Huge Projects of Türkiye

[AUz]

sorry I didn't mean to offend your fragile feelings

I'm not convinced that this project has anything to do with ecology. Do you have anything to back that up?

Because all other projects was about cutting down the northern forests of Istanbul.
a few bird species are about to go completely extinct due to the third airport construction.
and Terkos lake is at risk
that's serious shit.

You need to take into account the ROI (Return on Investment) for Turkey's decision makers.

The crazy canal project (if completed effectively and timely) would spark unprecedented growth in (European) Istanbul and even beyond (Western most frontiers of East Thrace). Just imagine the value of water-side property alone that will be build around the canal after its completion. The property alone will be worth billions of dollars and moreover, the land's commercial value itself will sky rocket. So with initial investments of 10 to 15 billion, the Turkish government (ideally) would be able to generate wealth that's much more than $15 billion. You see, that's a very lucrative investment for economic growth, positive ROI, and expansion of Istanbul itself. And this is without taking into account the revenue canal will generate through shipping--I might be low b/c of Bosphorus, as you pointed out, but still--any revenue is a plus. (All of the above can be said about the third airport as well).

Also, consider political realities. Investment in energy wouldn't give you the "show-case" tool for electoral politics. Building a massive project that generates growth and expansion will be a great asset to sell to the electorate to get their support and votes. Moreover, the electorate can "see" the work done by AKP in shape of the massive canal and waterside property. With energy, you can't see much. So therefore, even from political point of view--it makes sense why AKP would go for this project.

Lastly, I don't know how big of an issue energy is in Turkey. Do you guys get "loadshedding" in Turkey? As in, do you have regular power-cuts in various parts of Turkey? And oh, if I was a Turk and I didn't want the canal--I'd rather have 10B invested in nuclear power plants instead of investing them in solar energy.

Nuclear power is the future of humanity--the most reliable, cost effective way to generate energy for civilization's consumption.

 

[LegionnairE]

You need to take into account the ROI (Return on Investment) for Turkey's decision makers.

The crazy canal project (if completed effectively and timely) would spark unprecedented growth in (European) Istanbul and even beyond (Western most frontiers of East Thrace). Just imagine the value of water-side property alone that will be build around the canal after its completion. The property alone will be worth billions of dollars and moreover, the land's commercial value itself will sky rocket. So with initial investments of 10 to 15 billion, the Turkish government (ideally) would be able to generate wealth that's much more than $15 billion. You see, that's a very lucrative investment for economic growth, positive ROI, and expansion of Istanbul itself. And this is without taking into account the revenue canal will generate through shipping--I might be low b/c of Bosphorus, as you pointed out, but still--any revenue is a plus. (All of the above can be said about the third airport as well).

I'd like you to explain why high property prices are a good thing. It's already very difficult to buy property in Istanbul, prices are high enough. Average rent is above minimum wage. Higher those prices get more difficult it is for us to get by.

as for the airport... no I don't think so.. residential property prices would go down near an airport not the other way around. Nobody would want to live in that noisy environment. as for the revenue of the canal... it might be in the negative... I'm not sure what the maintenance costs will be.

Lastly, I don't know how big of an issue energy is in Turkey. Do you guys get "loadshedding" in Turkey? As in, do you have regular power-cuts in various parts of Turkey? And oh, if I was a Turk and I didn't want the canal--I'd rather have 10B invested in nuclear power plants instead of investing them in solar energy.

Nuclear power is the future of humanity--the most reliable, cost effective way to generate energy for civilization's consumption.

right now it's not a big deal... we get power outages like once a week or less. But if Russia cuts the natural gas we'll lose about %20 of the power grid. That's a big weakness that leaves us dependant on outside. And if that happens, if people can't heat their homes and lose electricity AKP goes away.

Why I'm pushing for the solar power is that it has literally no maintenance costs, no waste management problem and the technology is much cheaper to acquire.

I think we could develop our national photovoltaic panels right away. But for the nuclear power we'd have to deal with foreign companies like mitsubishi. Because it's much more difficult to acquire the technology.

 

[KingWest]

sorry I didn't mean to offend your fragile feelings

I'm not convinced that this project has anything to do with ecology. Do you have anything to back that up?

Because all other projects was about cutting down the northern forests of Istanbul.
a few bird species are about to go completely extinct due to the third airport construction.
and Terkos lake is at risk
that's serious shit.

Like another member said, we can slowdown traffic going trough the Bosporus. This way ships can move faster trough the canal & instead of losing money while waiting, most ships will chose to pay money to travel trough the faster route (the canal), and save money by doing so.
We cant force someone to use the canal, but we can give them enough incentives to pay the fee and use the canal. We can also have bigger ships passing trough the canal.
Turkiye will gain money doing so, it will have less traffic going trough Istanbul. (& face it, its not safe to have so much traffic going right trough the city), the new city will absorb the population that was going to live in Istanbul etc etc.
The project has lots of positive effects.

Interesting :
Kanal Istanbul: Within 7 Years US Aircraft Carriers Will Enter the Black Sea | Newropeans Magazine

 

[LegionnairE]

Like another member said, we can slowdown traffic going trough the Bosporus. This way ships can move faster trough the canal & instead of losing money while waiting, most ships will chose to pay money to travel trough the faster route (the canal), and save money by doing so.
We cant force someone to use the canal, but we can give them enough incentives to pay the fee and use the canal.
Turkiye will gain money doing so, it will have less traffic going trough Istanbul. (& face it, its not safe to have so much traffic going right trough the city), the new city will absorb the population that was going to live in Istanbul etc etc.
The project has lots of positive effects.

you see, suez canal is making money for a reason, ships go through it because there's a huge fucking continet to go around if they don't. Even that doesn't make Egypt rich.. they are much poorer than us.

money earned from istanbul canal will be pennies compared to suez or mexico canals... It'll earn those 10 billion dollars back in 10 billion years it's a dead investment

In what earth do you think that's more important than solving Turkey's energy dependency which is a hell of a bigger emergency. Which we're doing nothing other than waiting for TANAP to be finished.

And generating electricity through natural gas is fucking dumb. It's probably the most expensive way to generate electricity despite falling gas prices.

 

[DemirkanTR]

I'd like you to explain why high property prices are a good thing. It's already very difficult to buy property in Istanbul, prices are high enough. Average rent is above minimum wage. Higher those prices get more difficult it is for us to get by.

as for the airport... no I don't think so.. residential property prices would go down near an airport not the other way around. Nobody would want to live in that noisy environment. as for the revenue of the canal... it might be in the negative... I'm not sure what the maintenance costs will be.


right now it's not a big deal... we get power outages like once a week or less. But if Russia cuts the natural gas we'll lose about %20 of the power grid. That's a big weakness that leaves us dependant on outside. And if that happens, if people can't heat their homes and lose electricity AKP goes away.

Why I'm pushing for the solar power is that it has literally no maintenance costs, no waste management problem and the technology is much cheaper to acquire.

I think we could develop our national photovoltaic panels right away. But for the nuclear power we'd have to deal with foreign companies like mitsubishi. Because it's much more difficult to acquire the technology.

With this post I am convinced that you don't know what you are talking about!

 

[KingWest]

you see, suez canal is making money for some reason, ships go through it because there's a huge fucking continet to go around if they don't. Even that doesn't make Egypt rich.. they are much poorer than us.

money earned from istanbul canal will be pennies compared to suez or mexico canals... It'll earn those 10 billion dollars back in 10 billion years it's a dead investment

In what earth do you think that's more important than solving Turkey's energy dependency which is a hell of a bigger emergency. Which we're doing nothing other than waiting for TANAP to be finished.

The montreaux convention will lose its value after this canal and will give Turkey more selfesteam. It will earn money because ships containing oil and gas will keep using the Bosporus. It will ease up the tension in Istanbul by creating a new city. Istanbul is a nightmare right now with 20 million people living in it. The canal will help by making Istanbul livable again.

 

[LegionnairE]

The montreaux convention will lose its value after this canal and will give Turkey more selfesteam. It will earn money because ships containing oil and gas will keep using the Bosporus. It will ease up the tension in Istanbul by creating a new city. Istanbul is a nightmare right now with 20 million people living in it. The canal will help by making Istanbul livable again.

that's entirely false.

With this post I am convinced that you don't know what you are talking about!

why you see some logical fallacy? please expose it

 

[KingWest]

that's entirely false.

why you see some logical fallacy? please expose it

It is true, read the article I posted a couple of posts back. The montreax convention can be bypassed easily after this canal

edit: Kanal Istanbul: Within 7 Years US Aircraft Carriers Will Enter the Black Sea | Newropeans Magazine

 

[Hurshid Celebi]

It is true

If a empty super tanker gets wrecked accidentally Dardanelles are blocked for months

 

[KingWest]

If a empty super tanker gets wrecked accidentally Dardanelles are blocked for months

A super tanker cant even pass the Bosporus, it is to small for that. But if an oil tanker or some sort ever had an accident in Istanbul, than the whole city would be faced with a nightmare.

 

[xenon54 out]

that's entirely false.

Well its not entirely false though, the convention will still affect bosporus but not the new canal, Turkey can theoretically let any military ship pass regarless of its tonnage, this means US carrier groups would have access to Black sea which will be a major pain for Russia if this happens.

 

[ArsalanKhan21]

It is true, read the article I posted a couple of posts back. The montreax convention can be bypassed easily after this canal

Bosphorus is choking point and huge tankers pose grave environmental threat to Istanbul. This Canal will complement Bosphorus and not replace it. The Montreax Convention will remain in place for Bosphorus only.

 

[Hurshid Celebi]

http://www.ogj.com/articles/2002/11...age-through-bosporus-dardanelles-straits.html

Turkey restricts supertanker passage through Bosporus, Dardanelles straits.

Now, Turkey has initiated a policy banning supertanker traffic through the straits and severely restricting the passage of smaller tankers carrying dangerous cargo, including chemicals, LPG, LNG, and explosives.

The Caspian News Agency reported that Turkey has prevented supertankers from Russia and Kazakhstan from exporting oil through the straits for the past month, citing its new regulations limiting tankers to 200 m in length to pass through the narrow, 30 km long Bosporus and to 250 m in length for the Dardanelles.

 

[LegionnairE]

It is true, read the article I posted a couple of posts back. The montreax convention can be bypassed easily after this canal

edit: Kanal Istanbul: Within 7 Years US Aircraft Carriers Will Enter the Black Sea | Newropeans Magazine

I didn't want to read this at first when the article began by stating Erdogan as the "president of Turkey for life" but I did

according to this we'll stil have to let any civilian ship go through bosphorus freely... so montreux convention is still in effect, which means there won't be any significant money made from the ships passing through the canal. Which means my point is still valid.

More importantly, whole world is working to free themselves of dependency on fossil fuels, oil and gas prices are dropping and it's probable that the number of tankers that go through the bosphorus every year will decrease not increase.

Well its not entirely false though, the convention will still affect bosporus but not the new canal, Turkey can theoretically let any military ship pass regarless of its tonnage, this means US carrier groups would have access to Black sea which will be a major pain for Russia if this happens.

do we really need that? aren't we a big enough military force to be a pain in Russia's ***?

A super tanker cant even pass the Bosporus, it is to small for that. But if an oil tanker or some sort ever had an accident in Istanbul, than the whole city would be faced with a nightmare.

A supertanker doesn't need to pass through bosphorus... Russia is hardly Saudi Arabia.

And even if such a thing was necessary why do we give a **** about Russia's oil and gas imports?

 

[KingWest]

I didn't want to read this at first when the article began by stating Erdogan as the "president of Turkey for life" but I did

according to this we'll stil have to let any civilian ship go through bosphorus freely... so montreux convention is still in effect, which means there won't be any significant money made from the ships passing through the canal. Which means my point is still valid.

More importantly, whole world is working to free themselves of dependency on fossil fuels, oil and gas prices are dropping and it's probable that the number of tankers that go through the bosphorus every year will decrease not increase.

What you dont want to understand is

"This way ships can move faster trough the canal & instead of losing money while waiting, most ships will chose to pay money to travel trough the faster route (the canal), and save money by doing so.
We cant force someone to use the canal, but we can give them enough incentives to pay the fee and use the canal. We can also have bigger ships passing trough the canal.
Turkiye will gain money doing so "
And like I said, the Montreaux convention will still be in effect, but it will be easy to bypass it making it de facto no more valid.