evidence stares you in the face. You are a perfect example of how extreme patriotism blinds one to seeing reason and truth or care for what is right and just. A blatant disregard for facts so long as they do not agree with your world view.

A cold war relic you are, stuck in that perpetual existence of 'Damn it, America is good even if I have to dress up what is clearly sh*t to make it appear good'.

Enjoy your morally decrepit existence. :cheers:
 
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So does that mean in the calculus of your progressive and new morality that you still want that aid?:lol:

If so I far better understand the moral underpinnings of your SWAT negotiations. Principled!

I applaud you, sir.
 
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So does that mean in the calculus of your progressive and new morality that you still want that aid?:lol:

If so I far better understand the moral underpinnings of your SWAT negotiations. Principled!

I applaud you, sir.

what took u so long to understand...??:coffee:
 
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Morally bankrupt, eh? Well...thanks for taking our money and perpetuating our morally bankrupt foreign policy choices. You've been the best, most corrupt collaborators of our global conquest objectives we could EVER hope to find.:agree:

For a moment I thought you were going to show some REAL backbone and principle and suggest that you don't need a penny of our aid given our indifference to your plainly massive grievance. It's only because of our moral bankruptcy that we WON'T see your POV.

It's only because of your moral bankruptcy that your palm remains extended.

You've no case that interests America.

Please don't shoot the messenger.:)

So its global conquest after all...:)

Regarding moral high ground, i guess none of the parties can really tread this path given that all countries have been involved with covert operations to safeguard their interests. With this acceptance all have to give space and all have to realize that just as they can cause damage to each other and still be able to negotiate so should the opportunity be given to those whom we are fighting against.

It is a natural thing for any nation to safeguard its interests but with the advent of modern terrorism and its ability to seep into the foundation of any militant movement; the backlash of such covert operations can be severe on the puppet masters and their enemies alike.

Many of the combatants in the war on terror are not good and evil in the classical sense and refusing to work with most of them will keep fueling the fires of War. No War can go on indefinitely and eventually the locals will have to make their decisions based on their experiences and their code of what is wrong and what is right.

Most of the Taliban in Afghanistan are in their minds fighting an invasion by a foreign nation and in this they are supported by majority of afghans. They also have support in Afghanistan because of their ability to implement some form of order in a land where every drug lord and warlord had his own set of laws and was god in his realm.
Taliban did tow a very hardliner approach but the problem is that the people despite being unhappy about many steps were at least appreciative of security and uniformity of law on all people (personal experience of mine in my communication with many friends from tribal areas whose comments i trust as fair and honest).
The fact that most of us fail to understand this phenomenon is purely because we have not been subject to such poverty, insecurity, lawlessness, injustice and inequality in our daily lives as people in a war torn and desolate land.
With time there was a hope that slowly the will of the people will prevail and reforms shall be made like in Iran and even Saudi Arabia to follow more moderate path which makes most people satisfied.
In order to survive the the ruling party has to make changes to accommodate the just demands of its public, it takes time but it happens (especially if the public is aware and expressive) since Islam is moderate and flexible in its nature.
With the tragic 9/11 incident and the tragic aftermath in terms of Afghan conflict this hope has now been lost with the exodus of a government which firmly controlled the country.

On the other hand most people in the western world believe in T for Terrorism and T for Taliban philosophy and see US engaging sheer evil in Terrorismistan!
I wish it was all that simple...

I am not a supporter of Taliban here but just saying that if they are all declared the primary enemy instead of Al Qaeda Terrorists then the war is not going to be conclusive.
There are many factions now associating themselves with Taliban and some are miscreants/outlaws only whereas many are respected Afghan leaders who have support of local people.
If we brand everyone a terrorist then it cannot be productive.

On a national level all countries need to enter into dialogue in this entire South Asian region and try to resolve major issues and only then we can claim to have played a part in eliminating terrorism.
In every country in this region there are separatist movements and we all need to realize this and work collectively to resolve differences and address the grievances of each nation in a dignified manner.
US should try to genuinely help in diplomatically resolving the major differences amongst the nations in this region which still remains a distant dream.
That shall be an act well remembered by the people rather than any other form of aid.
Will US play such a part especially since peace means less spending on military hardware for all the countries etc. and stability would eventually lead to much stronger governments with much more independent policies?
I am hoping it US takes this nobler path and there is an end to this war which is spreading everywhere and making our future very dark and gloomy.

I do not want my children to be afraid of going outside their home for fear of bombs and bullets, something which i have been faced with recently being a citizen of Pakistan.
Only now do i realize the pain, suffering and hatred even one unjust killing of a family may bring about, not all men are evil and many men who turn to violence do so as a result of pain and suffering they go through.
The world stood watching when many innocent civilians were killed in the Israeli Palestinian conflict. Will this solve the problem or breed more blind hatred?
Put yourselves in the shoes of a father or mother who lose their children to bullets, bombs, missiles. Will sanity prevail in their minds? Will they not be consumed by blind hatred?
I pray to god that none of us go through this torture ever for i cannot even imagine anything more painful than for a parent to have to bury their child.

Is it that difficult to understand that blind hatred and brute force will not help us win any moral victory in this War?
 
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As usual this entire thread has gone down the crapper. No room left for debate, and no point in trying either I guess.

Ok, so here's my last public post on this matter: As I've mentioned in my earlier post, this entire region has consistently been marred in covert war since its formation (current nation-state form), and everyone is either already in chaoots with proxies, or are always attempting to do so. The point however is that not all these relationships are alike and not all the parties have a relationship with terrorism as Pakistan does. The dynamics of the India and Pakistan models are vastly dissimilar, and the problems that have recently emerged are specifically those in relation to Pakistan's (miscalculated) approach to this covert conflict.

What any one of us has to say, think or feel is irrelevant; what does matter is the general consensus among the powers that be (at a global level)... which unanimously states that Pakistan is the epi-center of terrorism, a condition that has significantly contributed towards the general downward trajectory of its own stability and the security condition of the region and the world at large. It is foolish to assume that people just came up with this because of some innate desire to "malign the image of Pakistan." There are many genuine experts who have been studying all of this for decades and take cues from multiple intelligence sources which monitor the situation in real time prior to coming up with recommendations/ hypothesis/ analysis or what have you.

P.S. Prasun Sengupta isn't a journalist or analyst per se; he doesn't even reside in India let alone have access to sensitive Indian intelligence sources. He like Shiv Aroor or all of the people over at Bharat Rakshak are primarily enthusiasts who keep private blogs. Real journos do not need to keep random blogs, they get their works published in credible journals and their expertise is sought by established governmental institutions and policy groups of significance. Prasun Sengupta does not fall into this category. If one has to constantly refer to random blog entries obscure websites in search of "eureka moments" then obviously something is seriously amiss.

Either way it doesn't matter.

S2 said:
Correct. Now weigh this against the certainty of 1.) the GoP having presented it's accumulated case against India to both the Bush and Obama administration and, 2.) the available commentary by senior U.S. officials to that end.

What do you believe are our thoughts on the power and relevance of the Pakistani dossier?
The amount of information available on this matter is highly limited (at least that from sources I consider credible). What I do know is that people are (and have been) watching closely, and there are limits to what we (the US) find acceptable vis a vis India's involvement in Afghanistan; direct sponsorship of terrorism certainly doesn't qualify. The details on the inner workings (tacit agreements, internal checks etc) are unknown so any hypothesizing certainly has its limitations. I do nonetheless have some ideas and if you're really interested I can PM you something.

cheers
 
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